Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Of COURSE I don't know who specifically will actually enter heaven - do you?
It's not my job or my inclination to judge the souls of other people.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Do any Christians disagree with this...
- Thread starter HoldemDB9
- Start date
Of COURSE I don't know who specifically will actually enter heaven - do you?
It's not my job or my inclination to judge the souls of other people.
uss_bigd
Well-Known Member
- 1 Corinthians 5:13
God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."
HoldemDB9
Active Member
No, just because it's possible, does not make everything all fine and fair. My point is not that it's impossible for some to become Christian, my point is that some have a smaller chance, which you agree with.
So now you agree that not all get an equal chance, do you believe that non-Christians can go to heaven or do you believe that non-Christians an get another chance to accept Jesus after they die?
So, do you believe that God will send some non-Christians to heaven?
HoldemDB9
Active Member
Well there you go, as long as you believe this then there is no contradiction.
Holdem if you are expecting a answer from me I gave it to you long ago. I still have you on ignore because you are too stubborn to accept that God is fair. If you keep this up you are violating the harassment policy listed by these forums rules and I will have a moderator investigate your actions.
HoldemDB9
Active Member
You gave me your "answer" and when I shown you that is was logically flawed and made no sense at all, you put me on your "ignore list". Pretty pathetic and sad really. For anyone who wants to see, here is the thread...
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/79106-understanding-hell.html
And its not as if its that hard, to see how your argument is flawed all you need is to be able to understand 5th grade math, which you don't. You say that all get an equal chance in this life to become Christian. If this was the case then there would be the same percentage of Christians in every country on the planet. But there is not the same percentage of Christians in every country on the planet, therefore not all get an equal chance to become Christian. Pretty simple really, Id bet that the vast majority of 10 year olds could understand.
I think I should take the advice in your sig and not argue with "stupid" people. I'm sorry, I hate talking to people in this manner but you are so stupid it scares me. I just cannot get this out of my head, I just cannot believe that you said this: "Everyone will either become Christian or not become Christian, therefore everyone has a 50% chance of becoming Christian" - Enoch07. I would laugh so hard at this comment if it did not come from an apparent, serious adult.
No body can ever, ever debate with you Enoch07 because when presented with undeniable facts, you will ignore them and say "you're just choosing to see them as facts", and then you will most probably add the person who proved you wrong to your ignore list, so that you don't have to look stupid anymore.
HoldemDB9
Active Member
And Enoch07 your going to have a moderator investigate my actions if I what? Continue to make threads? Because that's all I have done here.
And fyi, I am not too stubborn to accept that God is fair. I believe that if God exists he will be fair. You are the one who does not believe that God is fair, not me.
And fyi, I am not too stubborn to accept that God is fair. I believe that if God exists he will be fair. You are the one who does not believe that God is fair, not me.
Zhakir
Peace&Tolerance
Though you aren't really sure God exisits you come to understand one the most important acts of God justice..congratulations!I don't believe this present book named bible is the injeel god sent to jesus(pbuh),
no wonder you have never found an answer.
*The name "Just" is one of God's 99 names given in quran
**about your question
1/If any one doesn't hear about Allah's word till death, then he is not a message rejecter he will never go to hell.
All verses of the Quran say kafirs (=message rejecters)will go to hell.
This is the answer,Allah will judge only who heard about the message.not who didn't. He is fair.
***But there's onther thing you may have forgotten, but not the Just,as an example for that:We can say all people in a country like USA Know about the religion of islam.
and say all most people in india do, but many indians can't read or write or learn about islam,this is not the case in USA,so an american kafir isn't really like an indian kafir they both go to hell ...Exept in cases the holy book shows
Quran 4:97-98
When angels take the souls of those who die in sin against their souls, they say: "In what (plight) Were ye?" They reply: "Weak and oppressed Were we in the earth." They say: "Was not the earth of Allah spacious enough for you to move yourselves away (From evil)?" Such men willfind their abode in Hell,- What an evil refuge! -
Except those who are (really) weak and oppressed - men, women, and children - who have no means in their power, nor (a guide-post) to their way.
