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Do Athiests have morals?

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
bull ****.
Lying is the intent to deceive.

Now I personally do not put your bold empty claims as lying.
However, i can understand why some people would.
There is a huge murky area here.
How does one distinguish between:
1) Asserting false beliefs that one believes are false.

2) Asserting false beliefs that one believes are true, because one only looks at the evidence that supports the beliefs and dismisses the evidence that contradicts the belief.

Humans are good at both. I've noticed this.

I am a believer. I believe that religionists are more rational and compelling when they are describing the religious beliefs of others. Then they don't gloss over the irrational and incoherent teachings they prefer to believe. @a_servant_of_one can better describe Christianity than @1robin, and vice versa.

Tom
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
How can the transcendent source (God) represent object morality?
In the 10 commands Gid moralized.

1. Thou shall not kill.

Yet God destroyed most of earth in the giant Noah's flood.

Come on, you know they'll rationalize around it. God gets to do anything he wants because he made the rules. Morality doesn't apply to God.

2. Thou shall not covert another mans wife.

God impregnated Joseph's wife Mary when they were still married.

They weren't married at the time, it was a scandal for Joseph to be marrying a non-virgin. Again, they rationalize God's rape of Mary, we've seen Christians do it here all the time.

3. Thou shall have no other Gods besides him.

Yet God wanted the world to accept there were a triune of Gods.

That's because in early Hebrew mythology, they were polytheistic. There are plenty of elements within the OT that still show there were multiple gods.

There is no moral objectivity when one accepts a transcendent source. Objective morality then becomes arbitrary and moralistic projection and nothing more.

Even if one could show that there was an objective morality, that wouldn't demonstrate any god, much less the Christian God, which is exactly what he keeps trying to claim. One simply does not lead to the other, you have to show a direct causal relationship which Christians absolutely cannot do. More faulty logic from the religious, anyone surprised?
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
The fact we can invent untruths does not necessitate that we did so where you indicated. That is what I need proof of. I do not take it on your authority. You said the fact people can make things up shows that morality was made up so it's your burden.

Sorry. I'll try to stick to the morality topic. However that being said, what is morality others than a set of rules of behavior which we state what is right and what is wrong?

I grant there are probably some genetic and cultural traits which affects what I feel is right and wrong. So therefore we could probably find a lot of common ground. However we can also find areas of dispute. Like I might adopt some of the moral codes of Buddhism and you adopt those of Christianity. Buddhism was able to adopt it's morals without a God. Based on whatever they believed was true. Someone had to define this morality. Obviously you don't have to accept it but why would they need to accept yours?

There is no truth that I need to pay my taxes unless God has ordained that I should. If not then there is only costs and preferences about whether I pay them. Nothing actually right or wrong about it. The ability of the government to thro me in jail does not mean that that makes paying taxes right or wrong. Might can't make right. It can only coerce actions.

Right, correct. You can refuse to accept the moral code of any group of your choosing. Enforcement only means you might have to deal with whatever consequences deemed appropriate by the groups moral code.

Mathematics enforces it. You jump off a mountain and see if arguing with gravity will help. However enforcement was not the issue. The objective nature of it was. We can describe how gravity effects other things but we can't force that into being true. No human has ever made gravity from nothing nor do we even know what it is. We find it as a brute force in nature and construct languages to describe what it is related to and in what capacity it acts.

Jimmy Crickets, what is it with folks and using gravity to prove their point? So gravity needs math in order to exist? You can perceive the effect of gravity without math so I don't see our perception as particularly support the truth of math. I might try describing it in Japanese if I knew it. Math is a conceptual language used to describe what we see, and predict what we might perceive. Man created math to provide a more accurate language to describe what we perceive. It's not necessary but quite a bit more accurate in conveying the details of that observation than Japanese.


So far you have said mathematics was created by humanity and that is wrong unless you merely mean the language used to describe it. You said that since we can make stuff up that that means we made morality up. I cannot asses that truth of that and I don't think you can either, nor do I think it is true. You claimed that might can make right which is literally impossible. Etc....... So your claims about your claims do not hold up when examined.

