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Do creationists have anything new?

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You make a mistake in assuming that all who reject evolution are creationists. Creation science is an evangelical thing. I am not evangelical, nor do I subscribe o ll of their ideas, like a young earth.

Creationism and intelligent design are sometimes referred to as if they are different, but rational skeptics tend to group them all together, and distinguish them from naturalistic alternatives like abiogenesis and Darwimian evolution. The essential difference is between an intended outcome guided by an intelligent agent and a blind process.

Creationism / intelligent design involves a spectrum of ideas, all of which invoke a god, whether that be biblical literalism over six days, an ancient form of intelligent design, or more modern incarnations that allow for geologic time, but still have a god forging mankind. It matters little over what timeframe this is believed to have occurred.

But anyway, you act really smug, as if you and those who think like you, are so bored with proponents of creation.

I still find creationists interesting. They don't have much to offer about how the world works, but I enjoy deconstructing the apologetics. I enjoy looking at how faith based confirmation biases affect the way people view evidence, for example.

I enjoy it when a faith based thinker tells me my evidence is inadequate or my beliefs are preposterous.

Like you are all so intellectually superior. Well some of us are bored with the things evolutionists keep saying.

Our method, the application of reason to evidence and arriving at useful conclusions has been wildly successful productive. Faith has given us no useful knowledge about reality. If that counts as intellectual superiority, and I think it is the litmus test of it, then yes, we have a superior program at our disposal. So do you, but you seem to prefer faith.


There are good rebuttals for your arguments.

I haven't seen any. Rebuttals have to be good in the eye of he that is rebutted or they are ineffectual.

Virtually all creationist apologetics falls into a handful of categories, none of which produce good rebuttals. Most commonly, they are of the form of something that hasn't been observed yet or isn't understood yet makes evolution wrong, or perhaps some statistical sleight of hand like Hoyle's fallacy, or that the world is too complex to have arisen undirected (the creationist just can't envision it, so it didn't happen), or that naturalistic hypotheses require that something counterintuitive happened, often in a form like "nothing exploded into something and then rocks turned to polar bears, " or using the science you don’t mind against that which you do mind as with thermodynamic arguments.

Let's look at arguments that focus on what is not known yet, or what hasn't been found yet - so-called god of the gaps arguments, the fallacious implication being that if you can't explain A, B must be true: " we have no hard evidence that we have ever had a creature change genre." Science is based on what has been observed, accounting for it, unifying the observations, suggesting mechanisms, making testable predictions, and useful applications of the knowledge, not on what hasn't been or observed.

For example, we are commonly told by creationists that the hominin fossil record cannot show lineage. That would be immaterial. Why would we need to do that for the theory of evolution to be correct? Yes, it is very difficult to determine which hominins are our ancestors, and which diverged from our line of descent from a common ancestral ape to generate cousin species.

But the absence of that knowledge is not a weakness of the theory. What is important is what we DO have and know - something predicted by the theory and pretty inexplicable from a creationist standpoint. The theory predicts that we will find older forms that are less human looking, and later ones that are more manlike, which is what has been found. Those fossils have no business being there if there were divine creation but make perfect sense from an evolutionary standpoint
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Then of course there is the convenient little thing with evolution where the study of the origin of life is really not part of the study.

Macro evolutionists ALWAYS avoid the creation of life, even though their theory is rigidly linked to it. 90% or more of macro evolutionists accept it, and while giving lip service to isolating it, inherently MUST consider it the first step in their process, because they preclude any other possibility. the bifurcation of the two is required for the alleged integrity of evolution, because the critical first step, that most accept, scientifically, is a fairy tale.

So, hence the aspersions and avoidance of abiogenesis. Which is amusing, for without the first the second wouldn't exist. Now do I think I have "anything to offer " evolutionists. Well, if one can tear them away from their discipline, and compel them to look at theories of probability and chance, hard numbers about the production of mutations, they being sustained in a given population in time, and a variety of other very, very serious flaws in the theory related to probability, they might, just might, get an inkling of something being wrong. Of course, there is the application of logic, actually a process designed within the primary confines of theology, adopted by evolutionists, and of course, manipulated by them for their own purposes. You once again display one of the most common traits of macro evolutionists, the " I know more than you, thus, what you might say is beneath me" syndrome. Keep saying it if it makes you feel better. BUT, your saying it doesn't make it true.