The all Just has said the truth.
Quran 17:81
And say: "Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish."
Thank you all mighty Allah.
Last edited:
HoldemDB9
Active Member
I don't believe this present book named bible is the injeel god sent to jesus(pbuh),
no wonder you have never found an answer.
*The name "Just" is one of God's 99 names given in quran
**about your question
1/If any one doesn't hear about Allah's word till death, then he is not a message rejecter he will never go to hell.
All verses of the Quran say kafirs (=message rejecters)will go to hell.
This is the answer,Allah will judge only who heard about the message.not who didn't. He is fair.
***But there's onther thing you may have forgotten, but not the Just,as an example for that:We can say all people in a country like USA Know about the religion of islam.
and say all most people in india do, but many indians can't read or write or learn about islam,this is not the case in USA,so an american kafir isn't really like an indian kafir they both go to hell ...Exept in cases the holy book shows
Quran 4:97-98
When angels take the souls of those who die in sin against their souls, they say: "In what (plight) Were ye?" They reply: "Weak and oppressed Were we in the earth." They say: "Was not the earth of Allah spacious enough for you to move yourselves away (From evil)?" Such men willfind their abode in Hell,- What an evil refuge! -
Except those who are (really) weak and oppressed - men, women, and children - who have no means in their power, nor (a guide-post) to their way.
The all Just has said the truth.
Quran 17:81
And say: "Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish."
Thank you all mighty Allah.
Why do you seem to think that ANY chance of becoming a Muslim is an equal chance? You sound just like all of the Christians, here you are admitting that your God is unfair.
You said that everyone in America had heard of Islam, therefore if they reject it they go to hell. Well this is not fair. It is not fair because people born in America do NOT have the same chance at becoming Christian as a child born in Saudi Arabia. You cant just say "God only judges those who have had a chance to follow Islam, therefore he is fair", because not all who had a chance to follow Islam had an EQUAL chance.
So you've just admitted that your God is unfair.
Zhakir
Peace&Tolerance
But yes they have the same chance,this is the quran and the bible and vedas and the the choice of disbelieving in God in front of any body in USA and in saudi arabia.
Quran 18:29
Say, "The truth is from your Lord": Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong-doers We have prepared aFire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on!
I refuse to be called "like christian"(no offence) but for the bible is different fron the quran
maybe you said that because you think being born to this religion family means every thing you need more informations about quran
Miracles of the Qur'an - Modern Science Reveals New Miracles of the Qur'an
Iwish you a good luck
I really appreciate you thread trying do find the truth of Allah's justice.
Quran 18:29
Say, "The truth is from your Lord": Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong-doers We have prepared aFire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on!
I refuse to be called "like christian"(no offence) but for the bible is different fron the quran
maybe you said that because you think being born to this religion family means every thing you need more informations about quran
Miracles of the Qur'an - Modern Science Reveals New Miracles of the Qur'an
Iwish you a good luck
I really appreciate you thread trying do find the truth of Allah's justice.
HoldemDB9
Active Member
Wrong, they do not all have the "same chance". And I said you were like a Christian because you are, you're denying the fact that not all get an equal chance to follow your religion.
It pretty simple really...
If everyone on the planet had an equal chance to become Muslim, then there would be the same percentage of Muslims in EVERY country on the planet.
There is NOT the same percentage of Christians in every country on the planet.
Therefore, unless these numbers are just a billion zillion million to 1 coincidence, not everyone gets an equal chance to become Muslim.
Therefore your God is unfair.
So do you believe that the fact that not many Americans are Muslim, is just a coincidence? Answer with "no", and your God is unjust.
The gospels and most of the writers speak of false conversions, including Jesus, could it possibly be that there are those who will call themselves Christian but will be tossed out or rejected from the the Kingdom.
