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Do Concepts Exist Apart from Physical Processes in the Brain?

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
There's a great deal to be said for such an assumption. At worst, it turns out that one can't explain something in which case one is at least in the position to assert reasons for why this is so, and at best one is able to explain "everything". The one problem (as we've seen more from historical analyses of the sciences from those like Conant and particularly Kuhn) is that the more one's formulation of epistemic justification is made rigorous, the more one may find that the foundations are swept under one's feet (as in the case of Hilbert and some of the main goals of logical positivism or in physics). Marxist materialism rightly criticized the epistemology Hegel propounded (as this formalist approach was to come to a rather crashing halt thanks to Turing and Gödel while philosophers of science and logicians such as Quine, Putnam, Popper, etc.) tried to rebuilt a structure for empirical inquiry that did not depend upon the hopes that all of arithmetic (and by extension mathematics) could be axiomized and with it the then-queen of sciences become itself the logic of science. However, Marx's denial of formalism had its price too. He took for granted a notion so alien to human culture that it arose only once: the belief that a systematic investigation into the nature of the cosmos was both possible and desirable and could be (and should be) conducted within the appropriate framework. Before early modern "science" developed in Europe, the closest to science that humans ever came was probably among the Greeks, where the formal framework/logic was worked out there as nowhere else. However, it wasn't applied to the systematic study of natural phenomena.

The problem is that explanations of natural phenomena come to us naturally. We are predisposed to see cause where none exists and patterns where none are. It is primarily the formalism that Hegel (among others) espoused which allows empiricism to exist as a successful program. Yet Marx and Engels could no more realize this, given their historical contexts, than Hegel could anticipate the fall of logical positivism.

Nor could any foresee a different formalism now used as a basis for epistemic justification that is entirely compatible with the empiricism of Marx et al: game theory, Bayesian inference/reasoning (or subjective probability), non-classical logics, etc.

You know more about this subject than I do as I have only really been piecing together bits based off Wikipedia (with some really useful Marxists texts). I am familiar with Popper and Kuhn basic ideas, especially Popper's criticism of Marxism. Kuhn's ideas could almost have been Marxist in terms of 'paradigm shifts' or 'qualitative leaps' in human knowledge. It very welcome to see someone knows about Marx and is even complimentary about him and Engels. :)
Marxism is peculiar in the way it combines philosophy and science into an "ideology". Neither Marx nor Engels themselves were directly responsible for turning Marxism into a "worldview" which claimed scientific status, but Engels did imply this by approaching contemporary scientific theories in "dialectics of nature". This was something that happened (I think) as a result of Plekhanv (the 'father of Russian Marxism') and who knew and influenced Lenin. It was this that eventually led to the politicization of science in the USSR and the mistake of lysenkoism (which was chosen for purely political reason because it fitted the ideological preconception of Marxism better in the "class struggle" of ideas).
Making the ideas fit into this philosophical system comes at a high price from a conventional standpoint since in the 'small print' of Marxist philosophy, Marxism remains an 'ideology' and therefore claims to be in a state perpetual change with a heavy amount of relativism and uncertainty over the nature of truth- which is a considerable "loophole" if I'm being honest and dodges some major questions over it's reliability for predicting social development (as Popper rightly pointed out).
 