You have an odd formulation of science and scientists. Abiogenesis, or chemical evolution, is the step between the evolution of the singularity to a planet full of elements, which requires the separation of the four forces and the emergence of the quarks and leptons, their cooling to form neutral hydrogen (and helium clouds), the formation of stars and the forging of the other elements, and the supernovae that enriched the nebula of what would become 2nd and 3rd order stars and their moons, planets, comets, and asteroids. That's material evolution. Abiogenesis starts there.

Next comes carbon, nitrogen, water etc. to the the first replicators, so-called chemical evolution. Do you also consider it a ruse that the people doing this work separate it from material evolution the way scientists separate the study of biological evolution from chemical (abiogenesis)?

Incidentally, biological evolution is not the final phase. Psychological evolution comes next as consciousness emerges.

With all due respect, there is a reason why we don't take our science from those trying to overturn it in defense of their faith. We have no interest in their agenda, and no confidence in its values or methods. We do things differently and toward an different end.

Nobody's listening to the creationists except other creationists. Why should they? Creationists have been voicing their objections since evolutionary theory appeared and have offered nothing except those objections and specious argumentation.
 

MrMrdevincamus

Voice Of The Martyrs Supporter
Very true. Another interesting part of how creationists simply repeat the same old arguments and talking points is that you have to wonder.....do the creationists truly think they're raising issues that no scientist has ever thought of before? I mean, are they expecting scientists to respond like "Gosh....we never thought of that before"?

Isn't it interesting how the scientific establishment ignored piltdown man was a fraud for six decades in some circles!. Piltdown was, to quote; "presented by the Keeper of Geology at the Natural History Museum of Britain, Arthur Smith Woodward, Piltdown man was “the missing link,” a creature whose features matched what many experts expected an early human to look like. He was a worldwide sensation, and as it turned out, a total fake.

"http://www.textbookhistory.com/what-piltdown-taught/


Lol science men who live in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks at us po' creationists.....Piltdown haunted college campuses until the early 70's, which is a 60 year long lie~
 

Riders

Well-Known Member
I've been (in various ways) interacting with creationists for over 20 years now. Part of doing that included reading up on the history of creationism and the people who advocate it, so I consider myself to be pretty well versed in creationism and the arguments its adherents put forth. But in looking over the threads here and the discussions therein, something stands out to me......while the creationists who show up and argue for creationism may change over time, the actual arguments they make don't. IOW, the cast changes, but script remains the same.

I've seen many of my fellow science defenders express frustration and/or boredom with how this all goes, where a set of creationists will show up, make a set of arguments, we counter them, and those creationists eventually leave only to be replaced by a new set of creationists who make the same arguments all over again.

Just today I see Guy T. argue that if something isn't experimentally reproduced, it's not science. I've been seeing that sort of ignorant argument from various creationists for years.

I see Deeje saying there are no transitional fossils and making claims about "kinds". Again, I'm sure most of us science defenders have heard that from creationists countless times.

The creationist argument that evolutionary theory is facing "imminent demise" is ridiculed as "the longest running falsehood in creationism", because it can be traced back to 1825! Yet creationists still repeat it today (e.g., the "Dissent from Darwin" list).

For the creationists, I have to ask a couple of things. First, do you even realize that these tired old arguments and talking points have had absolutely zero impact on science? Creationists have been making claims about transitional fossils for over a century, and what impact have they had on paleontology? None. So what exactly do you think will change by repeating them yet again?

Finally.....do you have any new arguments? As noted above, none of your old arguments have impacted science in any way at all, so do you keep repeating them simply because you have nothing else?



I know a few times one I remember where they published a book on creationism saying they had proof beyond proof that creationism has all the answers for our existence. Students who were Christian college students were buying it.


I also know they also claim there are footprints where you see people foot prints next to dinosaur footprints and sense people existed with dinosaurs it proves the timing evolutionists use are false and the ancient humans evolutionists use are wrong.

Yall argue that one? You ever argue about any creationist books with them? Just curious.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Here are indisputable facts, it is totally unproven by overwhelming, or even significant evidence that macro evolution ever took place, and it certainly is the same for that enigma, wrapped in a mystery, encased in a conumdrum, abiogenesis. So, do you even realize that these tired old arguments and talking points have had zero impact on those who see no reason to accept as fact, ideas that are linked together by ropes of sand , speculation, it must be, ignore that, we are superior ?

