Do Christians believe the messiah is supposed to bring peace?

[punkdbass]

I have always been taught that the Hebrew Bible tells us the messiah will bring peace (as well as many other things of course). About a week ago I had a long coversation with an Evangelical Christian about how our religions differ on the concept of the messiah and what he is supposed to do. I asked him if the messiah is supposed to bring peace - as Micah 4:3-4 says:

"Thus he will judge among the many peoples, and arbitrate for the multitude of nations, however distant; and they shall beat their swords into plow shares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not take up sword against nation; they shall never again know war"

And he told me that he does not believe this will ever happen. I found it interesting that this man did not have faith that this would happen, when so much of Christianity is based upon faith in the messiah.

Several months ago I had done a lot of research on Christianity and Jesus, and was beginning to accept the possibility that Jesus could possibly have been the messiah, and that through the power of the gospels and his teachings that universal peace, universal knowledge of God, rebuilding the third temple, and reuniting all the Jews to Israel(among several other unfulfilled prophecies) would eventually be fulfilled because of Jesus. But then a person pointed out to me how Muhammed, Ghandi, Buddha, and several other religious figures have arguable contributed just as much to these prophecies, if not more, than what Jesus has. So again I was back to square one of rejecting Jesus as the messiah... I guess I just really want to be able to understand the Christian view of Jesus as the Messiah, for I am confused.

Anyhow, so my question is, do Christians believe the messiah is supposed to bring peace? I simply want to understand why our views of the messiah differ so greatly, anyone who could help explain this to me, I will greatly appreciate it

Sorry for the lengthy post, I am not trying to start a debate at all, I just want to hear your guys responses! Thanks.

 

[esmith]

Good question.
The way I read the New Testament, Jesus did not totally fulfill the prophecies of the Messiah as stated in the (this is a Christian DIR so will use Christian terms) Old Testament. However, on his second coming, as believed by those of the Christian faith, he will return.
So was he to bring peace on this first coming or is that to be reserved for the second coming. In his first coming he supposedly fulfilled many of the prophecies. But he did not fill all of them, peace being one of them. Therefore, I do not think he was to bring peace until his "second coming". Of course the term "peace" is a gray area as far as what happens in the "second coming". So in an attempt to answer your question, I think it would have to be No and a qualified yes.

 

[dmgdnooc]

The peace will come when he has destroyed the capacity of the nations to make war against him.
We won't give in without a fight. see Psalm 2

 

[Sum1sGruj]

In the scheme of things, the Messiah is supposed to bring peace. If you are Christian, the Messiah commands us to be righteous and peaceful.
But, the Christian Messiah also speaks of him and the belief as a sword, not a shield. So there definitely is some chivalrous gambits involved. The most acting one being that many people are going to hell.

 

[horizon_mj1]

I have always been taught that the Hebrew Bible tells us the messiah will bring peace (as well as many other things of course). About a week ago I had a long coversation with an Evangelical Christian about how our religions differ on the concept of the messiah and what he is supposed to do. I asked him if the messiah is supposed to bring peace - as Micah 4:3-4 says:

"Thus he will judge among the many peoples, and arbitrate for the multitude of nations, however distant; and they shall beat their swords into plow shares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not take up sword against nation; they shall never again know war"

And he told me that he does not believe this will ever happen. I found it interesting that this man did not have faith that this would happen, when so much of Christianity is based upon faith in the messiah.

Several months ago I had done a lot of research on Christianity and Jesus, and was beginning to accept the possibility that Jesus could possibly have been the messiah, and that through the power of the gospels and his teachings that universal peace, universal knowledge of God, rebuilding the third temple, and reuniting all the Jews to Israel(among several other unfulfilled prophecies) would eventually be fulfilled because of Jesus. But then a person pointed out to me how Muhammed, Ghandi, Buddha, and several other religious figures have arguable contributed just as much to these prophecies, if not more, than what Jesus has. So again I was back to square one of rejecting Jesus as the messiah... I guess I just really want to be able to understand the Christian view of Jesus as the Messiah, for I am confused.

Anyhow, so my question is, do Christians believe the messiah is supposed to bring peace? I simply want to understand why our views of the messiah differ so greatly, anyone who could help explain this to me, I will greatly appreciate it

Sorry for the lengthy post, I am not trying to start a debate at all, I just want to hear your guys responses! Thanks.

My favorite book in the Hebrew English translation of the Bible King James Version, Revelations. Yes the ultimate prize to mankind will be peace, but there is a high price to pay for this (Jesus being exemplary of this) such as death, famine, and war, all of which are choices of mankind. Once this "war" is fought with divine interventions from the other deities, all combined, humanity will reach its threshold of being the true dominate species on this planet. I guess you can say there is a high price to pay for perfection.