Ok so lets take something you see as a mathematical truth and lets see how it holds up.

That explains why a man is perceived to have authority, it does not explain how he actually got it if he has it. A man is perceived to have authority over nature until eaten by it, perceived to have authority over a nation until it rebels (all authority in this context is subsidiary to consent), is perceived to have authority over himself until he dies or is forced to do otherwise. I want to know what actual authority (objective authority) man has and how he got it.

Ok, we know, you accept this perception of authority that man has. It is only perception/illusion. People come to understand it is only an illusion and rebel. So I'm saying this perception of authority is the only "real" authority that exists. I know it's an illusion, but we have to accept that illusion for the sake of society.

You claim the existence of an objective authority. My perception of authority can exists regardless of this objective authority. None need exist to explain why we accept the perception of authority.

What do you believe your objective authority allows for which does not or cannot exist with the situation we currently have?

How about books? They are on the bad list, or what about founding documents? Everything I said is a matter of record and that record is the result of undeniable deduction. If we have rights then something gave them to us and Governments do not have them to give, in any warehouses anywhere, and nature can't tell us the way things should be, so that kind of narrows it down the same way it did to the (non-Christian) Jefferson. You either have no rights or your need a transcendent source for them. BTW rights are things the Government is not supposed to take away not things they bestow. Without God your claims to rights are illusions no better than the weapons you have to ensure them. With God they are inherent and no one escapes depriving another of them.

Government takes away and bestow right as they see fit. If these rights are not enforced by somebody, then they don't really exist. Calling them God given is just something to pretend there is some justification for it.

Hey, I glad to have the enforcement of this rights. I don't want to rock the boat, as a matter of convenience. If I had the ability to enforce my own will, then maybe you'd have to worry. All of your rights you think you have can be taken away from you by anyone possessing the power to do so. Your right to life, liberty and the pursuit of can be taken away by anyone wit ha gun.

So nothing you have said we have do we actually have then. We do not have any authority only a belief that we do, we do not have rights just the belief, we do not have morals just the belief we do. Thanks God no society has ever been formed by those standards. How do you make a society from nihilism? A society based on your reality really would be chaos.

We are talking about reality and perception. The perception of a truth, whether it has anything to do with reality of not prevents the chaos. Doesn't make the perception true, it only means the perception is more important than whether any truth exists.

You believe in a God, great. If you think as if and act as if this is true, then it really doesn't matter whether it is true. You life would be the same regardless of the truth.

Yes the reality is chaos, man brings order through belief in whatever truth they accept as true.

Order is better than chaos, so whatever truth people end up believing is better than reality.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Hi 1robin,

Stalin and Pol Pot were rejecting religious dogma and inserting their own dogma. Most of the atheists I know are opposed to dogma. Since the despots you mentioned were creating their own new dogma, I don't think it's really accurate to call them secular. Secularism is to separate church and state, and these guys were just creating a new church. Your argument is a little bit like saying that since Hitler was a vegetarian, vegetarians are bad.

Yes, I've seen the Hitchens brothers debate, odd indeed :)

We need the dogma of some kind. Society needs dogma of some kind. Yours, mine, somebody we all want to follow.

Natural law or whatever you can get people to agree to accept. The US was freedom of religion, freedom to determine our own taxes, some vague idea of liberty. Whatever you can get people to agree to. Provide them a truth and provide them a vested self interest. If you can come up with a kinder gentler dogma, I'm all for it.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
We need the dogma of some kind. Society needs dogma of some kind. Yours, mine, somebody we all want to follow.

Natural law or whatever you can get people to agree to accept. The US was freedom of religion, freedom to determine our own taxes, some vague idea of liberty. Whatever you can get people to agree to. Provide them a truth and provide them a vested self interest. If you can come up with a kinder gentler dogma, I'm all for it.

I don't know. The way I'm reading your post it seems more like you're describing axioms or postulates. Do you have a specific example of a dogma associated with the creation of the US?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Something I was thinking... if atheists, or any other people, had no morals, would that not make them for all intents and purposes "biological" demons?

How else could a human-like being with no morals be described? Unless he was catatonic, I suppose...
 

