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Do atheists believe in magnetism?

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
1. Your definition of reality pretty much just destroyed the entire realm of culture and social science.
I don't think so. I think it clearly distinguishes the world external to the self, which is the same thing as objective reality (which I'd say was the most usual meaning of 'reality'), from the personal life of the mind, which can have as many subjective 'realities' as it cares to imagine.

Without such a distinction, there's no objective definition of truth, for example. I use what's called the "correspondence" definition of truth ─ that truth is a quality of statements, and that a statement is true to the extent that it corresponds with / accurately reflects objective reality. Nor is there a satisfactory definition of "fact" ─ in my view a fact is an accurate statement about some or other state of affairs or relationship in objective reality.
2. Actually there are some pretty interesting events that support the conclusion that there is a God that go well beyond a persons brain. I cite the Cokevillie events as one such example.
Refreshing my memory about Cokeville, I've just reread the >Wikipedia page<, and neither in memory nor from the Wikipedia page do I find anything that goes beyond lucky to miraculous. What did you have in mind?
I don't have a testable way to poke and proud the almighty. I will however submit a great many millions of lives were people testify that they know.
How then do you address the point that the only way God is known to exist is as an idea?
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
Not sure who you hang out with, but lottery winner are a few dozen a year give or take? I've personally listened to hundreds of people who heard, felt thought etc. very out of the normal that was helpful to them. And that's just in the last few years.
If God is omnipresent and omni-whatever direct communication would be available to all.
 
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Balthazzar

N. Germanic Descent
We have evidence of diseases and we have evidence of cures. When are you going to supply any comparable evidence of your god?

Evieence for my God? I'm a Panentheist. The evidence for my God is everywhere. The only validating scripture that comes to mind at the moment, is: "In God we live, move, and have our being " - Acts
Panentheism - Wikipedia
 

Balthazzar

N. Germanic Descent
Great, when theistic faith finds the evidence for any deity, then you be sure to post it here and let me know. In the mean time I must remain dubious. Faith someone will one day cure a disease isn't evidence they can cure it, and we know for an objective fact that medical science can cure diseases, we have no objective evidence any deity is even possible.

Dubiously spoken I presume. In another thread, I suggested to look around. The evidence - evident. I likewise suggested that would never suffice - at least for those as contrary to the concept, or in this case "term" as some are. - God - I will presume my use of the term "God" has me stereo typed by you into a category I do not belong in.

Honestly, I'm not much different than you. God is a term I use to define all that ever was, all that is, and all that will ever be. You fight against term usage, appropriately applied as defined in even dictionaries, encyclopedias, and one adopted by even some atheists - which would be a fail safe position if not for the majority of our world being theists. A theist - hey, there's a term twist for ya. I'm a theist. Go figure

By the way - You asked for scripture to show evidence for God.

Ephesians 4:6

1 Corinthians 15:28

Acts 17:28

28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.


There's a couple that identify God as All things
 
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Balthazzar

N. Germanic Descent
@Sheldon To keep in line with the theme of the thread - I'll utilize the use of electrons, protons, and neutrons as a way to illustrate the concept of God - a nucleus. One Nucleus existing within even larger bodies of, encapsulating the entirety of everything - its as if we are similar, if not the same as. The atomic structure of a quartz crystal may differ from the atomic structure of other carbon based things like diamonds and people, but the basics remain the same - protons, neutrons, and electrons forming cells (a nucleus) then interacting with other cells. That's life and it's God and it's us and everything else too. Beyond these, I couldn't comment as I know of nothing else.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
I suggested to look around. The evidence - evident.

Self evidently it's not, else I wouldn't be an atheist, you mean you are claiming it is evident to you. This is as I explained just a sweeping meaningless subjective claim. You'd have to explain in detail what about "everything" you think evidences a deity, and how, not just assert it, repeatedly.


Honestly, I'm not much different than you. God is a term I use to define all that ever was, all that is, and all that will ever be.

Yes I see that you believe this, as do some others, but what does that even mean? You are simply using an arbitrary definition of a deity that has no meaning I can discern, it is of course a subjective claim, and not remotely objective evidence. If I say unicorns are everything just look around, is this sufficient for you believe unirons are real? Hell it wouldn't even be clear I was talking about unicorns in any sense anyone understands the term?

You fight against term usage, appropriately applied as defined in even dictionaries, encyclopedias, and one adopted by even some atheists - which would be a fail safe position if not for the majority of our world being theists.

Sorry but that's almost cryptic gibberish, what term am I fighting against, and how, please quote my posts for clarity, and explain why you (presumably) think they are wrong.