No scientific theory needs to be proven. Nor does it need to be proven that "macroevolution" (or abiogenesis) occurred. The ideas merely need to be consistent with observations and account for them better than alternative hypotheses, make predictions that are confirmed, and when applied, lead to desirable outcomes.

Arguments and evidence will never have impact on creationists. That's not how they come to their position, and they cannot budge them from it. A creationist offering his inability to be convinced has no persuasive power.

Here's an idea you might have seen before: I don't require you to think what I think to take you seriously and discuss our differences, but I do need you to process information the way I do. If you use faith to make decisions, your opinions cannot be useful to me.

This does not mean that a faith based thinker can't do good and useful work, but it does mean that if he does it differently from a purely reason and evidence based thinker, it won't be good work. A person of faith can add numbers correctly and according to the rules of reason, but must not use a step not grounded in reason if he hopes to arrive at a correct answer. That is, he can add accurately, but only insofar as his faith doesn’t inform his mathematics. If he chooses to take a leap of faith not supported by the rules of arithmetic, what happens? He goes astray precisely at that moment and cannot recover..

Newton is a great illustration as well. Living on the cusp of modernity as he did, Newton had a foot in both worlds - reason and faith based superstitions. He explored mathematics and physics as well as astrology. The math and physics included the invention of calculus as well as the first mathematical science, celestial mechanics, were generated without faith based ideas injected into them.

That is why they worked, why we still admire Newton, why people with no faith based ideas such as skeptical scientists can still understand them to confirm that they are accurate, and are still useful today. He compartmentalized his faith and didn't let it bleed into the process.

Newton also wrote on astrology, which was faith based, was sterile, was unsubstantiated by any evidence, unified no observations, made no valid predictions, and is ignored today.

What is remarkable is that Newton used both modes of thought. What is not remarkable is that he was fruitful and the other sterile.

We see this pattern time and again. It defines the history of faith based enterprises like astrology and religion, which are uniformly sterile, and reason and evidence based enterprises like science, which has been stunningly successful.

What else does a person need to know to say that he is not interested in any thinking contaminated by faith based thought? Many faith based thinkers are offended by this exclusion, but it is reasonable and appropriate.

Now please tell me why I should respect the creationist objections to science.

Incidentally, there is no known barrier preventing the smaller changes that you call microevolution from accruing over greater periods times to the larger scale changes that you call macroevolution. And if macroevolution includes speciation - creationsts tend to be vague and elusive in their definitions and usage of these terms - then it has been observed.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No not at all. My statement was an unfortunate choice of words. In attempting to differentiate you and other modest atheists from the more aggressive types I sounded as if I were labeling you, please accept my apology?
: {>

Sorry. The "abrasive atheist" and "whining" language struck me as passive-aggressive, and I modified my posting style to you accordingly. All is forgiven and forgotten.

I reject the molecule to man part of the theory.
: {>

That's pretty much all of abiogenesis and evolution. So what part of evolution do you find valid? I believe that you said most of it.

Are you 100% opposed to any type of evolution occurring not following the current scientific claims?: {>

No, not even 1%. I'm sure that some current claims will require tweaking, and some great breakthroughs may be in the offing.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
God bless you (I couldn't help myself) well I really mean it too... I will answer your well thought out reply as soon as possible, my health demons and conspiring against my body just about now.
; {>

Sorry about your health. And God bless you (I couldn't help it, either) in the sincerest sense that an unbeliever can mean it.
 

MrMrdevincamus

Voice Of The Martyrs Supporter
Thanks for the kind words 'IANT' (your name abbv). I am happy that we may be able to discuss the issues in a civil and intelligent manner. You and I seem to have similar personalities, giving tit for tat even though my religion tells we Christians
to be pacifists and to forgive all transgressions! Really compared to my prior christian self I am almost God like now lol! So, I look forward to future debate with you ~
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Hello @Jose Fly - when you say "creationist" could you specify what type or types you mean? Are you talking exclusively of those who follow the tales of the Bible? Perhaps specifically the tales of Biblical literalists or those who are mythological literalists? If so, talking to people outside of the Abrahamic religions and the mythological literalists might give you something different to think about.

