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Do God the Father and God the Son have physical bodies?

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Scott, how many members of the LDS Church believe this? Such a belief is, without a doubt, a final departure from Christianity.
I'd say most of the adult members of the Church who are familiar with the doctrine probably believe it. With more than two-thirds of our membership being first-generation converts, and since this concept is definitely not a "core doctrine" of the Church (i.e. something that is essential to one's salvation), it's also fairly likely that many newer members of the Church have never heard it taught before. Unlike the Atonement of Jesus Christ, for instance, it's not something we focus on.

I think the fact that we see God from a "multiverse" rather than a "universe" perspective explains how we can believe both what the Bible has to say about God as well as what God may have been doing prior to the events described in the Bible. We believe (and this is LDS doctrine) that God has created "worlds without number." We were not His first creations and were probably not His last. The Bible is an account of His dealings with His children here on Earth. Everything it says about Him or about our relationship to Him has to be understood from that perspective. In other words, the Bible describes him as being eternal and unchanging. Within the framework of our universe, this is the case. Within the framework of multiple universes created completely independently of ours, we don't know. The Bible is silent on the subject, but latter-day revelation to God's prophets addresses this topic to a limited extent.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
This Mormon site seems to think he was'nt much worth listening to, hind sight is 20/20.
No Salvation Without Joseph Smith | Mormonism Research Ministry

Scott is now sharing what Smith has to say about God the FAther.
Roli, could I ask you something? What is it you would like to accomplish by having this discussion? We have patiently addressed every single criticism you've leveled against the Church and its leaders. I personally have explained how a teaching becomes doctrine. I know I explained it adequately, so you can't possibly be pleading ignorance at this point. I really have no other choice but to believe that you are intentionally ignoring all of our past posts and have absolutely no desire whatsoever to understand our position. Is you own position really so weak that the only way you can make yourself look good is to try to make us look bad?

What would you like to know about what the word has to say about God's eternal existence, that is if you take eternal literally !!!
Answer this Katz," Was God the Father once flesh and blood as we are?
Give reference if you could!!
I believe Scott has done a more than adequate job of answering this question, roli. I see no point in simply repeating what he has already said.
 

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
Roli, your posting a link to an anti-Mormon website is not the way to invite continued thoughtful dialog on what I believe. I had hoped we would pursue a higher course.
I will refrain from quoting from this site and others and will come at this from my own beliefs.
Scott ,you claim this to be an anti mormon site and not specify it to be christian.
I hold to the same beliefs according to their doctrinal statement, so I guess we are anti mormons and not christians in your eyes.
If this is the case, why do you associate with us, "Christians" or should I say, proponents to anti Mormonism, yet reject the views of this site, they are the same.
 

Scott C.

Just one guy
I will refrain from quoting from this site and others and will come at this from my own beliefs.
Scott ,you claim this to be an anti mormon site and not specify it to be christian.
I hold to the same beliefs according to their doctrinal statement, so I guess we are anti mormons and not christians in your eyes.
If this is the case, why do you associate with us, "Christians" or should I say, proponents to anti Mormonism, yet reject the views of this site, they are the same.

I do so because I respect many Christians and many Christian churches. I don't respect those that behave in a manner that I consider to be anti-Mormon. I'm not accusing you of being an anti-Mormon (unless that's a title you want).

The website presents a twisted view of LDS doctrine. A person who is both honest and well informed on what we beileve would not create such a site. I have to conclude that the authors are either dishonest (not a Christian attribute) or they are sincere, but not well informed Christians.
 

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
...

In 2007 the LDS Church published a book called Teachings of Presidents of the Church – Joseph Smith. The church has asked its congregations throughout the world to study from this manual each Sunday during classroom time. The LDS Church pays much attention to the teachings of Joseph Smith and respects him as a great prophet of God.

