Since only a minority of Christians are Calvinist, I'd say that this "teaching" is not as clear as you make it out to be.
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Do any Christians disagree with this...
- Thread starter HoldemDB9
- Start date
whitnessforhim
Messianic Believer
I think we are mssing each other here because our starting foundations are not the same. God created the world perfect that is and was His will for us and the Earth. Sin, death and distruction entered it by man's choice alone. It's through that continued choice of rejection that we now have societies where God is less likely to be heard of or talked about. Its not God's will that people don't believe in Him. It's not His will that children are born into non-believing cultures. How is this God's fault? Unless you believe we don't have free will.
HoldemDB9
Active Member
For the sake of the argument I will agree with your starting foundation of the earth and that free will exists, AND STILL, the God you described is unjust. I've shown you how this God is unjust twice now. 3rd time lucky...
If God is going to allow people to go to hell for things which were NOT THEIR FAULT, then this is UNFAIR.
If God does not give all an equal chance to get to heaven then this is UNFAIR.
It DOES NOT MATTER how this smaller chance came to be, the fact is that some people for NO REASON are getting a smaller chance at entering heaven, therefore your God is unfair.
For the 3rd time, you've admitted that your God is unjust, what do you have to say to this?
Just_me_Mike
Well-Known Member
Text book case of taking something out of context.
Holdem, as you take those lines from other posts we have written in, you fail to see I said to me this may seem unfair, and it is unfair in our eyes. However when we learn the truth about God's plan from the beginning to the end, we simply see he chose a group from the foundation of the world that he would rescue with Jesus.
He set up a law "if you sin, you die". He would be perfectly in his rights to kill everyone. Though willing to show his love, he came down to demonstrate his mercy for those whom he predestined to save.
At this point you and I can say this is unfair, because not everyone has been chosen. I understand where you are coming from, but the fact still remains it doesn't matter where his children or chosen are at, he will find them and save them. Than it doesn't matter if they are, in the woods or desert or Washington DC.
In the end it is his creation to do as he will, and I realy don't see how any of this violates God's laws that he setup.
Holdem, as you take those lines from other posts we have written in, you fail to see I said to me this may seem unfair, and it is unfair in our eyes. However when we learn the truth about God's plan from the beginning to the end, we simply see he chose a group from the foundation of the world that he would rescue with Jesus.
He set up a law "if you sin, you die". He would be perfectly in his rights to kill everyone. Though willing to show his love, he came down to demonstrate his mercy for those whom he predestined to save.
At this point you and I can say this is unfair, because not everyone has been chosen. I understand where you are coming from, but the fact still remains it doesn't matter where his children or chosen are at, he will find them and save them. Than it doesn't matter if they are, in the woods or desert or Washington DC.
In the end it is his creation to do as he will, and I realy don't see how any of this violates God's laws that he setup.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I agree, but then we've had this discussion before, haven't we?
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HoldemDB9
Active Member
Taking things out of context? LOL, I don't think so. You said that you do not believe that God is unfair and I clearly pointed out the times when you have said that you believe God is unfair, simple as that. YOU'RE the one who said it.
Yet again here you admit that your God is unfair. And you keep saying after this "but he can do whatever he wants", as if that suddenly makes it fair - but it does not.
So there you go, how many times do I have to tell you. You believe that God is unfair, therefore this thread DOES NOT APPLY TO YOU.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
But that's really beside the point, sojourner. Obviously there are millions who, if given the choice, would prefer to be Muslim, Hindu or Buddhist. The question is, to what degree to they have a choice?
Just_me_Mike
Well-Known Member
Hi, in the light of this topic, I have just been making the point the bible use language of predestination many times. and if everything is predestined what does chance have to do with anything?
I was attempting to "teach" my views.
So it seems holdems argument or stance for a better word is only valid against someone who reads the bible and believes we have a choice.
If that was truly what the bible taught than I would be right next to holdem in agreemant. The bible does not teach we have a choice though.
It doesn't?
Exactly what was the point of Christ's sacrifice, the Bible or the Church if people have no choice at all in their salvation? If God's going to save who he wants and damn who he wants regardless of human action, it seems like it was all a lot of wasted effort and bother for nothing.
Edit: and Jesus' language in the Gospels indicates a choice (Matt. 7:13-14):
Finding is a personal action. Being led to something is not the same as finding it. And if we have no choice in the matter, then why is Jesus counselling the people to make the right choice?
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Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Huh? What do you believe the Bible has to say on the matter?