By "creationist", I mean those who deny evolution and instead advocate for some form of supernatural causation.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Isn't it interesting how the scientific establishment ignored piltdown man was a fraud for six decades in some circles!. Piltdown was, to quote; "presented by the Keeper of Geology at the Natural History Museum of Britain, Arthur Smith Woodward, Piltdown man was “the missing link,” a creature whose features matched what many experts expected an early human to look like. He was a worldwide sensation, and as it turned out, a total fake.

"http://www.textbookhistory.com/what-piltdown-taught/


Lol science men who live in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks at us po' creationists.....Piltdown haunted college campuses until the early 70's, which is a 60 year long lie~

I've never understood the creationist fascination with Piltdown Man. It was a deliberate fraud that took decades to expose, therefore.............what?
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
I know a few times one I remember where they published a book on creationism saying they had proof beyond proof that creationism has all the answers for our existence. Students who were Christian college students were buying it.


I also know they also claim there are footprints where you see people foot prints next to dinosaur footprints and sense people existed with dinosaurs it proves the timing evolutionists use are false and the ancient humans evolutionists use are wrong.

Yall argue that one? You ever argue about any creationist books with them? Just curious.

Not sure what book you're referring to, but the human/dino tracks thing has been done to death. Yet it's not unusual to still see creationists bringing it up.
 

Repox

Truth Seeker
Evolutionist can't explain how something (universe) came from nothing. That is the enduring argument evolutionists cannot refuted.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Evolutionist can't explain how something (universe) came from nothing. That is the enduring argument evolutionists cannot refuted.

And as if to demonstrate my point for me, Repox comes along and repeats a tired, old, and fundamentally ignorant creationist talking point. Just a hint.....evolutionary theory is about how life evolves over time, not the origin of the universe.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Evolutionist can't explain how something (universe) came from nothing. That is the enduring argument evolutionists cannot refuted.
So, do you think zoologists should explain how the universe came from nothing? How about electricians? Or maybe day care workers? Point being, the origins of the universe and life are not subjects evolution address or even care about. That it does or should is no more than one of creationism's old ploys to disparage evolution, which those who are ignorant of the scope evolution and don't care to verify, pick up and run with. FORGET IT! If you need to make your case for creationism by attacking evolution then do your homework and find out what evolution is actually about.


.
 

arthra

Baha'i
do you have any new arguments?

Early in the twentieth century Abdul-Baha the oldest Son of Baha'u'llah was asked some questions about creation and science at the time and He responded and His responses were translated into English in a book entitled "Some Answered Questions" this book has been in print for almost a hundred years and was recently revised as to a few words in the English translation..But let me state a few principles that Baha'is accept before I share what was more specifically stated about "creation"; "evolution"; etc.

The principle held by Baha'is is that science and religion should be in harmony.. As we are all aware there has been a struggle in European circles between science and religion.. a separation for sure and an antagonism between them. So the following are a translation of the words of Abdul-Baha on the issue between science and religion:

"Religion and Science are inter-twined with each other and cannot be separated. These are the two wings with which humanity must fly. 29 One wing is not enough. Every religion which does not concern itself with Science is mere tradition, and that is not the essential. Therefore science, education and civilization are most important necessities for the full religious life."
"The search for truth man must weigh religious questions in the balance of science and reason."

I have to leave this for now and will continue to the gist of the issue of creation and such later this evening...

Alright so returning... there are in my view three aspects of the process in the Baha'i Writings...

We acknowledge "creation" as an ongoing process;

"All originated from God and returneth unto Him: verily He is the Source of creation and the Goal of the worlds." (Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveller's Narrative, p. 83)

What is the nature of the connection between God and the creature -- that is to say, between the Independent, the Most High, and the other beings?

Answer. -- The connection between God and the creatures is that of the creator to the creation; it is like the connection between the sun and the dark bodies of contingent beings, and is the connection between the maker and the things that he has made. The sun in its own essence is independent of the bodies which it lights, for its light is in itself and is free and independent of the terrestrial globe; so the earth is under the influence of the sun and receives its light, whereas the sun and its rays are entirely independent of the earth. But if there were no sun, the earth and all earthly beings could not exist. The dependence of the creatures upon God is a dependence of emanation -- that is to say, creatures emanate from God; they do not manifest Him.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 202)

The universe has no beginning or end:

"...it is certain that this world of existence, this endless universe, has neither beginning nor end. Yes, it may be that one of the parts of the universe, one of the globes, for example, may come into existence, or may be disintegrated, but the other endless globes are still existing; the universe would not be disordered nor destroyed."