Chapter 2 is called God the Eternal Father. Here are some quotes from Joseph Smith which are included in this chapter:

“While one portion of the human race is judging and condemning the other without mercy, the great Parent of the universe looks upon the whole of the human family with a fatherly care and paternal regard; he views them as His offspring, and without any of those contracted feelings that influence the children of men, causes ‘His son to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.’ [Matthew 5:45]

"
"he views them as His offspring",
Do you actually believe we are all his children prior to the cross and that God truly views us in our sinful state as heirs of the kingdom,or children, because that is what a child inherits.
According to these verse we are separated from God, not reconciled or joint heirs or children, but enemies.
Eph 2:12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world,
according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience
Eph 2:5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Isa 59:2 — But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid [his] face from you, that he will not hear
Rom 5:10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Col 1:21 — And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Eph 2:1And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Here is the qualifier to be a son or child according to Jesus:
Jhn 1:12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

By the way, the word "son"you use in Matt 5;45 is the word "sun"
How does this word change support LDS doctrine, because to change that word to "Son" as in Christ Jesus, makes a difference, I am just not sure how LDS interpret this.

“We admit that God is the great source and fountain from which proceeds all good; that He is the perfect intelligence, and that His wisdom is alone sufficient to govern and regulate the mighty creations and worlds which shine and blaze with such magnificence and splendor over our heads, as though touched with His finger and moved by His Almighty word…..The heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament showeth his handiwork [see Psalm 19:1]; and a moment’s reflection is sufficient to teach man of common intelligence, that all these are not the mere productions of chance, nor could they be supported by any power less than an Almighty hand.”

Sounds good!

“God Himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make Himself visible, -I say, if you were to see Him today, you would see Him like a man in form- like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another.”

Can you support this belief, because these verses paint a different picture:
Jhn 1:12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Do you see the distinction between the flesh and the father, both John in John1:12 is making and Jesus in Matt16:17.


Everything a prophet says can’t be taken as scripture. While these quotes are not in our canon of scripture, personally I believe them to all be true.
So I guess that is up to the President and apostles.


The way I personally interpret this, somewhere in an eternity past, God progressed to become what He is now, which is omnipotent and omniscient, the God of eternity, the everlasting to everlasting God, who is without beginning and without end. I believe God to possess every power and ability and infallibility as perceived by the Christian world. God’s physical nature, form of a man, and previous progression in an eternity past does not detract from any of this.
That then makes him like you and you therfore can become like him based on that?

For me, to know that I am literally in God’s image and to know that when I die I will see God as He is, and see that His form is my form, and He will embrace me in His arms as His literal child and offspring is unspeakably wonderful. “I am a child of God” is in my opinion the most sublime and important truth that was restored to the world through the Prophet Joseph Smith. I can’t understand everything this implies and there are great mysteries associated with all of this. But, I believe God wants us to know this much with certainty: “We are children of God
If this is the case why are not all his words taken as doctrine.
I am curious to know how many LDS hold to the same view
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
but honestly, don't all these teachings, presumptions, ideas, theories, and rarely-discussed possibilities just complicate things unnecesarily?
Clearly, it's more complicated than "You're born, you become a Christian, you die, and you go to Heaven." What you see as complicated, we see as intricately beautiful. LDS doctrine is only complicated when it is approached with the idea in mind that we don't need to know anything outside of what the Bible teaches. Well, the fact is, the Bible leaves many, many questions unanswered. It would be one thing if we were just filling in the missing pieces of the puzzle with doctrines that we found appealing. That's not the case, though. The doctrines that have been restored to the earth were, for the most part, known, understood and believed by the earliest Christians.

there's so much, it seems, in Mormon theology that is admitted as defining doctrine (that which makes Mormonism distinct from and perhaps truer than all other Christian groups), yet is rarely discussed, and rarely elaborated on.
That's probably true, but why speculate on something that you can only guess at, when there is so much to learn of what has actually be revealed.

for examle, the concept of Heavenly Mother. the exact dimentions and levels of the celestial kingdom, and who is going where once that kingdom is reached. the origins and eventual discontinuation of polygamy within Mormonism. this idea apparently speculated on by Joseph Smith that God is in some way a man like ourselves who is created... so much is there, present, yet even LDS here report than when some of these issues are mentioned in their churches, the topic is quickly changed on the basis of its being a mystery, and perhaps not knowable in this life.
Again, the topic is only changed when there is nothing more to say.