 

[sojourner]

The ancient Hebrew understanding of peace (and of the Messiah) are that peace = military peace and the Messiah will effect salvation through leading Israel to a return to the mythic days when they were unchallenged militarily.

The Christian understanding is a bit different. I think the way most of us look at peace is a peace within ourselves. And the Messiah saves us to be a nation, not based in geography or ethnicity, but based in community of all humankind.

 

[punkdbass]

Therefore, I do not think he was to bring peace until his "second coming".

Thanks for the reply, I have heard of this concept of a second coming. I have faith that the messiah - whoever he is- will fulfill all of the messianic prophecies. So I have another question for you if that's ok? This might not be the best place to ask this question, but am I not supposed to accept a person as the messiah UNTIL he fulfills ALL of the messianic prophecies? For I know the prophets told us of the messianic prophecies so that we would know who the messiah was, because he would fulfill them. So am i not to accept someone as the messiah, until they fulfill all of the prophecies?

Thanks.

If you are Christian, the Messiah commands us to be righteous and peaceful.

Right, I am aware that Jesus taught this, as well as many other religions and religious figures.

My favorite book in the Hebrew English translation of the Bible King James Version, Revelations. Yes the ultimate prize to mankind will be peace, but there is a high price to pay for this (Jesus being exemplary of this) such as death, famine, and war, all of which are choices of mankind. Once this "war" is fought with divine interventions from the other deities, all combined, humanity will reach its threshold of being the true dominate species on this planet. I guess you can say there is a high price to pay for perfection.

Interesting, thank you for the reply. Correct me if Im wrong, but you believe that many different religions/peoples will come together to contribute in this struggle for peace? I like that idea.

The ancient Hebrew understanding of peace (and of the Messiah) are that peace = military peace and the Messiah will effect salvation through leading Israel to a return to the mythic days when they were unchallenged militarily.

Pretty much - "and they shall beat their swords into plow shares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not take up sword against nation; they shall never again know war""

The Christian understanding is a bit different. I think the way most of us look at peace is a peace within ourselves. And the Messiah saves us to be a nation, not based in geography or ethnicity, but based in community of all humankind.

Interesting, thank you for the reply. This makes a lot of sense to me that the messiah would do this.

Thank you all for the replies!

 

[esmith]

Thanks for the reply, I have heard of this concept of a second coming. I have faith that the messiah - whoever he is- will fulfill all of the messianic prophecies. So I have another question for you if that's ok? This might not be the best place to ask this question, but am I not supposed to accept a person as the messiah UNTIL he fulfills ALL of the messianic prophecies? For I know the prophets told us of the messianic prophecies so that we would know who the messiah was, because he would fulfill them. So am i not to accept someone as the messiah, until they fulfill all of the prophecies?

Thanks.

If you believe that the messiah has to meet all the requirements as specified in the Old Testament/Tanakh then he was not the messiah.

 

[wordmagnifiedabovenames]

I think the main difference comes because of the differences between the first and second comings. Jews (in general) look for the Messiah in terms of His bringing peace, uniting Israel, bringing judgement (like Enoch prophecied) etc. As Jesus didn't do this 2000ish years ago, Jews (in general) don't acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah. He can't have been because at the time He hadn't fulfilled all of the messianic prophecies, meaning that He was just a Jew who was crucified; there was nothing special about Him.

Christians (in general) point to what happened 2000ish years ago as the 1st coming, (when Jesus didn't come to judge, rather to minister than be ministered unto,) and believe that the rest of the Messianic prophecies will be fulfilled during the 2nd coming. Personally I like to line up the book of Hebrews with Gen 14 (among other passages) to see Jesus bringing peace.

 

[punkdbass]

If you believe that the messiah has to meet all the requirements as specified in the Old Testament/Tanakh then he was not the messiah.

Could you elaborate on what you mean by this?

