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Do atheists believe in magnetism?

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Well, atheists believe in something. And sure enough, here they are on "Religious Forums," expounding their beliefs.


Why would you imagine someone who lacks belief in a deity, does not hold any beliefs about the real world they inhabit? A human being couldn't function without forming beliefs about the world they occupy.

So worry not, atheists already have beliefs, which means that if you're considering converting them, you're already half-way there.

You now that beliefs don't all have the same objective merit right? A belief is just an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof. It need not be without proof of course.

Atheism is simply the lack or absence of belief in any deity or deities, why anyone would imagine this means an atheist would hold no beliefs, or that this was even possible, is baffling?
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
It's undoubtedly turtles all the way down. Right @ChristineM ?

I know of only one... The Great A'Tuin. Please find attached the latest NASA image.

images (1).jpeg


Of course the image doesn't show what the Great A'Tuin is standing on, i believe it may very well be turtles all the way down
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
A common sentiment from atheists is that they won’t believe in things that can’t be shown.

We cannot see it, we can’t touch it. In the case of electromagnetic devices it is not always there. Yet one can observe its effects being inline with a given theory.

So is it believed in?
The only thing atheists don't believe in is/are god(s). They can and do believe in all kinds of other things.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
So now I need educating now... Thank you for your thoughtful input into my educational status. I guess people care in different ways, but sadly, they can't always express that care in a positive manner.

You want me to provide "falsifiable evidence?" Didn't you mean, 'un-falsifiable evidence?' I'll presume meant un-falsifiable evidence. That little 'un-' makes all the difference. There's oodles of falsifiable stuff around, not least from the scientific community - Missing Links everywhere, but oops, it was falsifiable. I'll stop there, since there's lists and lists of falsified stuff from the scientific community, so called. And yet, perhaps you're offering money for un-falsifiable evidence. I can guess the price of such evidence, and my guess is that it would be huge. But who'd pay? Would you? I doubt it. And, if I provided you with said evidence, would you believe your eyes, or your heart, or your mind - if you even knew the nature of your mind, or your heart and eyes. You do not know, and the sciences do not know, but currently it's all guesswork; jab it, poke it, cut it.
No, she meant "falsifiable." Unfalsifiable means it's not able to be falsified.

"Falsifiability is the capacity for some proposition, statement, theory or hypothesis to be proven wrong. That capacity is an essential component of the scientific method and hypothesis testing. In a scientific context, falsifiability is sometimes considered synonymous with testability."
What is falsifiability? - Definition from WhatIs.com

And where to start with evidence, when even basic ghosts, as yet, are considered magic woo, or similar. And why should I anyway? Besides possible cash, are you offering me a trophy? I mean, do you know that deeply religious people like myself have little or no interest in possessions, so unlike yourself, perhaps - tempting me with anything you have to offer is pointless, even if I have oodles of evidence. Evidence that you seem to crave, or not. But, maybe I have it all wrong and you did mean you want 'falsifiable evidence.'
Hey, it's not other peoples' fault that you can't justify your claims with evidence. We are on a debate forum, after all. That's what goes on here.
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
Like justice? Nah...I think you mean many atheists are materialists. Not the same thing.



Do you really think there are a whole swathe of atheists completely ignoring science and not believing in magnetism? Or is this just...well...I'm not sure really.

What is this?


Its a question about how people look at things.

Many people insist that they trust science, but not anything requiring any belief, yet much of science requires a level of trust, belief faith etc.
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
I doubt that. Many atheists believe in atoms.


Truth is believed in.

So how does one determine the truth of a given event. Joan of Ark Bowing to the king in the back of the room. Lucky guess? Divine guidance? Risked her life bowing to the only guy in that part of the room who bathed that week?
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
That's not something I can demonstrate to others though, especially not in the way you can place a sheet of paper over a magnet, dump iron filings on the paper, and the iron fillings will move to where the magnetic field pulls them.

Granted some things are easier to observe. I can't slap a super collider up in back yard, but does that make any discovery in Cern any less real?
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
Ah, like Saint Paul's false analogy to link the (real) wind with the (imaginary) 'things unseen' he was selling.

The thing about magnetism is that many of its effects can be demonstrated without instruments, its presence demonstrated by its interaction with instruments, and its consistent behavior in accordance with the theories of physics that deal with it.

You don't even need instruments to demonstrate the reality of the wind. If your having to pull your scarf over your face, or if your sheets billowing on the line (the modern dryer gets in the way of the story, but not the experiment) don't convince you, just get a source of smoke and watch it move in the air.

The 'things unseen' are not known to exist in any form other than as concepts / things imagined in individual brains.

The magnetism and the wind are examinable aspects of the world external to the self, thus have objective existence and can be perceived in very much the same way by any onlooker who has the right equipment.

I'm not sure that 'believe in' is the right phrase, but I assert the objective reality of the wind and of magnetism. Anyone doubting can be given a satisfactory demonstration of them.

No such thing is true of Paul's 'unseen things'.


Would you equate your not having seen magnetism work with there is no magnetism?