if all of these things are cosmologicaly true, and neccesary to LDS belief, and if Smith began his minitry based on the Bible's promise that all who lack wisdom should ask God, why does a lot of the specific wisdom of the LDS church seem to lack clarity and definition?
We believe that God teaches us "line upon line, precept upon precept." To me, the knowledge that God has given us on His Plan of Salvation, beginning with our pre-mortal existence and culiminating with the promise of eternal progression is such a blessing. It's one of the things I like best about my religion.
 
Yes, I would very much like to see the answer to this question. Did the Father always have his body? Is matter co-eternal with spirit?

Do and/or did LDS believe that the Father was created? Technically, they believe that God and man both existed as eternal matter which had to be organized, not created, into what it is now.

"The spirit of man is not a created being; it existed from eternity, and will exist to eternity."
- Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 158

Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be, (Doctrine and Covenants 93:29)

Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them. (Doctrine and Covenants 132:20)
 

Scott C.

Just one guy
Do you actually believe we are all his children prior to the cross and that God truly views us in our sinful state as heirs of the kingdom,or children, because that is what a child inherits.
According to these verse we are separated from God, not reconciled or joint heirs or children, but enemies.

I believe we are all the offspring of God the Father. We were his offspring when we existed with God before He created the world.

When we accept the gospel covenant in this life and are born again, Jesus Christ becomes our adopted Father or the Father of our salvation. Only those who have been born again as the children of Christ become heirs of God's promises.

So the fact that we are the offspring of the Eternal Father does not guarantee salvation.
 

Watchmen

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
ἀλήθεια;1391260 said:
What other answer could an LDS give? Nothing was "created."

LDS Pearl of Great Price, Book of Abraham, Chapter 4
1 And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth.

Then why'd you ask the question if you already knew the answer?
 

edward

Member
I believe we are all the offspring of God the Father. We were his offspring when we existed with God before He created the world. ...

How can you claim to have existed with God prior to the creation when the Bible clearly states that the physical body preceeds the spiritual?

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual." I Cornthians 15:44-46

Edward
 

edward

Member
Then why'd you ask the question if you already knew the answer?

Looks to me to be part of a response, not asking the public a question, per se, but clarifying the topic being addressed.

What do you think? Does that make sense.

O'Reily on Fox uses that method of oral communication quite frequently.

Edward
 
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Scott C.

Just one guy
How can you claim to have existed with God prior to the creation when the Bible clearly states that the physical body preceeds the spiritual?

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual." I Cornthians 15:44-46

Edward

This scripture is referring to the resurerction from the dead. Paul is referring to the resurrected body as a "spiritual body". He also differentiates between the mortal body and resurrected body in verse 42, when he says the body will be raised in "incorruption".

When Jesus appeared to the disciples after the resurrection, he said he had flesh and bone. This resurrected body is what Paul refers to as "raised in incorruption" or "raised a spiritual body". If we believe the language "raised a spiritual body" means the resurrection is not actually physical, that contradicts the physical resurrection of Christ.

I believe we existed as spirit beings first, then we came to earth where we were clothed with a physical and corruptible or natural (mortal) body. In the resurrection we will be clothed with a physical and incorruptible (immortal) body which Paul calls a "spiritual body".

I'm not sure if you believe that we will be resurrected with physical bodies. Do you? I'm also not sure if you believe that right now we have a "spirit" which is clothed in flesh. Do you?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
ἀλήθεια;1391260 said:
What other answer could an LDS give? Nothing was "created."
What's your problem? If you're just going to come back with a sarcastic comment, you can't very well expect any of us to even keep answering your questions. I can only conclude that you just want to be argumentative.
 

ayani

member
Katz ~

can i ask a qestion? how does the CoJCoLDS view salvation? how is one saved / brought into God's family?
 
Then why'd you ask the question if you already knew the answer?

