Do Christians Worship Paul?

[Onkara]

According to whom?

And how is this verified?

According to the Bible. It is verified through reading it (Through reading Paul's work and the Gospels)

 

[Sleeppy]

Why does this remind me of the Mormon thing that a prophet doesn't always speak as a prophet? It is a nice way to dodge things you don't like being said but it is pretty damn dishonest. Either Paul had authority or he didn't he can't have it both ways.

Everything, living or otherwise, has it both ways. Liken it to knowing addition and subtraction, but not knowing multiplication or division, and speculating on how they work. Or scientific theories. Or educated guessing. God is the only one who can utilize complete authority.

By 'you', who do you mean? Who sees that?

In what instances is he speaking with authority, what is that authority based on, and what reasoning indicates that any of it is true?


What arguments are used to indicate where he is speaking on true authority?

Authority from God is foremost. Everything else is secondary and illusory. Authority from God determines the authenticity and the guarantee. When I'm recognizing Paul's authority, I'm agreeing due to the overlap of mutual authority. For example.. Your boss can only boss you around as far as you allow. That's the authority overlap. Authority shifts from person to person, thing to thing. The wall may yeild to my fist, or my fist may yeild to the wall. Or equilibrium.

 

[Penumbra]

According to the Bible. It is verified through reading it.

Which part of the Bible?

How is that part of the Bible verified to be true?

 

[Penumbra]

Everything, living or otherwise, has it both ways. Liken it to knowing addition and subtraction, but not knowing multiplication or division, and speculating on how they work. Or scientific theories. Or educated guessing. God is the only one who can utilize complete authority.

Authority from God is foremost. Everything else is secondary and illusory. Authority from God determines the authenticity and the guarantee. When I'm recognizing Paul's authority, I'm agreeing due to the overlap of mutual authority. For example.. Your boss can only boss you around as far as you allow. That's the authority overlap. Authority shifts from person to person, thing to thing. The wall may yeild to my fist, or my fist may yeild to the wall. Or equilibrium.

Where is your starting point for determining that Paul ever had any authority at all?

 

[dawny0826]

Well I'm participating in another thread where a member here wants to discriminate legal marriage based on sexual orientation entirely for religious reasons, and uses quotes from Paul as "God's will" for it.

This is not a one-time occurrence, and I see it all the time. People use Paul's authority for all sorts of religious doctrine.

I don't think all Christians equate Paul's words with God's words. Just quite a number of them.

Paul wasn't the only one to comment on the "sinful" nature of homosexuality. Christ himself defined marriage to be a union between man and woman. Marriage was defined as being between a man and woman in the OT as well. Some people prefer to quote Paul. I don't understand why this is a problem.

 

[Onkara]

Which part of the Bible?

How is that part of the Bible verified to be true?

Jesus promises the Holy Spirit:

John 14.15 - 17
15 Jesus said to his disciples:

If you love me, you will do as I command. 16 Then I will ask the Father to send you the Holy Spirit who will help you and always be with you. 17 The Spirit will show you what is true. The people of this world cannot accept the Spirit, because they don’t see or know him. But you know the Spirit, who is with you and will keep on living in you.

Paul receives the Holy Spirit:
Acts 13.9
9 Then Saul, better known as Paul, was filled with the Holy Spirit.

Paul can also give the Holy Spirit to others:
Acts 19:6
Then Paul placed his hands on them. The Holy Spirit was given to them, and they spoke unknown languages and prophesied.

 

[dawny0826]

Which part of the Bible?

How is that part of the Bible verified to be true?

With all due respect, how is ANY part of the Bible VERIFIED to be truth? The bible centers around a faith concept. One either believes or they don't, based upon their own criteria of acceptance.

 

[Penumbra]

Paul wasn't the only one to comment on the "sinful" nature of homosexuality. Christ himself defined marriage to be a union between man and woman.

Where did Jesus define this union?

Marriage was defined as being between a man and woman in the OT as well.