Would you be accurate in denying something exiests if you declined to test it out first?
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
Does it not have evidence?

We have evidence, yet a cynic could argue?
1. If it was real it would always work the same way (ignoring various conditions of operations)
2. That if you can't see it is not real (less common, but still done).
3. If it is not written up in a journal its not real
4. I won't put in any effort until I see results.
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
Err. Honestly, I have not heard an atheist say that. If you mean that atheists ask for empirical evidence, that is true but empiricism does not always mean what you can see with your eyes physically. If an effect of electromagnetic waves can be detected, that is empirical evidence.

Please clarify if you meant something else. I am interested in this topic.


It is a tad simple of an example.

People love evidence fair enough so do I. I often hear people dismissing the evidence of others. Denying that its worth the time to conduct the experiment. Prove it first mentality. But nothing works that way.

We did not prove the Higgs is a thing and then build CERN.

Belief precedes the action. Action leads to the situation where the evidence can be seen.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
We have evidence, yet a cynic could argue?
1. If it was real it would always work the same way (ignoring various conditions of operations)
2. That if you can't see it is not real (less common, but still done).
3. If it is not written up in a journal its not real
4. I won't put in any effort until I see results.
You have no way to demonstrate a distinction between the truth and falsity of your claim.
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
Well, atheists believe in something. And sure enough, here they are on "Religious Forums," expounding their beliefs. So worry not, atheists already have beliefs, which means that if you're considering converting them, you're already half-way there.

Well I'm not here to convert, but I do think a little more respect and acceptance is achievable and useful.
 
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Truth in love

Well-Known Member
of course, it can be seen.
I think you are neglecting the fact we have technology.
When saying "shown" it includes technology.
We cannot really see atoms, but we can measure them.
We cannot see gravity, but we can measure it.
Yes... we can actually see our brains! we know for a fact we have them ;)

When saying seeing it actually means:

Measure (including the use of tools/devices),
Observe (the thing itself or measurements of it),
Present (to others other than yourself),
Repeat (one time doesn't count.. it must be shown and measured again and again).

If one of these fails, yep... it's not considered scientific evidence ;)

So if I set up an experiment with an electromagnetic, but a cable is bad and you don't see the evidence is the theory wrong?
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
I would rewrite your first sentence as, "An invariant sentiment from skeptics and critical thinkers is that they wont believe any claim absent demonstration of sufficient supporting evidence."

Semantic quibble: I believe that electromagnetism exists, but I don't believe in it. I reserve the phrase believe in for faith-based beliefs, not sufficiently evidenced beliefs. This may illustrate the difference between believing and believing in, although he isn't using that language. I would have written that first sentence, "Truth doesn't need to be believed in":

"Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up must come down, down. down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it." -Dan Barker



Electromagnetism is posited to be the force that pulls compass needles, allows balloons to stick to the wall, and makes the night sky light up with bolts of lightning. It took the genius of Maxwell to realize that electricity, magnetism, and light were all manifestations of a single force. Nothing else accounts for any of this unless we want to invoke spirits, and adding spirits to the math and science does nothing for the science's explanatory or predictive power. This is the fundamental difference between something like the electromagnetic force and gods. We need the former to account for observation, but not the latter. Think about it: a science of the force electromagnetism with no gods, a religion of electromagnetism that postulates unseen agents with no science or math, and both combined - a physical theory with a deity thrown in. It should be apparent what's different between scientific beliefs and faith-based beliefs



What I find odd is couching that in the language of an emotion, hostility. What you are observing is people who have a different standard for belief than the theist, people who reject faith for themselves. Ask yourself why you chose that word, hostile. Nobody here has been hostile to you. They've been like me - unemotional.

What justifies calling rejection of an idea hostility for you? I have a tentative answer - an educated guess - but I'll wait to see yours.



I have a definition for gods - supernatural, sentient agents capable of building universes. If you ask me, an agnostic atheist, if I believe such a thing exists, my answer would be no, because I don't have a reason to believe that absent some finding much better explained by a supernatural intelligent designer than a naturalistic process. The critical thinker builds his world view the same way science does. His narrative evolves as new discoveries not adequately explained by the existing paradigm appear.

Falsify evolution, and I will be forced to believe that deceptive intelligent designers exist or existed to account for there being so much evidence for evolution, and yet the theory is incorrect, but not before. Even then, I would have no need to add supernaturalism into my new paradigm, which also can be explained naturalistically as the work of powerful race of aliens that arose through abiogenesis and biological evolution.



That description fits you. You don't know what you DO believe in. You can't describe it clearly. You don't know where it is or what it is. But you are correct: I don't believe whatever-it-is that YOU believe if it involves the supernatural.


"Nobody here has been hostile to you. They've been like me - unemotional." Gunna call that one out. Frequent condescending comments, insults to my knowledge and integrity have been a norm on here.

"Truth does not demand belief." Actually it does. All action requires some level of belief. if I did not believe that drink water would help my thrust I would not take that action.

In short the differences between believers and non believers is not a broad as many pretend, but many on the non believing side will not accept the reality that they need to believe in order to try to learn science and also religion.
 
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