TRussert

New Member
Abstract MEANS non physical. Abstract is defined as 'existing as a thought or idea, but not having a concrete or physical existence.
Quite the fascinating conversation going on here! I hope no one objects to my posting in the middle of your exchanges. Your post on the definition of Abstract however compelled me to ask you to consider the idea that ALL experience, what we call objective and subjective, is in fact abstract.
The reason for considering this lies in both what we conceive of as our sensory biological process, and the very nature of the observation principle and entanglement in Quantum Mechanics.
First, our sensory processes. We relate to a seemingly physical experience through the five senses, yet upon further examination of what is actually occurring, we encounter a glaring contradiction. It is believed that when we "see" something, it is light reflecting off that something that enters our eyes and yields the image we are observing. It would seem then that it is physical light that determines the images our vision experiences. Yet, this light only "goes" as far as the retina via our rods and cones. These take that light and change it into an electro-chemical code specific to the image we are "seeing". That code is then sent along neural pathways to the part of the brain that processes visual stimuli. Only when that code reaches that part of the brain and is decoded, do we have any knowledge of a visual experience. The same process applies to our recognition's of "physical" experience via the other four senses.
The point is at no "time" are we ever in direct contact with physical experience, and must rely solely on a process of stimuli changed to code, which in turn must be decoded before we have any recognition of what physical experience is happening, and then, only happening in that "instant" of decoded recognition. Can things be more abstract than this? It's not the light reflecting off objects that we experience, but some process that "converts that light to a code we can decipher. Same for every other sensual stimuli. The smell of cinnamon in a s fresh baked apple pie results when our olfactory nerves detect molecules of cinnamon floating past our noses. But it's not those molecules that we have direct experience of, but rather what experience our sensory functions are "detecting" and converting to electro-chemical code. Only when that code is decoded in that part of the brain we assign olfactory function to do we discover that there's a fresh baked apple pie in our proximity. Tasting that pie must go through the same sensory process as all "objective" experience must go through. At no "time" however are we in direct contact with what we so effortlessly assume is an external physical reality. Based upon the only means we have to detect and recognize that reality however is as abstract as abstract can be. All our experience may not be objective at all, yet it is all 100% subjective; it all occurs in our cognitive awareness.
Otherwise there would not be concepts of sensory experience and the definitions of how it works to explain physical experience in the first place.
Now consider the Observation Principle. The perception of physical experience does not, nor cannot be experienced at any other time than in the present instant. Out of all the infinite probabilities for experience, specific experience only happens right now. What is not "right now" is what we call either memory or imagination, both of which are 100% subjective. The only "time" we can experience things we define as objective is in this present instant, an instant that may have no relationship to our concept of time.
All of what we define as physical, and which actually occupies so much of our experience and attention, is in reality subjective experience that can only exist right now. There is no objective experience therefore, only our concept of it and means to make it seem "real" through physical senses themselves totally subjective.
Anyway, like I said, I felt compelled to add my 2 cents worth to this thread. Cheers!
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
A concept is developed in the brain or mind..

Well which is it? The brain or the mind? You are making an assumption that they are the equivalent..

You can study 'the mind' or you can study 'the brain' .. two different subjects, though clearly connected.

You really shouldn't state assumptions as 'fact' without knowledge/proof
 

Excaljnur

Green String
Sure. I agree. I thought the topic was concepts - concepts are a product of mental experiences.
This was the 22 post. I wasn't sure what you were referring to by, "concepts are a product of mental experiences." And this term came from the post that you quoted and responded to in post #22.

I've been having some confusion as to operating definitions for Abstract and Concept because I think they are mistakenly being used interchangeably and to define themselves when they shouldn't.
 

Mateus T.

New Member
If god is an idea, not excluding the point that an idea could be an acess to god, but firstly an idea, and then conceptually evolving into a bridge to god (because we think conceptually and watches the process of nature as a concept in our minds) than an organic process (thinking) does not create a supernatural process (the idea of God), because an idea is not supernatural, but in a theist way a manner given to men by God for reaching Itself. If we call that supernatural, then the whole process of thinking is already supernatural, if so than we must say that everything that exists is supernatural, because the existence itself would be a miracle from God (or else we could consider that only thinking is a miracle given to God so he can know God, but that would ruin to whole point of having to make a decision to think in order to reach the knowledge of God), and that would be unfair to the problem in question, which is the idea of God is supernatural, in the standpoint of philosophical discussion of course, we are not talking about Buddhist realization for example.

Do concepts exists apart from physical processes in the brain? I dont know. I think concepts are a mental way of understand the process of nature, so they arent even the electrical synapsis in our brains, they are something else in the magnetic domain we call mind that can give us an inteligible shape that gives us the understanding of a physical process. A synapsis is electrical data circulating in our brain but the way we see and feel ideas are virtual. They can correlate to those organic impulses and sensations in the brain, but their virtuality is a domain in itself.


(Done i think)
 