A theist - hey, there's a term twist for ya. I'm a theist. Go figure By the way - You asked for scripture to show evidence for God.

Ephesians 4:6

1 Corinthians 15:28

Acts 17:28
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
There's a couple that identify God as All things

Why do you think these evidence any deity? The one you quoted contains subjective claims, not objective evidence. So in the Harry Potter novels are claims about magic, you don't (I presume) believe these represent evidence for magic?
 
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ppp

Well-Known Member
Evieence for my God? I'm a Panentheist. The evidence for my God is everywhere. The only validating scripture that comes to mind at the moment, is: "In God we live, move, and have our being " - Acts
Panentheism - Wikipedia
Oh boy. A bald assertion and a quote of some guy making a bald assertion. Thanks for the infomercial.

When I asked you, "When are you going to supply any comparable evidence of your god?" Your response should have been, Not today.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Oh boy. A bald assertion and a quote of some guy making a bald assertion. Thanks for the infomercial.

When I asked you, "When are you going to supply any comparable evidence of your god?" Your response should have been, Not today.

I think even that assessment is hugely optimistic. His posts suggest he either doesn't know or doesn't care that there is a difference between subjective claims, and objective evidence. It's a common tactic many people use, in order to preserve an unevidenced subjective believe they are emotionally invested in.
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Why is a given persons or millions witness of what they have seen and heard invalided if you don't like it?

As I explained, first, I don't believe that such people have the ability to detect a deity undetectable to those who become atheists.

Secondly, the claim is extraordinary, a one-off. To be believed, the empiricist needs evidence that points to a conscious, volitional agent that created the universe. Others don't. Their opinions about reality won't be the same as mine. They will admit any number of beliefs into their worldview that the empiricist would reject.

Third, I have the same experience that they are having, which I too once interpreted as a deity. I think I explained here the evidence that convinced me that I had been mistaken. I still get that feeling at times, but I understand it differently. It's a mental state characterized by a sense of awe and mystery, connection, and gratitude, and correlated with the release of oxytocin in the brain: Effects of oxytocin administration on spirituality and emotional responses to meditation

Fourth, there's the fact that the reports of a deity don't resemble one another. There's a test to determine if others are seeing things invisible to you or either lying or mistaken - consensus or lack thereof. Maybe you're red-green colorblind, and one day it occurs to you that maybe you're being pranked. So, you prepare a collection of what you are told are red and green socks which are numbered so that you can tell which are allegedly green and which are red. Then you separate people and have them name the colors they see. You'll discover very quickly what is the case regarding these colors. Theists don't pass the sock test.

As you can see, I am trying to understand the reports of others in terms of what I know about reality including what I know about people, and to translate their words to mean something that conforms to that understanding. Another poster, a zealous Christian, and I were recently discussing what born again means when we discussing his and my definitions of Christian. He said that he defines Christian in terms of being born again, meaning a believer who is filled with the Spirit and is saved. I told him that for me, a Christian was anybody that believed the core doctrine of Christianity like he does, and that when someone say that they are born again, it doesn't mean to me what it does to him. I translate his words according to my worldview, in which claiming to be born again means having accepted the core doctrine of Christianity, but none of the rest, and that we essentially used the same definition once I removed the supernatural aspects of his definition.

Don't we all do that? Aren't you doing that now - trying to understand my words through the lens of your worldview? Some believers, maybe you, would be trying to understand me in terms of Satan and rebellion, some as I don't pray properly, or any other conclusion that assumes that a god exists that I just haven't found.

accounts of small miracles from rapid healing, to being found when lost etc. are abundant. Sure there may be a few that are 100% frauds, but having listened to many people over many years I don't dismiss this long list of witnesses.

I don't think that most theists are frauds, just mistaken. As I said, I reject their conclusions because of the method they use to arrive at them. In my worldview, knowledge about reality comes from valid reasoning applied to the evidence of the senses to arrive at sound, demonstrably correct conclusions. Nothing else should be called knowledge, truth, or correct, including religious beliefs, which are believed by faith, not evidence. The believer will often point to the world or a holy book and say that that is his evidence for God, but it is not that when scrutinized critically.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I was simply showing how, with an illustration, the Bible defines "faith".

Thank you. I assumed that that was your definition as well and not just the Bible's. It doesn't really matter. The definition is incorrect to me whether or not it is yours.

I likewise had suggested, some have mis-applied the term and it would seem the misapplied use has been used to stereotype those who use it correctly, as defined in the Bible, per the illustration utilized by me. It makes more sense in that application - no matter what we place our faith in.

