Do any Christians disagree with this...

[Tristesse]

Has the world ended yet? There is still time. The reality is though there will be people that never had a chance to hear the words of the bible. am I going to be arrogant and stupid eough to tell anyone that God doesn't save them? That is not my business to worry about who is saved. So anyone claiming that an aborignal will never be saved is claiming to know who the elect are. I won't do that.

Believe me I know where you are coming from, and I am just trying to answer according to what the bible teaches.

I'm not talking about the end of the world, I'm talking about the billions who have died, and not even heard of the bible. And why does your god go around choosing a select few to be saved? Thats absurd, that implies the notion that he's not all loving, but he's the kind of god who plays favorites. And what's so special about belief? I'd be more concerned with actions made in your life. Belief would be very low on my list of concerns.

 

[Watchmen]

Not everyone, in this life, gets an equal chance to become Christian?

I brought this up quite a lot recently and its ended with Christians either agreeing that their God is unfair, or they disagree with the above statement. Even saying things so insanely dumb such as "everyone will either become Christian or not become Christian in their life, therefore everyone has a 50% chance of becoming Christian". YES, someone has actually said this, scary.

Now of course, they don't stay around and explain how they disagree, because they don't want to look stupid. For some reason many Christians seem to think that any chance is an equal chance, I have no idea why they think this. Listen carefully:

I am not saying that a child born in India has no chance at becoming Christian, I am saying that this child has a SMALLER chance than a child born in the USA.

So are there any Christians here who believe that a child born in Saudi Arabia has the same chance at becoming Christian as a child born in the USA?

I'm not going to review 9 pages of posts, so I'll just ask whether you are aware of the LDS teaching regarding your question? If so, then there's no need for me to say more. If not, I'll share.

Cheers.

 

[HoldemDB9]

Now the stastitics you refer too for Asia and India, have you ever bee there? so called chritianity is alive and well.

There are around 1 billion people in India, that's almost 1/7th of the planet and 2.3% of them are Christian.

I know Christians are not the most logical people, but I'm really sick of this whole "ignore the percentages, stats, facts, etc" thing. Your "Have you ever been there" is no argument compared to the FACT that only 2.3% of Indians are Christians. << That is a FACT!

It scares me to think how far people will go to protect their flawed beliefs. I show you the stats and the FACTS and I get comments like "Have you ever been there?" or (from another Christian poster) "you only see the world in your little percentages". Honestly, if I EVER get so ridiculously ignorant, that I completely ignore undeniable facts, PLEASE someone just shoot me dead. Honestly, do you people have no respect for yourselves? Do you realize how pathetic you look?

 

[HoldemDB9]

I'm not going to review 9 pages of posts, so I'll just ask whether you are aware of the LDS teaching regarding your question? If so, then there's no need for me to say more. If not, I'll share.

Cheers.

I'm not completely sure, but don't LDS believe something along the lines of "you get the chance to accept Jesus after you die"?

Or that non-Christians can go to heaven?

 

[Watchmen]

I'm not completely sure, but don't LDS believe something along the lines of "you get the chance to accept Jesus after you die"?

Or that non-Christians can go to heaven?

Basically. In simple terms, we believe everyone will have an equal chance to accept or reject Christ. As you said, this chance may occur after one dies. So, the child in India that you mentioned in the OP will have this chance. Once judgement comes, we believe the vast majority of mankind will receive some portion of God's glory. This is Heaven. Hell is reserved only for the very few who had a full and perfect knowledge of God then rejected him. This is a extremely rare.

Bottom-line: Per LDS beliefs, (1) everyone will have an equal opportunity to accept jesus; and (2) everyone will receive some portion of God's glory (Heaven).

 

[Katzpur]

There are around 1 billion people in India, that's almost 1/7th of the planet and 2.3% of them are Christian.

I know Christians are not the most logical people, but I'm really sick of this whole "ignore the percentages, stats, facts, etc" thing. Your "Have you ever been there" is no argument compared to the FACT that only 2.3% of Indians are Christians. << That is a FACT!

