Do Members of Jehovah's Witness Celebrate the US Independence Day?

[Hockeycowboy]

Many leave because, through their private Biblical research, they have discovered that many things the JWs teach are not true.

Which teachings?

Others leave because the religion no longer fulfills their spiritual needs.

Please! Lol.
Where else do they go?

Others, like myself, leave because they can no longer stomach the hypocrisy, backbiting, lack of love, lies and general nastiness inherent in the group.

Wow! You’d have had a hard time living in ancient Israel, during those times when just about the entire nation had left Jehovah!

But guess what? They were still Jehovah’s people. No other group was!

Yeah, Jehovah’s organization is filled with imperfect people. And we all go through tests, the Devil makes sure of that....some keep loyal to Jehovah and endure, and some don’t.

But the majority who leave, are disfellowshipped for practicing, ie., unrepentant, sexual immorality.

Few ever admit it.

 

[John53]

You tell us, since it’s not true.

I have several close friends who are JW’s — two of them, elders — who have beards.

Your lies just destroyed your credibility.

A quick search of the internet shows that it is in fact not a lie, they may not be officially banned but they are strongly discouraged. This page has a lot of information https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/beards-jehovahs-witnesses.php including a letter written to the watchtower by a JW asking why he couldn't have a beard and the WT response.

I found this:
“There is a wide range of classical music, as well as folk and some modern music, that has a good melodic line, clean lyrics, and does not express a philosophy contrary to Bible principles. The key is to find and enjoy music that will not wrongly influence our thinking, music that is ‘righteous, chaste, well spoken of, virtuous, and praiseworthy.’—Philippians 4:8.”
(Excerpt from https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1989408?q=classical+music&p=par)

“A wide range of classical music” is fine, it said.

So....another lie.

The issue of music seems to be very confusing, about the only recommendation I can find is music that pleases Jehovah and it leaves the individual to decide what that is. So you can not know how that was interpreted. How on earth you can decide if instrumental music "will wrongly influence your thinking" is beyond me.

Oh, this explains the bias and the lies.
What made you become a traitor to Jehovah? Or were you even dedicated?

The way you treat people who don't agree with you is terrible and is what ruins your credibility.

 

[John53]

But the majority who leave, are disfellowshipped for practicing, ie., unrepentant, sexual immorality.

Show your evidence for this.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Show your evidence for this.

“Although only a small proportion of Christians are affected, it has to be recognized that the majority of cases of disfellowshipping from the ranks of Jehovah’s Witnesses for unrepentant conduct unbecoming a Christian are related to some form of sexual immorality.”
— https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1993124?q=sexual+immorality+disfellowshipped&p=par

Here is an alphabetized-by-subject list of articles discussing the issue of disfellowshipping:
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200271695

(I’m not attacking you. Do you think I was? I do know a lot of lies are repeated about JW’s.)

 

[Deeje]

No Deeje - he asked a question about me - about why I am not a practicing JW any more and linked that question to JW standards of "immorality". You can twist it all you like, but he - and now you - should be thoroughly ashamed of your conduct (if not you presence) on this forum - if not, you are, frankly, no more Jehovah's Witnesses than I am - the only difference being I don't pretend to be any more.

I guess you have not pretended to be one for a very long time. You read my brother's reply and interpreted it through your own lens....I did not see it being accusatory, but he too asked a question. Perhaps he phrased it badly or you just took it the wrong way?

There you go again - what on earth does this comment have to do with anything if it is not a completely unfounded assumption about my reasons for not being a practicing JW any more? I did not leave anything in a huff - in fact I openly expressed my doubts to the elders - privately in my own home where they were - and are - still welcome (they know that very well). They were unable to answer my questions (they know that very well). However, they are civil and polite when we do happen to meet - and they kindly invite me to attend meetings again - and if I ever were to do so I know they would be welcoming and supportive. I did not leave in a huff and I have no reason to return with my tail between my legs either. The Watchtower and I do not see things eye to eye and I have explained that clearly to the elders and they were not able to help.