I'm not sure what you're telling me here. I thought that I was the one discussing how the term is misapplied when I discussed equivocation, or using two words with the same spelling and pronunciation but different definitions as equivalent and interchangeable. Faith in gods is not the same as faith that something that has performed as expected in the past will continue to do so, like a car starting. If we call both of those faith, it will be as ambiguous as having two daughters and naming them both Faith. Who made the dinner tonight? Faith did, all by herself. Her sister was out with friends. If such a family were a blended family, and the two Faiths were step-sisters, you can bet that one would be called something else. I do that with words as well. I just don't call the latter meaning faith any more even though that's a common usage.

In any event, for reasons given, for me, neither substance nor evidence pertain to faith in the sense of unjustified belief. My definition of faith is simple and easy to apply. Do you believe it because evidence supports the belief or do you believe it with less? If the latter, it's faith, or unjustified belief. If the former, it's not faith. The belief is justified by the rules for interpreting evidence. I assume that you disagree, but maybe not. If you find that definition faulty, perhaps you can explain why.

I'm not much different than you. God is a term I use to define all that ever was, all that is, and all that will ever be. You fight against term usage

I wouldn't use the word God to describe reality, since it carries so much baggage, and I suspect that you mean more than what you wrote when you say God. But, if that's all you mean by God, then you can be certain you will be misunderstood when you use the word. People imagine a sentient entity that needs or deserves our attention. If you like to anthropomorphize reality - "all that ever was, all that is, and all that will ever be" - you can call it Mother Nature without anybody thinking you mean it is a conscious agent.

We've got another active poster here who calls himself a theist, who uses the word God, and is frustrated by atheists and atheism, but after over a year, he described what he meant in words similar to yours. What's he been arguing about all this time if his worldview is essentially atheistic but with the word God thrown in? I don't actually believe him. He is likely a theist of some sort and believes that reality is awake in some sense, but is reluctant to articulate his beliefs or isn't clear on them himself. I suspect that he has a vague intuition that he calls God, and I suspect it's the same one I described above to Truth in love, the spiritual state.

You said that you are not much different from Sheldon, and that may be correct if your definition of God is complete as written. Likewise with this poster I just described. If I take his words at face value, we have more or less the same experience of reality as being greater than the sum of its parts, of being mysterious - why is it there and what aren't we seeing? - of being awesome in its dimensions, composition, and behaviors, and being something special, what the religious call sacred. It's just that he wants to call that God, and I don't simply to avoid being misunderstood. But as I indicated, I believe he views reality as a person of some sort, whereas I don't have any reason to believe that even if there is some merit to the idea, so I remain agnostic about personal gods and avoid using language guaranteed to give people a false impression of what I do believe.
 
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SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
That, and more, was all a part of my Christian homeschooling, that sort of thing that people think makes people really smart and excel academically (It doesn't; you'll have stellar rote memory ability and nothing more).
Good grief, so it's even worse that I'd imagined. :eek:

Rote memory has got to be good for something though, right?
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Theories in process of becoming. or efforts to find cures to diseases, etc. People have hope for these, the evidence is in the finding of. They've not been evidenced, the efforts being made are hopeful, there's substance in the hopes. The efforts to cure the diseases are showing progress, then one day - a cure is found. The efforts were not in vain, nor their hopes. Thier faith evidenced in the realization and satisfaction of their hope to hind a cure - That's faith and faith is strengthened through the substance of progress.
What you're talking about here are hope and perseverance.
 

Balthazzar

N. Germanic Descent
Self evidently it's not, else I wouldn't be an atheist, you mean you are claiming it is evident to you. This is as I explained just a sweeping meaningless subjective claim. You'd have to explain in detail what about "everything" you think evidences a deity, and how, not just assert it, repeatedly.




Yes I see that you believe this, as do some others, but what does that even mean? You are simply using an arbitrary definition of a deity that has no meaning I can discern, it is of course a subjective claim, and not remotely objective evidence. If I say unicorns are everything just look around, is this sufficient for you believe unirons are real? Hell it wouldn't even be clear I was talking about unicorns in any sense anyone understands the term?



Sorry but that's almost cryptic gibberish, what term am I fighting against, and how, please quote my posts for clarity, and explain why you (presumably) think they are wrong.



Why do you think these evidence any deity? The one you quoted contains subjective claims, not objective evidence. So in the Harry Potter novels are claims about magic, you don't (I presume) believe these represent evidence for magic?

What is the universe and how is it defined? How do you think I view God? I gave the definition of panentheism, as defined and as I understand the universe. Are you attributing your own stereotype about how you think God should be or how you think God is viewed by others to my views? I told you how I view God as a panentheist I gave accepted definitions of panentheism. I presume you are familiar with the objective universe. I gave illustrations in scientific terms and I made no claim, aside from what's evident in life, as to any other aspect of how God "might" be.