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 180)

Evolution is also part of the process:

"....as man in the womb of the mother passes from form to form, from shape to shape, changes and develops, and is still the human species from the beginning of the embryonic period -- in the same way man, from the beginning of his existence in the matrix of the world, is also a distinct species -- that is, man -- and has gradually evolved from one form to another..."

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 192)

Finally and in closing there's an excellent article on wikipedia on the subject:

Bahá'í Faith and science - Wikipedia








 
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Riders

Well-Known Member
Early in the twentieth century Abdul-Baha the oldest Son of Baha'u'llah was asked some questions about creation and science at the time and He responded and His responses were translated into English in a book entitled "Some Answered Questions" this book has been in print for almost a hundred years and was recently revised as to a few words in the English translation..But let me state a few principles that Baha'is accept before I share what was more specifically stated about "creation"; "evolution"; etc.

The principle held by Baha'is is that science and religion should be in harmony.. As we are all aware there has been a struggle in European circles between science and religion.. a separation for sure and an antagonism between them. So the following are a translation of the words of Abdul-Baha on the issue between science and religion:

"Religion and Science are inter-twined with each other and cannot be separated. These are the two wings with which humanity must fly. 29 One wing is not enough. Every religion which does not concern itself with Science is mere tradition, and that is not the essential. Therefore science, education and civilization are most important necessities for the full religious life."
"The search for truth man must weigh religious questions in the balance of science and reason."

I have to leave this for now and will continue to the gist of the issue of creation and such later this evening...



Ok I'm kind of confused are you saying you are a creationist? Its confusing to me because it seems that most Creationists here are Christians who like to use their proof as proof for their religion to convert people with too.Guess there are other religions who are creationsist just not use to reading their post.Thanks for the post I always think your posts are interesting.
 

Repox

Truth Seeker
So, do you think zoologists should explain how the universe came from nothing? How about electricians? Or maybe day care workers? Point being, the origins of the universe and life are not subjects evolution address or even care about. That it does or should is no more than one of creationism's old ploys to disparage evolution, which those who are ignorant of the scope evolution and don't care to verify, pick up and run with. FORGET IT! If you need to make your case for creationism by attacking evolution then do your homework and find out what evolution is actually about.


.
So, do you think zoologists should explain how the universe came from nothing? How about electricians? Or maybe day care workers? Point being, the origins of the universe and life are not subjects evolution address or even care about. That it does or should is no more than one of creationism's old ploys to disparage evolution, which those who are ignorant of the scope evolution and don't care to verify, pick up and run with. FORGET IT! If you need to make your case for creationism by attacking evolution then do your homework and find out what evolution is actually about.


.
I don't need a lecture from a rude poster. I am not attacking evolutionists. The "something from nothing" argument always comes up with the "who or what" did it question. There are those who believe God is the total explanation and those who believe there is no God, and therefore science is the explanation. There is a middle ground. We can combine both perspectives. Evolution explains how God did it. Science allows us to marvel at God's creation. Everything in the universe has evolved according to God's plan or design.

We have a better understanding of the universe if we know God's original purpose for its design. I propose God created the universe as a prison for Satan, HIs rebellious angel.
 
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Repox

Truth Seeker
And as if to demonstrate my point for me, Repox comes along and repeats a tired, old, and fundamentally ignorant creationist talking point. Just a hint.....evolutionary theory is about how life evolves over time, not the origin of the universe.
I stand corrected. I have a different perspective. I propose a reason for the universe, it may explain reasons for its design and therefore provide insight into the fate of the universe. I propose God created the universe as a prison for Satan. The universe would therefore reflect that purpose, such as a preponderance of dark matter and energy.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
Yes all the time ... the recent movie 'is Genesis History' was chock full of it
I thought it interesting that dinosaur tracks appear in the fossil record and then 'millions of so called geological years of layers later the dinosaur bodies appear... pretty odd :)

in the end the sin of man affects the whole world and nature
Screen Shot 2017-03-04 at 12.39.59 AM.png
see ---> Hosea and his family, a portrait of grace
 
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