Where the questions really unanswerable? Or is it that you did not accept the answers? Not seeing eye to eye with Jehovah's representatives is nothing new. The Bible is full of people like that. What was the outcome for them? Tell me where else there is to go? Where are the ones that Jesus said would be preaching about God's Kingdom in all the inhabited earth, right up to the end of the present system? Who are they siti? Please tell us so that we can all join them.....

In the meantime, however, it has become apparent to me that even the WT today does not see eye to eye with the WT in the past years anyway.

We are not stuck in the past. As the light gets brighter, we see things with more clarity. "Food at the proper time" means that we get what we need, when we need it. Don't like the food? Try a different restaurant....have you found one?

This is what you would call the "light getting brighter" - but many people my age have abandoned educational and career opportunities (I didn't mind you), declined to have families (I did have a family), spent years in jail for refusing alternatives to military service (I was not required to make that choice) ...etc. etc...

What would educational or career opportunities have given them that God's service didn't? Money? Success? Would it buy them happiness? Many still opt for a simple life of service in preference to chasing after material things and being slaves to the corporate world. Who said you had to have a career and money to be successful?

Those who chose not to have children in order to devote more time to their ministry are showing full faith in the promises God has given us for the future. If it was a grudging sacrifice, then they wasted their time and their life according to you.

Those who spent time in jail for refusing military service would do it all again, just like our brothers in South Korea have for the last 60 years. Just recently the South Korean government has amended that law and allowed our brothers to opt for civilian service instead of going to jail for years. I assure you that their time in prison was not wasted. They too would do it all again.

If people are looking for excuses not to serve Jehovah, then he will let them find as many as they wish.
Did you ever think that it might be God screening people out rather than them deciding not to stay in the congregation?

And that is precisely why I am asking @Hockeycowboy for the scriptural basis of his belief that people who died thousands of years ago will be resurrected with their memories restored.

I think that was answered adequately. What would be the point of resurrecting anyone who was not 'themselves'?....who had no memory of who they were, or who their family members were?
I'm sorry, but it was a dumb question IMO. We answered it anyway. Just Job's word are enough. At the
"O that in Sheol you would conceal me, that you would keep me secret until your anger turns back, that you would set a time limit for me and remember me!" (Job 14:13) Who was he asking God to remember? A stranger who was wearing Job's body?

There is no such indication in scripture, just as there is no indication in scripture that people who were alive and cognizant of the events happening in 1914 would see the end of this system - but the WT taught that - I was taught that by an elder in my home bible study - I taught that from the platform in the congregation - how wrong I was!

Does it really matter? In the big scheme of things, it matters only to the anointed. It alters nothing for me. There have been a couple of clarifications on this issue, but I can't say that it matters to me at all because I was never one who was terribly interested in dates anyway. God will do whatever his will dictates and in the time he chooses. All I have to do is be ready for the big event....whenever that happens to be. What about you?

Neither of you have answered the question at all - between you, you have not yet cited one verse of scripture that supports the unfounded assumption that people will be resurrected with their memories restored.

I think we did. If you think we didn't, then I can see why you left and never came back. Who can reach you? It seems as if you have your mind made up and no one can change it. So be it.

I am not opposing anything - I am admitting how wrong I was to believe it in the first place.

You are not opposing anything? I have not seen you post very much in the way of positive things, so I guess it has to be the word according to siti then, is that it?

 

[John53]

“Although only a small proportion of Christians are affected, it has to be recognized that the majority of cases of disfellowshipping from the ranks of Jehovah’s Witnesses for unrepentant conduct unbecoming a Christian are related to some form of sexual immorality.”
— https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1993124?q=sexual+immorality+disfellowshipped&p=par

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1993124?q=sexual+immorality+disfellowshipped&p=par

That is evidence of nothing other than someone's opinion. How about some actual facts and figures.