I do believe that the messiah has to fulfill ALL of the messianic prophecies. I understand that determining whether or not a prophecy is even messianic can be pretty difficult sometimes though. Some of the messianic prophecies that are mentioned the most are

1. world peace [FONT=&quot](Micah 4:3-4, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Isaiah 2:4, Isaiah 11:6)[/FONT]
2. universal knowledge of God (Isaiah 66:23, Isaiah 11:9, Isaiah 40:5, Zephaniah 3:9, Zechariah 14:9)
3. Bring all the Jews back to Israel [FONT=&quot](Isaiah 11:12, Isaiah 43:5-6, Isaiah 27:12-13)[/FONT]
4. Rebuild the 3rd Temple [FONT=&quot](Ezekiel 37:26 – 27, Micah 4:1-2)[/FONT]
5. Direct descendant of David through his son Solomon [FONT=&quot](I Chronicles 22:10, II Chronicles 7:18)

I do believe that the messiah will fulfill all of these prophecies, as well as many others that I have not mentioned.
[/FONT]

 

[Sum1sGruj]

Could you elaborate on what you mean by this?

I do believe that the messiah has to fulfill ALL of the messianic prophecies. I understand that determining whether or not a prophecy is even messianic can be pretty difficult sometimes though. Some of the messianic prophecies that are mentioned the most are

1. world peace [FONT=&quot](Micah 4:3-4, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Isaiah 2:4, Isaiah 11:6)[/FONT]
2. universal knowledge of God (Isaiah 66:23, Isaiah 11:9, Isaiah 40:5, Zephaniah 3:9, Zechariah 14:9)
3. Bring all the Jews back to Israel [FONT=&quot](Isaiah 11:12, Isaiah 43:5-6, Isaiah 27:12-13)[/FONT]
4. Rebuild the 3rd Temple [FONT=&quot](Ezekiel 37:26 – 27, Micah 4:1-2)[/FONT]
5. Direct descendant of David through his son Solomon [FONT=&quot](I Chronicles 22:10, II Chronicles 7:18)

I do believe that the messiah will fulfill all of these prophecies, as well as many others that I have not mentioned.
[/FONT]

Jews were upset that Jesus wasn't what they expected, that they were going to be granted a free ticket despite their flaws.
Jesus is going to fulfill these things, it's just that God is taking into account all of man, not just the Jews.

But I would expect that God saw how things were going to turn out, and so a recourse is in effect. Perhaps if the Jews did not label Jesus as a heretic and condemn him, he would have done things sooner. Certain thing smust be taken into account before hiding behind prophesy, as if 'prophesy' ever turns out the exact way one thinks.

At least that is how I see it. The NT is very Jewish, and many Jews followed Jesus thereafter. It never seemed to me so alienated from Judaism as some Jews try to make it out to be.
Another thing is, what do most of these prophesies really amount to in these modern times anyway? I really believe there is much more to the picture (being Christian and all)

 

[esmith]

Could you elaborate on what you mean by this?

I do believe that the messiah has to fulfill ALL of the messianic prophecies. I understand that determining whether or not a prophecy is even messianic can be pretty difficult sometimes though. Some of the messianic prophecies that are mentioned the most are

1. world peace [FONT=&quot](Micah 4:3-4, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Isaiah 2:4, Isaiah 11:6)[/FONT]
2. universal knowledge of God (Isaiah 66:23, Isaiah 11:9, Isaiah 40:5, Zephaniah 3:9, Zechariah 14:9)
3. Bring all the Jews back to Israel [FONT=&quot](Isaiah 11:12, Isaiah 43:5-6, Isaiah 27:12-13)[/FONT]
4. Rebuild the 3rd Temple [FONT=&quot](Ezekiel 37:26 – 27, Micah 4:1-2)[/FONT]
5. Direct descendant of David through his son Solomon [FONT=&quot](I Chronicles 22:10, II Chronicles 7:18)

I do believe that the messiah will fulfill all of these prophecies, as well as many others that I have not mentioned.
[/FONT]

You wanted me to elaborate of my statement " If you believe that the messiah has to meet all the requirements as specified in the Old Testament/Tanakh then he was not the messiah."

Very simple, the OP asked the question "Do Christians believe that the messiah is supposed to bring peace" The general consensus, so far, was that Jesus did not bring world peace. Then the OP simply wanted to understand why his faith's views of the messiah differ so greatly from that of Christians. Since the OP listed his faith as Jewish we know that those of the Jewish faith do not accept Jesus as the messiah as prophesied in the Old Testament/Tanakh since he did not meet or fulfill all the prophecies . Therefor there is no reason for the OP to accept Jesus as the messiah until all of the "requirements" are met and fulfilled .

 

[dmgdnooc]

Could you elaborate on what you mean by this?