McBell

Unbound
There is a huge murky area here.
How does one distinguish between:
1) Asserting false beliefs that one believes are false.

2) Asserting false beliefs that one believes are true, because one only looks at the evidence that supports the beliefs and dismisses the evidence that contradicts the belief.

Humans are good at both. I've noticed this.

I am a believer. I believe that religionists are more rational and compelling when they are describing the religious beliefs of others. Then they don't gloss over the irrational and incoherent teachings they prefer to believe. @a_servant_of_one can better describe Christianity than @1robin, and vice versa.

Tom
Except 1Robin likes to say things like "declarations are not arguments" yet fills post after post with nothing but bold empty claims.
So yes, I can see where some people would take it as lying.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I don't know. The way I'm reading your post it seems more like you're describing axioms or postulates. Do you have a specific example of a dogma associated with the creation of the US?

Dogma is a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true. It serves as part of the primary basis of an ideology or belief system, and it cannot be changed or discarded without affecting the very system's paradigm, or the ideology itself.

In this case the concept of natural rights prevalent in the US Constitution and Bill of Rights.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Dogma is a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true. It serves as part of the primary basis of an ideology or belief system, and it cannot be changed or discarded without affecting the very system's paradigm, or the ideology itself.

In this case the concept of natural rights prevalent in the US Constitution and Bill of Rights.

But the Bill of Rights were the first *amendments*... Try *amending* the Quran or the ten commandments - now there's some dogma for you!
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
I don't know. The way I'm reading your post it seems more like you're describing axioms or postulates. Do you have a specific example of a dogma associated with the creation of the US?

From where I'm sitting, it seems to be another wild redefinition of terms.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
But the Bill of Rights were the first *amendments*... Try *amending* the Quran or the ten commandments - now there's some dogma for you!

Not saying the Constitution is bad. Just I don't believe there is a true purpose or plan for man. It means we are free to make our own purpose and plan. Whatever we feel we have the ability to create.

Truth is dependent on what we accept. Each individual accepts the truth that is apparent to them.

If there is an objective reality of some kind, Humans have no real way to validate it. As science advances, what we come to accept as truth changes. I don't think we are anywhere near the end of that process.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Not saying the Constitution is bad. Just I don't believe there is a true purpose or plan for man. It means we are free to make our own purpose and plan. Whatever we feel we have the ability to create.

Truth is dependent on what we accept. Each individual accepts the truth that is apparent to them.

If there is an objective reality of some kind, Humans have no real way to validate it. As science advances, what we come to accept as truth changes. I don't think we are anywhere near the end of that process.

Right, but I still think you're conflating "axiom" with "dogma".
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
Not my wild redefinition. Funny thing about language, words have alternate definitions.

Yeah they do, but those alternate definitions, if legitimate, appear in the dictionary. You don't get to take established language and twist it to your own means. That's blatant linguistic dishonesty but it seems rampant among religious apologists.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Right, but I still think you're conflating "axiom" with "dogma".

Only if you assume natural rights are self evident.
Since I don't, dogma is the appropriate word to convey what I meant.

Assuming you believe in natural rights, how would you justify this position?
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
It seems to me that you're making philosophical claims, and that philosophies start with a few axioms or postulates and build from there. It could be that in this situation you could replace the word "axiom" with "dogma", but I've never seen it done. And, if this IS your intention, could you confirm it?
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
Assuming you believe in natural rights, how would you justify this position?

That's the problem, they can't justify it any more than the religious can justify their position. It's all blind faith, based on bald assertion and no evidence or critical evaluation.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
I can accept it but I cannot excuse it. It meets every requirement to by submersible as evidence under ancient document laws but nothing I said here requires it to be. The bible in my claims has been a premise which bore out under investigation. The bible posits a rational God who would create a rational universe. A rational universe is found which validates the bible.

That is not the consensus view. I have heard so many times that the chances are so astronomically against blind forces creating rationality either in nature or in our minds to decode it that despite I do not understand that exactly I do respect the pervasiveness of that claim.