It scares me to think how far people will go to protect their flawed beliefs. I show you the stats and the FACTS and I get comments like "Have you ever been there?" or (from another Christian poster) "you only see the world in your little percentages". Honestly, if I EVER get so ridiculously ignorant, that I completely ignore undeniable facts, PLEASE someone just shoot me dead. Honestly, do you people have no respect for yourselves? Do you realize how pathetic you look?

Holdem, the problem here is that few people who believe in God are comfortable with the idea that He would be so cruel as to condemn billions of innocent people to an eternity in Hell. On the other hand, they have to go along with what their holy scriptures say, and that is that a belief in Jesus Christ is required for salvation. That's a real Catch-22. It's a dilemma that really puts people in an awkward position. Since the Bible does no more than give us a few vague clues as to what happens to the billions who lived and died with no knowledge of Christ, it's easier for most people to simply ignore the facts as you have presented them than to consider the possibility that perhaps the Bible doesn't address the issue as completely as it might. Of course the mere suggestion that the Bible does not tell us absolutely everything God wants us to know is beyond comprehension to them.

I have heard so many Christians say something to the effect that everybody who has ever lived has an innate realization that there is a God and that consequently "no one is without excuse." When I point out to them that a little kid born in a brothel in Calcutta who spends pretty much every waking moment simply trying to stay alive doesn't have the same advantage some kid in middle-class America has, the best they can do is take a deep breath and stick their heads back into the sand. You are fighting a losing battle. Reality is a non-issue to some people.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

There are around 1 billion people in India, that's almost 1/7th of the planet and 2.3% of them are Christian.

I know Christians are not the most logical people, but I'm really sick of this whole "ignore the percentages, stats, facts, etc" thing. Your "Have you ever been there" is no argument compared to the FACT that only 2.3% of Indians are Christians. << That is a FACT!

It scares me to think how far people will go to protect their flawed beliefs. I show you the stats and the FACTS and I get comments like "Have you ever been there?" or (from another Christian poster) "you only see the world in your little percentages". Honestly, if I EVER get so ridiculously ignorant, that I completely ignore undeniable facts, PLEASE someone just shoot me dead. Honestly, do you people have no respect for yourselves? Do you realize how pathetic you look?

I understand your frustration. It is a 2 part frustration. 1 you feel eithr christians don't get what you are saying or are to stupid to see your reasoning. I respct that, because for the most part you are correct. 2 you feel sickened by the fact someone would believe in a God that would not give evryone an equal chance to get in heaven. Now please tell me I understand where you are coming from, because I really think I do.

Now 2.3% of 1 billion is of course 23 million. That is a lot of people. In fact it is plenty for the rest of the population to have accesst o the bible.
Now my point, please understand. statistically it seems more Americans have a chance at heaven. However if what americans are learning and worshipping is incorrect, what does it really matter when it comes to statistics? In actuality the statistics favor the people in india because the majority of americans follow a false christianity as eveidence of so many denominations. Where as in india the small number of christians may be studying a correct teaching, (I don't know that, but just for discussion sake). This could actually give those in india with a higher number of people going to heaven, than in america.

Holdem, since our first debates, I have really tried to change if need be and not be hostile, be willing to listen and learn and reply. Please consider my point, and I will continue to consider yours.

 

[HoldemDB9]

I understand your frustration. It is a 2 part frustration. 1 you feel eithr christians don't get what you are saying or are to stupid to see your reasoning. I respct that, because for the most part you are correct. 2 you feel sickened by the fact someone would believe in a God that would not give evryone an equal chance to get in heaven. Now please tell me I understand where you are coming from, because I really think I do.

I do not believe that Christians are too stupid to see my reasoning or that they do not get what I am saying. I think my reasoning is so easy to understand on this topic that anyone who is able to go onto the internet and sign up to a forum, can understand. The only thing I can think of is that every person who disagrees, is being dishonest. I am not "sickened" by anyone's beleifs. Its when beleifs are contradicting and logically flawed that I have a problem. If you believe that God does not give all an equal chance at heaven then that is fine, it does not sicken me, at least it makes sense. But if you believe that God does not give everyone an equal chance at heaven AND that God is being fair by doing this (like many Christians believe), then I have a problem, because that belief in flawed.