I do believe that the messiah has to fulfill ALL of the messianic prophecies. I understand that determining whether or not a prophecy is even messianic can be pretty difficult sometimes though. Some of the messianic prophecies that are mentioned the most are

1. world peace [FONT=&quot](Micah 4:3-4, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Isaiah 2:4, Isaiah 11:6)[/FONT]
2. universal knowledge of God (Isaiah 66:23, Isaiah 11:9, Isaiah 40:5, Zephaniah 3:9, Zechariah 14:9)
3. Bring all the Jews back to Israel [FONT=&quot](Isaiah 11:12, Isaiah 43:5-6, Isaiah 27:12-13)[/FONT]
4. Rebuild the 3rd Temple [FONT=&quot](Ezekiel 37:26 – 27, Micah 4:1-2)[/FONT]
5. Direct descendant of David through his son Solomon [FONT=&quot](I Chronicles 22:10, II Chronicles 7:18)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I do believe that the messiah will fulfill all of these prophecies, as well as many others that I have not mentioned.
[/FONT]

Here is a short survey of why Christians identify Jesus as the Messiah.
　
The Messiah is the Son of David
2Samuel 7.12-13, Jeremiah 30.9, Micah 5.2
who is also the Son of God.
Gen 3.15, Isaiah 7.14, 1Chronicles 17.13, Psalm 89.26-27, Psalm 2.7
　
His appearance would be heralded by a Prophet's call to repentance.
Isaiah 40.3, Malachi 3.1
　
The core of his ministry would be teaching
Isaiah 61.1-2, Isaiah 50.4
and his authority would be confirmed by miracles.
Isaiah 35.3-6
　
But his own nation would reject him.
Isaiah 53.3, Isaiah 49.7, Isaiah 50.6, Psalm 69.19-20
　
He would suffer shamefully, being crucified alive
Psalm 22.16-18
and suffer uncomplainingly
Psalm 22.6-7, Isaiah 53.7
as the redeemer, the sacrifice whom God had provided.
Isaiah 53.4-6, Genesis 22.8
　
All that he did and said was confirmed to be from God by his resurrection from the dead
Micah 7.7-8, Psalm 16.10-11
and he then ascended to his Father to await the time of the fulfillment of all things.
Psalm 16.11, Psalm 110.1
　
So from this point, and it is only a brief survey, a Christian can identify Jesus as the Messiah.
There is no need for a Christian to wait until Jah's salvation is called for by the Jews in Jerusalem in the time of their greatest distress,
Matthew 23.39, Joel 2.32, Zechariah 14.2
when he shall return and they shall look on him whom they pierced, and the wounds in his hands, and mourn and rejoice.
Acts 1.11, Zechariah 14.4, Zechariah 12.10, Zechariah 13.6
　
And even from that point in his work, with, as yet, no universal peace; no universal knowledge, Jews still living among the nations, the Temple not constructed; your argument would be that he was not the Messiah.
　
Do you see my point?
How much of Messiah's work must Messiah complete before he is accepted?

 

[esmith]

dmgdnooc;
I do not think that the OP original idea was to dispute Christians belief that Jesus was the messiah. Basically, the OP faith does not recognize Jesus as the messiah for various reasons. I may be wrong, but I think they would like to discuss why some accept Jesus as the messiah while others do not.
Unfortunately, the dividing line between a discussion and a debate is a thin line and could very well be crossed and this is not a debate section.
Would you accept the premiss that those that do not accept Jesus as the messiah do so because Jesus did not fulfill all of the prophesies and those that accept Jesus as the messiah do so because he either met some of the prophesies and/or will eventually met all of the prophesies?

 

[dmgdnooc]

esmith,
my intention is to point out that universal peace is, just about, the last thing that is on the Messiah's extremely long worksheet.
So, it is illogical to base non-acceptance of Jesus on the basis that universal peace has not yet been achieved.
　
Christians recognise Jesus as the Messiah on the basis of prophecies that have been fulfilled in him.
And, of course, I have sought to show, by a brief and incomplete survey, that Jesus has performed that portion of the Messiah's work that is preparatory to the later work that is yet to be undertaken.
Because it seems, to me, that punkdbass should be aware that some Christians, even many Christians, do look to the time of the fulfillment of all things.
　
nooc

 

[esmith]

Yes, I see that you have listed many items that prophesies the messiah. However, wouldn't you consider that world peace would be one of the most important?

 

[dmgdnooc]

No, I consider the matter of the atonement to be of principal importance.
So, the events of the Cross come before the universal peace.

 

[punkdbass]

At least that is how I see it. The NT is very Jewish, and many Jews followed Jesus thereafter. It never seemed to me so alienated from Judaism as some Jews try to make it out to be.
Another thing is, what do most of these prophesies really amount to in these modern times anyway? I really believe there is much more to the picture (being Christian and all)

Thanks for the reply. I do plan on reading the NT eventually.. but as of right now I just cant see myself relating to Christianity, simply because too much of Christian theology directly contradicts what I am taught in the Hebrew Bible - but of course I wont talk about that kind of stuff here in the Christianity DIR.