Your comprehension level seems to be on par with a child diagnosed with adhd. An honest observation. Either that. or you're being contrary for sake of being contrary. Either way, you seem to be an adolescent unfamiliar with the subject you both disagree with and support, or just being a child stirring up trouble without thought to how old it makes you appear to me.

I could resort to elementary level terms if you like.
 

Balthazzar

N. Germanic Descent
Thank you. I assumed that that was your definition as well and not just the Bible's. It doesn't really matter. The definition is incorrect to me whether or not it is yours.



I'm not sure what you're telling me here. I thought that I was the one discussing how the term is misapplied when I discussed equivocation, or using two words with the same spelling and pronunciation but different definitions as equivalent and interchangeable. Faith in gods is not the same as faith that something that has performed as expected in the past will continue to do so, like a car starting. If we call both of those faith, it will be as ambiguous as having two daughters and naming them both Faith. Who made the dinner tonight? Faith did, all by herself. Her sister was out with friends. If such a family were a blended family, and the two Faiths were step-sisters, you can bet that one would be called something else. I do that with words as well. I just don't call the latter meaning faith any more even though that's a common usage.

In any event, for reasons given, for me, neither substance nor evidence pertain to faith in the sense of unjustified belief. My definition of faith is simple and easy to apply. Do you believe it because evidence supports the belief or do you believe it with less? If the latter, it's faith, or unjustified belief. If the former, it's not faith. The belief is justified by the rules for interpreting evidence. I assume that you disagree, but maybe not. If you find that definition faulty, perhaps you can explain why.



I wouldn't use the word God to describe reality, since it carries so much baggage, and I suspect that you mean more than that when you say God. But, if that's all you mean by God, then you can be certain you will be misunderstood when you use the word. People imagine a sentient entity that needs or deserves our attention. If you like to anthropomorphize reality - "all that ever was, all that is, and all that will ever be" - you can call it Mother Nature without anybody thinking you mean it is a conscious agent.

We've got another active poster here who calls himself a theist, who uses the word God, and is frustrated by atheists and atheism, but after over a year, he described what he meant in words similar to yours. What's he been arguing about all this time if his worldview is essentially atheistic but with the word God thrown in? I don't actually believe him. He is likely a theist of some sort and believes that reality is awake in some sense, but is reluctant to articulate his beliefs or isn't clear on them himself. I suspect that he has a vague intuition that he calls God, and I suspect it's the same one I described above to Truth in love, the spiritual state.

You said that you are not much different from Sheldon, and that may be correct if your definition of God is complete as written. Likewise with this poster I just described. If I take his words at face value, we have more or less the same experience of reality as being greater than the sum of its parts, of being mysterious - why is it there and what aren't we seeing? - of being awesome in its dimensions, composition, and behaviors, and being something special, what the religious call sacred. It's just that he wants to call that God, and I don't simply to avoid being misunderstood. But as I indicated, I believe he views reality as a person of some sort, whereas I don't have any reason to believe that even if there is some merit to the idea, so I remain agnostic about personal gods and avoid using language guaranteed to give people a false impression of what I do believe.

You define faith differently than the bible- you define God differently than I do. The term God seems to offend you. The universe changes, we change, but the scriptures suggest that God does not change. I can only presume this is in relation to how God is defined in the scriptures as panentheism applies the use of the term.

God is all that was, all that is, and all that will ever be.

This use of the term solidifies the definition of, implying that the definition of God is unchanging. Even the Hebrew scriptures allude to this.

" I am that I am" .

You use the term universe

I use the term God, which is the term utilized long before the term "universe" became a term of replacement.
 

Balthazzar

N. Germanic Descent
Oh boy. A bald assertion and a quote of some guy making a bald assertion. Thanks for the infomercial.

When I asked you, "When are you going to supply any comparable evidence of your god?" Your response should have been, Not today.

A bald assertion -
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
A bald assertion -
Not at all. You produced a sentence that stated your position and a sentence quoting some guy that agreed with you. Nothing else. Your post and it's contents (and the lack of any support) are the evidence of my statement.

If you disagree then point to something additional from you post.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Yes - we call this faith
We call it hope and perseverance.



Definition of faith

1a: allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTYlost faith in the company's president
b(1): fidelity to one's promises
(2): sincerity of intentionsacted in good faith
2a(1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God
(2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion
b(1): firm belief in something for which there is no proof; clinging to the faith that her missing son would one day return
(2): complete trust
3: something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs
Definition of FAITH
 
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