Looking at stick insects is not really the place where this becomes apparent. It is more in the ability to comprehend abstract mathematical principles and physical deductions. Natural selection might explain why looking at a horse communicates the fact he is strong but it does not explain why we can tear his muscles apart and figure out exactly how they work. To debate what time is. To discourse on the nature of morality. In fact it is so rare that of all the minds we are aware of only one has the capacity to reason out the riddles of the universe proper. Any Library will contain only a few percent of material hat has any survival value but tons that contain learning for the sake of learning. Most animals seem to think primarily about things related to survival and little more but we are totally unique in our capacity to extract meaning and principle from reality.

That explains why I might think something is good or bad not why I would think hat good or bad is an objective realm. It explains why I might think the sun is hot not why I think about thermodynamics. Explains why I might understand two pieces of food are better than one not why I think about triple integrals. Explain why I know I should not jump from a cliff not why gravity is related to mass.

So since our ability to rationalize is quantum leaps ahead of what we need to survive you have disproven your own argument. Out of our eco systems? We are out of our galaxy in knowledge long before we have really left our planet physically.


If you find a principle existing in nature then you need to account for it. If we find the universe is lawful then that needs an explanation. It is either a natural necessity or it is in need of a transcended explanation. Rational things like freewill (and the ability to reason about what that means), morality, a lawful universe, mathematics, what gravity is, etc.. do not seem to have any natural explanation. They are abstract furniture we just happen to find in existence without an explanation beyond God.


Well like I said (I didn't say to work properly by the way) brute facts only have two explanations. The first is not really an explanation but it is where many people stop. Either natural necessity can account for a thing or something transcendent must. You have nature and beyond nature to shoes from. If it is not the former the later is the only refuge left. I will let another give you a quote the bears this out.

"A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a super intellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature."
Fred Hoyle

When Mr. Hoyle says you need the transcendent to account for science then attempts to dismiss the idea seem absurd.

Well that is disconcerting.

Hey don't include me in your intellectual self annihilation or nihilism.

Let me ask this. Are there laws of logic?
Does mathematics exist?
Does gravity exist?
Does morality exist?
Does abstract reasoning exist?
Does a lawful universe exist?
Do any of the things found as brute facts without much in the way of a natural necessity exist?

If we believe that logic can exist/work only if God exists, then the logical conclusion is that only a theistic worldview is logically coherent and all arguments that are not based on a theistic premise are necessarily self defeating. That is, we embrace presuppositionalism and its extensions, like the trascendent arguments for the existence of God.

That this kind of "philosophy" is hopelessly victim of circularity is obvious. Evidential theologians like W.L.Craig actually ridicule it, noticing, correctly, that they all beg the question and reduce to "if God exists, then God exists". Therefore, the untenability of such arguments is a logical conclusion that has nothing to do with being atheist or theist, nihilist or not nihilist (I assume Craig is not a nihilist atheist).

So much for the necessity of God from the laws of logic.

So, what's next in line?. You put a lot of things on the table, each requiring a separate thread.

I propose to address first your question "does morality exist?" On account of being in line with the OP. I suppose you mean objective morality.

Of course, the existence of objectve morality does not entail the existence of God unless we, again, beg the question by attributing to God the nature of objectivity.

Put let's analyze the premise first: objective morality exists.

I claim it does not. You claim it does. You make the positive claim.

Can you provide evidence that objective morality exists? At present, I perceive the proclaimed evidence of objective morality at the same level as the evidence for Bigfoot or alien abductions.

Let's take an example that is somewhat becoming controversial even within the Christian community, at least here in Europe: the day-after pill.

I claim that the day-after pill is not only acceptable but it is actually a good idea in order to prevent possble pregnancy. Its alleged moral objections are ridicolous, for the simple reason that one day old duplicating human cells cannot be called a person. Period.

If objective morality exists and you do not agree with my moral predicate, then I expect to show me who is right in a clear cut and unambiguous way. In the same way I could prove to you an objecive mathematical truth or the objective existence of gravity.

I hope it is easy to see that delegating the existence of objective morality to beings which have even less evidence of existing will not be very helpful.

Ciao

- viole
 
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