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Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Quite the fascinating conversation going on here! I hope no one objects to my posting in the middle of your exchanges. Your post on the definition of Abstract however compelled me to ask you to consider the idea that ALL experience, what we call objective and subjective, is in fact abstract.
Sure, but the question of hard solipsism relates to all knowledge in all fields. We have to move past it to have any meaningful discussion. Otherwise any and all debates reduce to that same question.
The reason for considering this lies in both what we conceive of as our sensory biological process, and the very nature of the observation principle and entanglement in Quantum Mechanics.
First, our sensory processes. We relate to a seemingly physical experience through the five senses, yet upon further examination of what is actually occurring, we encounter a glaring contradiction. It is believed that when we "see" something, it is light reflecting off that something that enters our eyes and yields the image we are observing. It would seem then that it is physical light that determines the images our vision experiences. Yet, this light only "goes" as far as the retina via our rods and cones. These take that light and change it into an electro-chemical code specific to the image we are "seeing". That code is then sent along neural pathways to the part of the brain that processes visual stimuli. Only when that code reaches that part of the brain and is decoded, do we have any knowledge of a visual experience. The same process applies to our recognition's of "physical" experience via the other four senses.
The point is at no "time" are we ever in direct contact with physical experience, and must rely solely on a process of stimuli changed to code, which in turn must be decoded before we have any recognition of what physical experience is happening, and then, only happening in that "instant" of decoded recognition. Can things be more abstract than this? It's not the light reflecting off objects that we experience, but some process that "converts that light to a code we can decipher. Same for every other sensual stimuli. The smell of cinnamon in a s fresh baked apple pie results when our olfactory nerves detect molecules of cinnamon floating past our noses. But it's not those molecules that we have direct experience of, but rather what experience our sensory functions are "detecting" and converting to electro-chemical code. Only when that code is decoded in that part of the brain we assign olfactory function to do we discover that there's a fresh baked apple pie in our proximity. Tasting that pie must go through the same sensory process as all "objective" experience must go through. At no "time" however are we in direct contact with what we so effortlessly assume is an external physical reality. Based upon the only means we have to detect and recognize that reality however is as abstract as abstract can be. All our experience may not be objective at all, yet it is all 100% subjective; it all occurs in our cognitive awareness.
Otherwise there would not be concepts of sensory experience and the definitions of how it works to explain physical experience in the first place.
Now consider the Observation Principle. The perception of physical experience does not, nor cannot be experienced at any other time than in the present instant. Out of all the infinite probabilities for experience, specific experience only happens right now. What is not "right now" is what we call either memory or imagination, both of which are 100% subjective. The only "time" we can experience things we define as objective is in this present instant, an instant that may have no relationship to our concept of time.
All of what we define as physical, and which actually occupies so much of our experience and attention, is in reality subjective experience that can only exist right now. There is no objective experience therefore, only our concept of it and means to make it seem "real" through physical senses themselves totally subjective.
Anyway, like I said, I felt compelled to add my 2 cents worth to this thread. Cheers!
No worries, and thanks for contributing. As I said we need to move past hard solipsism, we have to assume that reality is real.
 

TRussert

New Member
Does the passage of time erase the past? If something doesn't exist right now, did it never exist? 'Tis a related question to consider.
Try considering that now is the ONLY "time" anything can appear to exist. What exists a moment ago is merely memory. What will exist a moment from now, right now is just imagination. It is only right now that anything can exist. Just saying.
Cheers
 

TRussert

New Member
Sure, but the question of hard solipsism relates to all knowledge in all fields. We have to move past it to have any meaningful discussion. Otherwise any and all debates reduce to that same question. No worries, and thanks for contributing. As I said we need to move past hard solipsism, we have to assume that reality is real.
If we have to "assume" that reality is "real", would not then a lucid dream be real? Experience, no matter how we chose to define and compartmentalize it, is always real. What isn't real is our insistence that experience has variations. Real versus unreal experience. Physical versus sentient experience. Why can they not both be the same?
Yes, reductio ad absurdum. Since this is a religious forum, I'm sure you are familiar with Hebrews 11:1-3. and Luke 17:20-21. It's not our physical senses that are the foundation of experience, but rather what is not physical. There are many other Scriptures that elude to this as well, In Genesis 1:26, God makes man in Our image. The Hebrew word for image means illusion as well as physical observation. None of this is solipsism, although I venture that to God, it might apply.
Anyway, thank you your consideration and response. Cheers!
 

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
Subjectively, from the standpoint of our conscious awareness of thinking, it is easy to see thoughts as disembodied concepts. That is, it is easy to see them as conceptual products of physical processes in the brain; conceptual products that are somehow and to some extent separate from those physical processes.

However, it seems to me that concepts do not exist apart from the physical processes that create them. If I have in my mind an image of a barn, it is because at the very moment I have that image, certain physical processes are creating it. It is not because certain physical processes created it a few moments ago and it is the lingering product of those processes. If the physical processes cease at any moment to function, my image of a barn comes to an abrupt end. The image does not linger as if it were the product of physical processes, for the image is entirely reducible to those processes. To posit that concepts exist to some extent separately or distinct from the processes that create them is to risk lending concepts a metaphysical or trans-physical status, although it might subjectively appear to us that they do exist separately.

Or, at least, that's how I see it.