You would be so much better off if you read sentences in context! See:

ἀλήθεια;1391196 said:
Do and/or did LDS believe that the Father was created? Technically, they believe that God and man both existed as eternal matter which had to be organized, not created, into what it is now.
 
What's your problem? If you're just going to come back with a sarcastic comment, you can't very well expect any of us to even keep answering your questions. I can only conclude that you just want to be argumentative.

I can only conclude that you didn't read my entire post in the first place. I had not asked you any question. Example:

How can an idividual discuss a topic if no topic has been brought up? He can start a thread on that topic.

Now are you going to answer the question I already answered?
 

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
Chapter 2 is called God the Eternal Father. Here are some quotes from Joseph Smith which are included in this chapter:

“ he views them as His offspring, and without any of those contracted feelings that influence the children of men, causes ‘His son to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.’ [Matthew 5:45]

Although God is patient and not willing that any perish, he is angry at man's wickedness and it's depicted throughout scripture, Rom 1 Paul expresses that wrath he has towards men.
I'd use scripture to support it ,but I really don't think it matters eitehr way, as the bible is only true if it is translated properly, that sure leaves room for JSmith's writings to be esteemed more than that of scripture.
It really does'nt matter what Joseph Smith says, in my opinion,it's the gospel contained in the bible, including the writings of the apostles and epistles that trump Jospeh Smith's and any other man's writings and sayings.
I have shared before about the state we were in before God found us:
How do you explain these verses describing the state of man.
Jesus says "he came to seek and save that which was lost
Ephesians 2:3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
Romans 9:8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.
Eph 2:12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world,
according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience
Eph 2:5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Isa 59:2 — But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid [his] face from you, that he will not hear
Rom 5:10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Col 1:21 — And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Eph 2:1And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins

I notice you don't respond to many of my questions, it makes me wonder why?
Please help me to understand, as I have asked before, why Jospeh uses the word "son" in Matt 5:45 when the word is actually"sun".in scripture.
This must support some other doctrine of LDS, although it's only a word, it's meaning is entirely different


“God Himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret.
Please explain what is meant here ? God was once as we are now, what sinful, wicked,flesh and blood, carnal, finite and now he is an exalted "man".
So what I hear is that God was once like us and all that he is now is what we wil become , so in essence ,we can become gods.


If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make Himself visible, -I say, if you were to see Him today, you would see Him like a man in form- like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man;
What veil, could you explain how you know this information?


for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another.”
How do you conclude this to mean, physical image and not spiritual, I mean he did breathe his spirit into man and they became a living soul, but that in no way indicates physical likeness.

Everything a prophet says can’t be taken as scripture. While these quotes are not in our canon of scripture, personally I believe them to all be true.
How do you know where to draw the line, or what is from God and what is not from God.


The way I personally interpret this, somewhere in an eternity past, God progressed to become what He is now,
Is this a consensus among most LDS and what does progression look like.
progression to me means indicates he was less then what he is now, at least at some point, could you explain.

which is omnipotent and omniscient, the God of eternity, the everlasting to everlasting God, who is without beginning and without end.
This part of your statement appears to contradict the latter. How can he be like us at one point ,progress from there to his present eternal status, without being at one point less than what he is now. Thererfore he was not always omnipotent,omniscient or omni present

I believe God to possess every power and ability and infallibility as perceived by the Christian world. God’s physical nature, form of a man, and previous progression in an eternity past does not detract from any of this.
I'm sorry, but making God as one of us, in physical form can't but not make him less then what he claims he is, therfore detracting from the truth in a serious way.

For me, to know that I am literally in God’s image and to know that when I die I will see God as He is, and see that His form is my form, and He will embrace me in His arms as His literal child and offspring is unspeakably wonderful. “I am a child of God” is in my opinion the most sublime and important truth that was restored to the world through the Prophet Joseph Smith.
Does it alarm you that this is not found in sound doctrine, but then again ,what is sound doctrine in your view.
 

zomg

I aim to misbehave!
roli, I believe the "son" in the verse you are talking about to be a typo on the poster's part.
The verse does read "sun" :)
 
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