Now 2.3% of 1 billion is of course 23 million. That is a lot of people. In fact it is plenty for the rest of the population to have accesst o the bible.
Now my point, please understand. statistically it seems more Americans have a chance at heaven. However if what americans are learning and worshipping is incorrect, what does it really matter when it comes to statistics? In actuality the statistics favor the people in india because the majority of americans follow a false christianity as eveidence of so many denominations. Where as in india the small number of christians may be studying a correct teaching, (I don't know that, but just for discussion sake). This could actually give those in india with a higher number of people going to heaven, than in america.

Holdem, since our first debates, I have really tried to change if need be and not be hostile, be willing to listen and learn and reply. Please consider my point, and I will continue to consider yours.

Yes I have considered your point, and it does make sense. What you are saying is that we don't know that there is a higher percentage of Christians in America than in India, since we do not know who is a true Christian. Yes, this does make sense. But there are plenty of Christians who believe that there is a higher percentage of Christians in America, than there is in India. These are the Christians who's belief I have a problem with, not yours.

 

[roli]

Not everyone, in this life, gets an equal chance to become Christian?

I brought this up quite a lot recently and its ended with Christians either agreeing that their God is unfair, or they disagree with the above statement. Even saying things so insanely dumb such as "everyone will either become Christian or not become Christian in their life, therefore everyone has a 50% chance of becoming Christian". YES, someone has actually said this, scary.

Now of course, they don't stay around and explain how they disagree, because they don't want to look stupid. For some reason many Christians seem to think that any chance is an equal chance, I have no idea why they think this. Listen carefully:

I am not saying that a child born in India has no chance at becoming Christian, I am saying that this child has a SMALLER chance than a child born in the USA.

So are there any Christians here who believe that a child born in Saudi Arabia has the same chance at becoming Christian as a child born in the USA?

You somehow think that we from the west have a better chance then other s around the world.
Secualrization, evolution,atheisim,materialism, humanism,agnostism,religion, greed wealth, knowledge, and the like, have made it virtually impossible for people in this society to come to Christ, regardless of the over abundance of preaching, books,TV etc.

So in short, this culture has made no lasting or notable effect in the evangelisation of our nation,as a matter of fact there are more Christian conversions around the world in less wealthy nations then here in North America.

We have as many if not more barriers in front of us then those in other parts of the world

 

[Draka]

You somehow think that we from the west have a better chance then other s around the world.
Secualrization, evolution,atheisim,materialism, humanism,agnostism,religion, greed wealth, knowledge, and the like, have made it virtually impossible for people in this society to come to Christ, regardless of the over abundance of preaching, books,TV etc.

So in short, this culture has made no lasting or notable effect in the evangelisation of our nation,as a matter of fact there are more Christian conversions around the world in less wealthy nations then here in North America.

We have as many if not more barriers in front of us then those in other parts of the world

This obviously comes from somebody who likes to use the words "real Christians", as if Christians not exactly like them are just "fake" Christians.

 

[HoldemDB9]

You somehow think that we from the west have a better chance then other s around the world.
Secualrization, evolution,atheisim,materialism, humanism,agnostism,religion, greed wealth, knowledge, and the like, have made it virtually impossible for people in this society to come to Christ, regardless of the over abundance of preaching, books,TV etc.

So in short, this culture has made no lasting or notable effect in the evangelisation of our nation,as a matter of fact there are more Christian conversions around the world in less wealthy nations then here in North America.

We have as many if not more barriers in front of us then those in other parts of the world

I think I understand what you are saying roli. Are you saying that we don't know how many Christians there are in America, since we don't know who is a real Christian and who isn't?

Do you believe that there is the same percentage of Christians in every country on the planet? Please answer this, yes or no?

 

[Kathryn]

So are there any Christians here who believe that a child born in Saudi Arabia has the same chance at becoming Christian as a child born in the USA?

As a Christian, I believe this:

I believe that God is infinitely more wise than we can even comprehend. I believe He is also infinitely more holy and righteous than we can comprehend.

That being said, I trust the world and it's inhabitants more to God than I do to humans or our very limited and skewered understanding of God's infinite justice and mercy.

I believe that there will be a lot of surprises on Judgment Day, for both professing Christians and others.

So what's my application (because beliefs are nothing more than hot air if you don't apply them to real life, right?)?