Marriage meant all sorts of things in the OT:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-religious-debates/140666-redefining-marriage.html

Many Christians disregard most of the OT. They don't fret about shellfish and mixed fabrics and picking up sticks on the Sabbath. Any laws from the OT are generally only cherry-picked, and many of the ones that are often put forth as still being relevant are ones that Paul mentioned in his letters.

 

[Penumbra]

Jesus promises the Holy Spirit:

John 14.15 - 17
15 Jesus said to his disciples:

If you love me, you will do as I command. 16 Then I will ask the Father to send you the Holy Spirit who will help you and always be with you. 17 The Spirit will show you what is true. The people of this world cannot accept the Spirit, because they don’t see or know him. But you know the Spirit, who is with you and will keep on living in you.

Paul wasn't there. He wasn't in that group of followers when Jesus was alive in the stories.

Paul receives the Holy Spirit:
Acts 13.9
9 Then Saul, better known as Paul, was filled with the Holy Spirit.

According to an unverified author. How did this author know?

Paul can also give the Holy Spirit to others:
Acts 19:6
Then Paul placed his hands on them. The Holy Spirit was given to them, and they spoke unknown languages and prophesied.

People speak in 'tongues' in churches today, but those preachers don't have their words given as much authority as Paul.

All sorts of people 'say' they have the Holy Spirit. I'm sure most Christians wouldn't agree that if someone says they have the Holy Spirit, then they definitely do and that their teachings are authoritative, because anybody can do that.

 

[Onkara]

Paul wasn't there. He wasn't in that group of followers when Jesus was alive in the stories.

Can you prove that to me please?
EDIT: Ok wikipedia says it was a vision of Jesus.

Here is a verse they can use:
Acts 22
12 “And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there, 13 came to me, and standing by me said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight.’ And at that very hour I received my sight and saw him. 14 And he said, ‘The God of our fathers appointed you to know his will, to see the Righteous One and to hear a voice from his mouth; 15 for you will be a witness for him to everyone of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

 

[oldbadger]

My impression is that Paul had authority through the Holy Spirit. I also think Jesus asked the apostles to go forward and spread the word?

Paul was at odds with the apostles. He was at odds with Jesus's brother. He was at odds with his prior employers because he reneged on his contract to suppress difficult Jewish-christian groups.

The majority of rules and laws that christians wave high.... came from Paul.

Paul's convert, John, (probably from Ephesus,) wrote the Gospel of John and Revelations. All poor (and crazy) stuff. The Church seems to quote Paul's letters and John more than any other books.

Without Paul, 90% or more of all Churches would collapse. Their dogma would be destroyed.

 

[Penumbra]

Can you prove that to me please?

Paul's self-described encounter with the resurrected Jesus in a vision occurred on the road to Damascus.

Paul isn't listed as one of the 12 apostles in any of the canon Gospels.

If someone claims to have authority from God on any issue, it certainly seems like the burden of proof would be on them to prove they have authority.

Otherwise... I have authority. I speak for god. She came to me last night in a vision. (If there's anything you want to ask her, I'll let you know her answer.)

 

[Onkara]

Paul's self-described encounter with the resurrected Jesus in a vision occurred on the road to Damascus.

Paul isn't listed as one of the 12 apostles in any of the canon Gospels.

If someone claims to have authority from God on any issue, it certainly seems like the burden of proof would be on them to prove they have authority.

Otherwise... I have authority. I speak for god. she came to me last night. (If there's anything you want to ask her, I'll let you know her answer.)

Here is a verse they can use, albeit a bit weak:
Acts 22
12 “And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there, 13 came to me, and standing by me said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight.’ And at that very hour I received my sight and saw him. 14 And he said, ‘The God of our fathers appointed you to know his will, to see the Righteous One and to hear a voice from his mouth; 15 for you will be a witness for him to everyone of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

 

[dawny0826]

Where did Jesus define this union?