Just_me_Mike
Well-Known Member
holdem, It is all good. I can see what you are saying. I guess before I leave you alone on this thread, I would like to say you are making debate against and idea that is foreign to the language of the bible. Instead you are debating with an idea that was developed completely outside of the bible.
You are obviously intelligent so it would seem you could get more out of discussing such issues with someone who can walk you through the bible. I may not be that person, but I do know this debate is not against anything found in the bible.
Peace out man, and respect
whitnessforhim
Messianic Believer
Ok one more time and then I really, really gotta work today
Regardless of who you are, where you were born or how many "Christians" are around you we all have the same chance of going to heaven. Its not dependent on how great those around you evangelize you its dependent on your inner rejection of the knowledge of God that he created us all with.
HoldemDB9
Active Member
Ok one more time and then I really, really gotta work today
Regardless of who you are, where you were born or how many "Christians" are around you we all have the same chance of going to heaven. Its not dependent on how great those around you evangelize you its dependent on your inner rejection of the knowledge of God that he created us all with.
Is this the same person? I'm not joking, is this the same person who made the earlier posts in this thread on this account? You have said OVER AND OVER again that not all get an equal chance to enter heaven and now you come back saying that they do all get an equal chance to enter heaven!!!!!!!!???!!!????!! Make your mind up so that we can further the discussion, pick one...
A) Everyone gets an equal chance, in this life, to become Christian.
B) Not everyone gets an equal chance in this life to become Christian.
If you pick A, then you will have to explain why there is not the same percentage of Christians in every single country on the planet. If you pick B, then you are admitting that your God is unjust, unless they get another chance after they die or unless non-Christians can enter heaven, simple as that.
You cannot believe that God is fair BUT AT THE SAME TIME say that he does not give everyone a fair chance.
Just_me_Mike
Well-Known Member
listen I won't for second begin to judge you, meaing I don't know how much or little you have studied the bible, so please understand that is how I feel.
However, the fact remains the bible is full of information that if read at face value and not compared with the rest of what the bible says we can get confused. In fact this is the very reason for all the denominations. As I am sure you are aware of. As to the bible referencing narrow is the way, and that some will find it. That can't just be concluded that it means we find it on our own. In romans 3 we read that no one will seek after God, and that we are all unrighteous. So then, with this kind of language we can see everyone is worthy of death. However it will be very few whom God chooses or better said chose from before the world began that make it through the narrow pass. You see we will only find that path if God first chooses us. And by that order God gets all the glory for the salvation, as it should according to the bible.
However, the fact remains the bible is full of information that if read at face value and not compared with the rest of what the bible says we can get confused. In fact this is the very reason for all the denominations. As I am sure you are aware of. As to the bible referencing narrow is the way, and that some will find it. That can't just be concluded that it means we find it on our own. In romans 3 we read that no one will seek after God, and that we are all unrighteous. So then, with this kind of language we can see everyone is worthy of death. However it will be very few whom God chooses or better said chose from before the world began that make it through the narrow pass. You see we will only find that path if God first chooses us. And by that order God gets all the glory for the salvation, as it should according to the bible.
HoldemDB9
Active Member
itwillend you obviously have a disagreement with all of the Christians in this thread about what the Bible is really saying. This has absolutely nothing to do with me. All I know is that this thread is not intended for someone who has your beleifs, it is intended for people like whitnessforhim, who does not believe what you believe.
logician
Well-Known Member
Of course people don't have an "equal" chance to become a Christian, by definition, anyone born before the supposed Jesus could not have been a Christian.
For me, it makes no difference.
HoldemDB9
Active Member
From what I've seen most Christians have an answer for those who have never heard of Jesus, usually that they will get a chance to believe after they die.
But if they get a chance in this life, even a small one, then they are held accountable. For some reason most Christians seem to think that any chance is automatically an equal chance. So a child born in Saudi Arabia has the same chance at becoming Christian as a child born in the USA because "they both had a chance". Even one member here has said "everyone has a 50% chance of becoming a Christian, because they either will or they will not".
Just_me_Mike
Well-Known Member
Not very relevant to this topic, but needs to be addressed. all those before Jesus were saved the same way those after Jesus were saved. Jesus died before the world began. What he did at the cross was just to show what he had already done before the world began. This is talked about when the bible refers to the lamb slain before the world began.
You see in order for God to call him his son, Jesus would have had to already pay the penalty for sin. As we see in the NT he was called "son" before he was crusified. This could only be if he had already paid the price.
So all those in the old testament were savd by the same sacrifice.
He died before the world began? really? And to say he payed a penalty is at best dishonest.