Very simple, the OP asked the question "Do Christians believe that the messiah is supposed to bring peace" The general consensus, so far, was that Jesus did not bring world peace. Then the OP simply wanted to understand why his faith's views of the messiah differ so greatly from that of Christians. Since the OP listed his faith as Jewish we know that those of the Jewish faith do not accept Jesus as the messiah as prophesied in the Old Testament/Tanakh since he did not meet or fulfill all the prophecies . Therefor there is no reason for the OP to accept Jesus as the messiah until all of the "requirements" are met and fulfilled .

Thank you for your respectful reply. In your opinion, is there anything wrong with not accepting the messiah until he fulfills all of the prophecies? I mean.. no where in the Hebrew Bible does it say I need to "accept" or "believe" in the messiah, and no where does it say that eternal salvation is achieved through devotion to the messiah. rather we need to accept and put our faith and devotion in God - our savior. So is there anything wrong with not accepting the messiah until he fulfills all the prophecies? I mean, I have perfect faith that the messiah will come and all of the prophecies will be fulfilled, God knows I have faith in his promise(so if I am wrong and Jesus really is indeed the messiah, I do not think God will punish me for having faith in God and his promises/prophecy) What are your thoughts on this?

Here is a short survey of why Christians identify Jesus as the Messiah.

I do not want to start a debate, so if you want to hear my thoughts on these so called "prophecies" feel free to send me a PM. I just want to point out that if you read the NT and accept Jesus, OBVIOUSLY when you go back and read the OT you are going to try and find as many connections to Jesus as possible - its called Confirmation Bias. I understand that Christians identify Jesus as the messiah.

Yes, I see that you have listed many items that prophesies the messiah. However, wouldn't you consider that world peace would be one of the most important?

I agree that it would be. The most commonly themed prophecies of the messiah are that he will bring peace, universal knowledge/worship of God, gather all the dispersed Jews back to Israel, and rebuild the Third Temple.

 

[dmgdnooc]

OK, esmith, so that was somewhat brief. I'll expand a little.
　
There is an order to the events of Messianic prophecy; and while it may sometimes be difficult to identify a Messianic prophecy it may also be difficult to place an event in its proper place in that order, which complicates the matter,
But generally not unduly because logic will mostly provide an answer to the complication.
　
Clearly Jesus had to be born before he could learn, learn before he could teach, be heralded before he began to teach, teach before a miracle confirmed his teaching, and so on.
And he taught the Jews, he was not sent to the Gentiles, and the Gospel was proclaimed to the Jews first and then to the Gentiles.
Jews first, because God loved their fathers, and then Gentiles is a Bible principle.
　
And that principle governs where universal peace comes in the order of Messianic events.
The Messiah must first bring peace to the Jews, in Jerusalem, before it can be extended to the Gentiles and become universal.
Right now both Jews and Gentiles appear content to rely on the power of their own arms when it comes to national security.
Humanity is not ready at this time; there are a few events that must first come to pass before either will accept the security offered by the Messiah's Kingdom.
And the first to accept will be the Jews.

 

[esmith]

Thank you for your respectful reply. In your opinion, is there anything wrong with not accepting the messiah until he fulfills all of the prophecies? I mean.. no where in the Hebrew Bible does it say I need to "accept" or "believe" in the messiah, and no where does it say that eternal salvation is achieved through devotion to the messiah. rather we need to accept and put our faith and devotion in God - our savior. So is there anything wrong with not accepting the messiah until he fulfills all the prophecies? I mean, I have perfect faith that the messiah will come and all of the prophecies will be fulfilled, God knows I have faith in his promise(so if I am wrong and Jesus really is indeed the messiah, I do not think God will punish me for having faith in God and his promises/prophecy) What are your thoughts on this?

Will attempt to answer you. First I see nothing wrong with not accepting Jesus as the messiah, I do not and I am not Jewish. I believe in the God of the Old Testament, but like you not sure about Jesus as the messiah. As far as God punishing you for not accepting Jesus as per the Christian belief I would have to say no. The original covenant was between God and the people of Israel and as long as you keep the original covenant you are fulfilling your obligations. Now in my case, I am not and never did enter into the original covenant. If there was a new covenant established, as put forth in the New Testament, I might be in trouble. But I would like to think that if I keep the moral laws, to the best of my ability, that God would forgive me. I guess eventually I will find out.