Marriage meant all sorts of things in the OT:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-religious-debates/140666-redefining-marriage.html

Many Christians disregard most of the OT. They don't fret about shellfish and mixed fabrics and picking up sticks on the Sabbath. Any laws from the OT are generally only cherry-picked, and many of the ones that are often put forth as still being relevant are ones that Paul mentioned in his letters.

See Matthew 19 and draw your own conclusions.

Many Christians do study from the OT as well. Never been to a Christian church where study from BOTH wasn't encouraged. I think we both agree that you can't blanket label.

You can disagree wth Paul, but, I don't understand why Paul's message is any more revelatory or ground shaking than Christ's own statement on marriage. I can't understand why there's any sort of issue with Christians quoting Paul or Christ, for that matter.

 

[oldbadger]

Where is your starting point for determining that Paul ever had any authority at all?

May I? His initial authority came with his (Roman?) instructions to suppress Jewish-christian groups. He reneged on that deal,which is probably why he was eventually arrested and taken to Rome. The Christian story of all this is vague and dodgy.

After that...... no..... he had no authority, until his agreement with James (Jesus's brother) and others to focus his activities upon the gentiles.

But I think that he was not really interested in Jesus, only the IDEAS of Jesus. Whatever served best got used.

 

[Sleeppy]

Where is your starting point for determining that Paul ever had any authority at all?

I, like you, am the starting point.. As far as illusion is concerned. However, illusion doesn't entirely negate truth. The very first starting point for authority is God. It gets to everything else by either chain or direct cause.

 

[Onkara]

Paul was at odds with the apostles. He was at odds with Jesus's brother. He was at odds with his prior employers because he reneged on his contract to suppress difficult Jewish-christian groups.

The majority of rules and laws that christians wave high.... came from Paul.

Paul's convert, John, (probably from Ephesus,) wrote the Gospel of John and Revelations. All poor (and crazy) stuff. The Church seems to quote Paul's letters and John more than any other books.

Without Paul, 90% or more of all Churches would collapse. Their dogma would be destroyed.

Hi!
Its amazing, I am reading the NT for the first time and it is opening my eyes to a lot. Previously I had no idea how much rests on Paul's writings.

Later, Paul asserts that everyone is loved by Jesus (and sentiments to that effect). In a way this goes against Paul's earlier letters and does not condemn anyone.

The hole debate is about sins not the person really, because we are all sinners. Penumbra might be better off addressing that angle.

 

[Penumbra]

Here is a verse they can use, albeit a bit weak:
Acts 22
12 “And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there, 13 came to me, and standing by me said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight.’ And at that very hour I received my sight and saw him. 14 And he said, ‘The God of our fathers appointed you to know his will, to see the Righteous One and to hear a voice from his mouth; 15 for you will be a witness for him to everyone of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

Paul is the one quoted as having said that.

That whole chunk in Acts 22 is Paul telling the story of himself. So that's Paul speaking for Ananias about himself (Paul).

And it's an unverified author of the text. So an unverified author of the text is quoting Paul quoting Ananias about Paul.

 

[Onkara]

Paul is the one quoted as having said that.

That whole chunk in Acts 22 is Paul telling the story of himself. So that's Paul speaking for Ananias about himself (Paul).

And it's an unverified author of the text. So an unverified author of the text is quoting Paul quoting Ananias about Paul.

Agreed, and all of this is what Christians base it on. They accept Paul's teaching as the Bible.

 

[Penumbra]

May I? His initial authority came with his (Roman?) instructions to suppress Jewish-christian groups. He reneged on that deal,which is probably why he was eventually arrested and taken to Rome. The Christian story of all this is vague and dodgy.

After that...... no..... he had no authority, until his agreement with James (Jesus's brother) and others to focus his activities upon the gentiles.

But I think that he was not really interested in Jesus, only the IDEAS of Jesus. Whatever served best got used.

This is true. His earthly authority was that he as in a position to persecute followers of Jesus until he had his religious experience, according to him.