Thoughts and comments?

I believe in the material basis of mind but I also believe that our thought begins in the cultures that we are born into rather than within our brains.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Try considering that now is the ONLY "time" anything can appear to exist. What exists a moment ago is merely memory. What will exist a moment from now, right now is just imagination. It is only right now that anything can exist. Just saying.
Cheers

:) yes .. Einstein is reported to have said that our concept of time is an illusion, albeit a convincing one!
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Subjectively, from the standpoint of our conscious awareness of thinking, it is easy to see thoughts as disembodied concepts. That is, it is easy to see them as conceptual products of physical processes in the brain; conceptual products that are somehow and to some extent separate from those physical processes.

However, it seems to me that concepts do not exist apart from the physical processes that create them. If I have in my mind an image of a barn, it is because at the very moment I have that image, certain physical processes are creating it. It is not because certain physical processes created it a few moments ago and it is the lingering product of those processes. If the physical processes cease at any moment to function, my image of a barn comes to an abrupt end. The image does not linger as if it were the product of physical processes, for the image is entirely reducible to those processes. To posit that concepts exist to some extent separately or distinct from the processes that create them is to risk lending concepts a metaphysical or trans-physical status, although it might subjectively appear to us that they do exist separately.

Or, at least, that's how I see it.

Thoughts and comments?

This is a very complex subject. It took me few days before i could formulate an opinion.

I believe the brain to be like a vehicle which is being controlled by the self in the same manner we use a car. Sometimes the self is in control when it grab the steering wheel in a professional manner and sometimes we lose control and our body becomes in charge for sometimes.

Since we are born, an attachment and a bond was created between the self and the body we are using. I know i know, i'm going into metaphysics now but it's related.

You have used images as an example. Please correct me if i misunderstood your point. These images are using physical eyes processed by our physical brain. The processes are handled by the brain and it all feed this self.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Try considering that now is the ONLY "time" anything can appear to exist. What exists a moment ago is merely memory. What will exist a moment from now, right now is just imagination. It is only right now that anything can exist. Just saying.
Cheers

I think that this way of defining existing is... very much not useful.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
If we have to "assume" that reality is "real", would not then a lucid dream be real?
No, I don't see why dreams would cease to be distinct from reality.
Experience, no matter how we chose to define and compartmentalize it, is always real. What isn't real is our insistence that experience has variations. Real versus unreal experience. Physical versus sentient experience. Why can they not both be the same?
Sorryl not sure what you are asking - can you clarify?
Yes, reductio ad absurdum. Since this is a religious forum, I'm sure you are familiar with Hebrews 11:1-3. and Luke 17:20-21. It's not our physical senses that are the foundation of experience, but rather what is not physical. There are many other Scriptures that elude to this as well, In Genesis 1:26, God makes man in Our image. The Hebrew word for image means illusion as well as physical observation. None of this is solipsism, although I venture that to God, it might apply.
Anyway, thank you your consideration and response. Cheers!
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
I've been having some confusion as to operating definitions for Abstract and Concept because I think they are mistakenly being used interchangeably and to define themselves when they shouldn't.

Yes, the semantics are important in a discussion like this.
 

Theodore A. Jones

Active Member
Subjectively, from the standpoint of our conscious awareness of thinking, it is easy to see thoughts as disembodied concepts. That is, it is easy to see them as conceptual products of physical processes in the brain; conceptual products that are somehow and to some extent separate from those physical processes.

However, it seems to me that concepts do not exist apart from the physical processes that create them. If I have in my mind an image of a barn, it is because at the very moment I have that image, certain physical processes are creating it. It is not because certain physical processes created it a few moments ago and it is the lingering product of those processes. If the physical processes cease at any moment to function, my image of a barn comes to an abrupt end. The image does not linger as if it were the product of physical processes, for the image is entirely reducible to those processes. To posit that concepts exist to some extent separately or distinct from the processes that create them is to risk lending concepts a metaphysical or trans-physical status, although it might subjectively appear to us that they do exist separately.

Or, at least, that's how I see it.



Thoughts and comments?

The course you took in critical thinking? Didn't pass it didya?
 

Bill Van Fleet

Active Member
Again, some may be interested in the (free) book that I have written about the mind-body problem. The following is the Introduction:

MIND-BODY PROBLEM: Introduction

INTRODUCTION



Throughout much of Western philosophical thought there has been an overt and/or underlying set of problems that have produced polarities of thinking, such as idealism vs. realism, but never to my knowledge any satisfactory conclusion. These problems have long been called "the "mind-body problem" and the "free will vs. determinism problem," or referred to in some similar manner. They are actually problems associated with some of our species' most difficult issues (involving major decision-making). I wish to solve these problems, and believe I have. See if you think I have.