..perhaps you should reread the scriptures, Jesus himself said ..Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Let me ask you ,do you read over these scriptures,read them out of context or do you just simply reject them all together and make them to fit your own interpretation.
Zhakir
Peace&Tolerance
No not a must, the education and the media is not the same. read the verses of chapter 4 of the quran again ,but don't you know that islam is the fastest growing religion in the world,give it some time and it will be the largest as said in Quran
But you call it "coincidence" though you didn't really meet all theses people,Allah tested every human being,and gave them same chances, sure now it's your turn , many accepted it many did not i reat it's the fastes growing religion.
Quran 6:125
Those whom Allah (in His plan) willeth to guide,- He openeth their breast to Islam; those whom He willeth to leave straying,- He make their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies: thus doth Allah (heap) the penalty on those who refuse to believe.
Can't you think of the real reason why many become muslims?
Quran Miracles - Miracles of the Qur'an
Last edited:
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
You know what really bugs me about this attitude, roli? To me, the God you're describing is one who really doesn't like us very much at all. Plus, it feels like you really like the idea of being one of just a handful (relatively speaking) that God ultimately accepts. Why would you think God would create so many millions of people, ask His Son to suffer unbearable anguish so that they might be forgiven of their sins, and then just "toss out" the majority of them? Doesn't it bother you even a little bit to think of Him as caring so little about so many of His children? To me, the idea that He would allow His Son to go through what He did to save the souls of so few makes Him seem not at all loving, and I believe He is loving beyond our ability to comprehend. I believe He will do every conceivable thing short of force to get us all back.
Maybe you should let God reveal himself to mankind as he see's fit and how he does this is his business, not for you to base a theology and ongoiong arguement over.
It appears you have some issue with this as if it's a personal matter
You have been repeating this thread and the question for months and every answer is never enough, you respond with asking the same question..over and over
Regardless of the chance that we all will have to be reconciled to God ,it will be given and it will be either rejected or accepted based on how God chooses to reveal himself.
Romans 1 says .."For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Last edited:
Do you honestly believe that everyone is going to heaven despite there unrepented state and rebellious unmbridled passions of lust, indulgence, disobedience.
Do you not believe there will be a judgement ?
If everyone is saved, why would there be need for judgement ?
What about all the conditions Jesus places on his promises.
"If any ,whosoever, for as many"
John 3:18 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
I never said he does'nt care ,I said he says that not everyone who calls me Lord will enter heaven".
Why is it that you take issue with me when it's he that talks about the "Mysteries of the kingdom", and some knowing it and some not .
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
You absolutely right in saying that He cares 2Pe 3:9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Jesus does not toss anyone away... they reject his grace and gift of eternal life and that he is the way to the father.
What does John mean in Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire
So Jesus won't separate the sheep from the goats,Mat 25:33
Will he cast out some.....Jhn 6:37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Mat 13:41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
I don't know what gospel or doctrine you actually believe, but it seems apparent a study of Holy scripture might do you some good,without your own religious books.
Although one of the most important verses in scripture, you comment on teh graphics.
It's the words I was hoping you'd respond to, not the colours and fonts, but I'm glad your fascinated by them while avoiding the essence of the verse.
An emphasis is still never enough ...!!!!!
.but here it is again ,"men will be without excuse "
Rom 3 goes on to say that those that under the law, every mouth will be stopped and all the world become guilty.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
No. Do you honestly believe I said they were? I said most are, and I further clarified what I meant by that.
Of course I believe there will be a judgment.
There wouldn't be, but that's not what I said at all.
Scripture is where I get my beliefs, Roli. Well, scripture and the brain God gave me.
Last edited:
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Your emphasis was distracting. The words don't need pretty colors and big fonts to make them important. Apparently you think that they need to be bigger and brighter in order for us to notice them.
Every person will ultimately be without excuse, but if everyone were to be judged on the basis of what they knew when they died and condemned for not accepting something they had never heard taught, they would be very much without excuse.