My application is to try to live an example of Christianity that is a witness to my faith. I also share my faith with others, but I don't proselytize. I believe that I have to earn the right to witness - by showing respect for the other person and their beliefs first. After all, it is their walk through life that has shaped their beliefs - who am I to judge their soul?

 

[HoldemDB9]

As a Christian, I believe this:

I believe that God is infinitely more wise than we can even comprehend. I believe He is also infinitely more holy and righteous than we can comprehend.

That being said, I trust the world and it's inhabitants more to God than I do to humans or our very limited and skewered understanding of God's infinite justice and mercy.

I believe that there will be a lot of surprises on Judgment Day, for both professing Christians and others.

So what's my application (because beliefs are nothing more than hot air if you don't apply them to real life, right?)?

My application is to try to live an example of Christianity that is a witness to my faith. I also share my faith with others, but I don't proselytize. I believe that I have to earn the right to witness - by showing respect for the other person and their beliefs first. After all, it is their walk through life that has shaped their beliefs - who am I to judge their soul?

Thanks for the insight into your beleifs.

Now will you please answer my question: Do you believe that a child born in Saudi Arabia has the same chance at becoming Christian as a child born in the USA?

 

[Katzpur]

This obviously comes from somebody who likes to use the words "real Christians", as if Christians not exactly like them are just "fake" Christians.

And we all know that God hates fake Christians just about as much as He hates witches!

 

[Kathryn]

Thanks for the insight into your beleifs.

Now will you please answer my question: Do you believe that a child born in Saudi Arabia has the same chance at becoming Christian as a child born in the USA?

I believe the God is merciful and just and that He alone determines the eternal future of anyone, from a child in Saudi Arabia to a child in the United States of America. I believe that each child is made in God's image and of equal "value" (for lack of a better word).

Therefore your question, for me anyway, becomes moot. It's not the label we humans slap on people - it's each individual who stands before God - and the future of their eternal soul is strictly between those two entities.

I refuse to stand judge over anyone else's eternal destination.

 

[HoldemDB9]

I believe the God is merciful and just and that He alone determines the eternal future of anyone, from a child in Saudi Arabia to a child in the United States of America. I believe that each child is made in God's image and of equal "value" (for lack of a better word).

Therefore your question, for me anyway, becomes moot. It's not the label we humans slap on people - it's each individual who stands before God - and the future of their eternal soul is strictly between those two entities.

I refuse to stand judge over anyone else's eternal destination.

So you believe it is possible for a non-Christian to enter heaven, or for non-Christians to accept Jesus after they die?

 

[Kathryn]

So you believe it is possible for a non-Christian to enter heaven, or for non-Christians to accept Jesus after they die?

I believe it is possible for non Christians to enter heaven.

 

[Draka]

And we all know that God hates fake Christians just about as much as He hates witches!

Oh, those evil, satanic, vile witches! Of course god hates witches. They're evil spreading hate-mongerers and...oh...wait. Oops.

 

[Realist]

Not everyone, in this life, gets an equal chance to become Christian?

I am not saying that a child born in India has no chance at becoming Christian, I am saying that this child has a SMALLER chance than a child born in the USA.

So are there any Christians here who believe that a child born in Saudi Arabia has the same chance at becoming Christian as a child born in the USA?

I agree with you. I don't believe that a person has to come to Christianity surrounding good or easy circumstances, so I don't think that it has much to do with fairness on God's part. Just as long as it's still possible for the person to become a Christian.

 

[Beaudreaux]

As a Christian, I believe this:

I believe that God is infinitely more wise than we can even comprehend. I believe He is also infinitely more holy and righteous than we can comprehend.

That being said, I trust the world and it's inhabitants more to God than I do to humans or our very limited and skewered understanding of God's infinite justice and mercy.

I believe that there will be a lot of surprises on Judgment Day, for both professing Christians and others.

So what's my application (because beliefs are nothing more than hot air if you don't apply them to real life, right?)?

My application is to try to live an example of Christianity that is a witness to my faith. I also share my faith with others, but I don't proselytize. I believe that I have to earn the right to witness - by showing respect for the other person and their beliefs first. After all, it is their walk through life that has shaped their beliefs - who am I to judge their soul?

So.....you don't know?