The "mind-body problem" has to do with what the connection is between the two, including the issue as to how it can be that one may influence the other, especially when the physical sciences (physics, chemistry, biology, etc.), that have made great strides in understanding how the body (including the brain) works, use formulas that contain no variables having to do with the mind. And the "free will vs. determinism problem" has to do with how, if everything in the universe occurs according to causal laws, we are able to make decisions, when what we do was already bound to occur anyway.


I wish, however, to be somewhat more specific about the nature of these problems before giving you my solutions. And it will be crucial that, in order to have adequate understanding, we will need to use words with specific, agreed-upon meanings for the purpose of this discussion. (There is much misunderstanding related simply to individuals using the same words with different meanings.)


By "world" we will mean everything that exists, consisting of entities and their tendencies to interact. "Entity" will mean anything to which we can or could assign a name, or noun, such entities often being referred to as "things." The concept of "entity" will be discussed in greater detail later in this presentation.


(By "imaginary world" we can mean everything that exists only in imagination, referred to as "imaginary entities" or "imaginary things," and contrasted with what is often called the "real world." And we will recognize that there will be at times disagreement as to whether a certain particular entity is in the "world," or "real world," or in the "imaginary world," that is, whether it "exists" or "does not exist." Thus, we can say that some entities "exist" and some do not. This issue will become clearer as the presentation proceeds.)


Almost everyone agrees that the world (real world) exists, and that it contains entities we can sense, including stars, planets, gravity, light, dirt, water, air, plants, and animals, including humans, and also entities we can't sense, including molecules, atoms, electromagnetic force fields, electrons, neutrinos, quarks, gluons, etc. These entities are generally considered part of the "physical world," studied by the physical sciences.


But almost everyone also agrees that the world contains minds (especially, or maybe only, of humans), which in turn contain sensations, perceptions, concepts, thoughts, feelings, wishes, memories, fantasies, motivations, drives, aspirations, ideals, intentions, decisions, etc. These entities are generally considered part of the "mental world," studied by the psychological and social sciences. Three terms related to (but not necessarily identical with) "mind" are "consciousness" (or "conscious awareness"), "soul," and "spirit." All three are associated with some controversy, which I believe this presentation may resolve.


So the world, that which exists, is considered to be made up of "physical" entities and "mental" entities. We generally consider that there is a certain amount of interaction among some of these entities, in that some seem to influence others, such that we have developed the concept of "causation." Almost everyone considers that physical entities have causative influences on each other (heat causes chemical reactions to occur faster), and that mental entities also have causative influences on each other (certain thoughts or perceptions cause fear or anger), but the problem I am addressing has to do with whether physical and mental entities have any causative interaction with each other. Can something in the mindcause something in the physical world to happen, and/or vice versa, and, if so, how?


And there are additional aspects to the problem, having to do with the origins of the physical and mental world. From within science, the idea has arisen, with much evidence supporting it, that the physical world that we see around us came into being about 13.8 billion years ago, perhaps in something like a "big bang," and it has been operating since then according to a set of rules, or "natural laws." Somewhere along the line, however, this "lifeless" physical universe began to develop within it additional entities, opaque, invisible "minds," at least some of which have been attached in an unclear manner to entities within the physical world, these minds seeming to have some additional effect on the physical entities that goes beyond the rules according to which the physical entities had been interacting with each other. There have been other scenarios imagined, also, such as that the physical entities and the minds came into existence at about the same time. How, when, and why these minds came into existence has been a question that has never been answered to the satisfaction of everyone, or even the majority of people.


Of course, other scenarios have been imagined also. But again, no scenario has been imagined that seems believable by almost everyone, despite the fact that probably almost everyone, from ancient times until the present, has given it some thought.

So all of these issues are what this presentation is about. I hope to provide answers that anyone, who gives adequate consideration to the presentation, can accept. However, I know from what I went through in writing this that reading it superficially, so as to get a "general impression," will not accomplish any sense of confidence in what is written or feeling of good understanding of it. It will probably have to be read more than once, with some rereading of paragraphs during any one reading. Understanding of these issues will involve the development of new networks of enhanced neuronal connections in the brain, such development always being a gradual process that is accomplished through substantial repetition. That is what had to happen for me.
 
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