Here is an alphabetized-by-subject list of articles discussing the issue of disfellowshipping:
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200271695

I'll have to go through it tomorrow, close to my bedtime and there are many links on that page.

(I’m not attacking you. Do you think I was? I do know a lot of lies are repeated about JW’s.)

Didn't say you were attacking me nor did I think it. You were however unjustly accusing RedhorseWoman of lying.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

To @siti :

I just asked a question, I didn’t accuse you of anything! But I also know the reasons and probabilities of disfellowshipping.
And disfellowshipping vs. disassociating.

I’ve been involved with many judicial cases, and I’m glad to say, quite a few came back!

I hope you do. I’m sure your family does.
(I have a hard time believing that you never meditated on what the Resurrection entails! You gave talks, and never thought deeply about those issues?!! I’m sorry, but it just rings hollow.)

 

[djhwoodwerks]

You tell us, since it’s not true.

I have several close friends who are JW’s — two of them, elders — who have beards.

Your lies just destroyed your credibility.

Theocratic warfare right there!

I have long hair and a beard, the jw gentleman that came to study with me told me if I became a witness and wanted to go out in service, I would have to cut my hair and shave, he said witnesses had to look presentable for the public. He said if someone that looked like me knocked on a door it would give witnesses a bad name!

 

[John53]

Here is an alphabetized-by-subject list of articles discussing the issue of disfellowshipping:
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200271695

I've spent about an hour reading some of those links and can find no evidence to support your claim that the majority of disfellowshipping is for sexual immorality. How about pointing out the actual links that do have evidence instead of dumping dozens of links.

 

[siti]

I just asked a question, I didn’t accuse you of anything! But I also know the reasons and probabilities of disfellowshipping.
And disfellowshipping vs. disassociating.

I’ve been involved with many judicial cases, and I’m glad to say, quite a few came back!

I hope you do. I’m sure your family does.
(I have a hard time believing that you never meditated on what the Resurrection entails! You gave talks, and never thought deeply about those issues?!! I’m sorry, but it just rings hollow.)

That's a bit more like it! For your information, I am not disfellowshipped and neither have I disassociated myself - I simply no longer associate myself either socially or doctrinally with JWs. I have never been dishonest or deceitful about that - as you know from my posts on this forum. I did indeed give talks - about the resurrection - "Is This Life All There Is?" was one of my favourite outlines. I gave that talk several times in a number of congregations - and I did indeed meditate deeply and research extensively on the topic. That's why I am so sure that there is no scriptural basis for what you said. I gave the talk and I fully believed it at the time - but that was more than 20 years ago.

As for @Deeje's suggestion here:

it was a dumb question

My response to that is were the Boerean Jews dumb when they carefully examined the scriptures to check whether Paul was telling them the truth? Acts of the Apostles 17:11 - and if so why does the WT recommend that people follow their example? There are no dumb questions when someone asserts that something is in the Bible when it isn't - only dumb answers.

And as to the 1914 generation thing - this is far more significant than you seem to think...

Does it really matter? In the big scheme of things, it matters only to the anointed. It alters nothing for me. There have been a couple of clarifications on this issue, but I can't say that it matters to me at all because I was never one who was terribly interested in dates anyway.

If it changes things for the anointed, it changes things for you. If 1914 was not really the beginning of the "last days" but the beginning of a series of "overlapping generations" then "who really IS the Faithful and Discreet Slave"? (Matthew 24:45) How could that "class" - some of whose members are (or at least were - I wonder if that has also changed now) to still be on earth at the outbreak of the great tribulation - have been identified shortly after 1914 if 1914 is not the significant date we used to think it was? In any case, there is significant doubt - and has been for decades - about the 1914 date anyway - (even Russell got his calculations mixed up on that) quite apart from the fact that most everyone who was alive then - including as far as I am aware - all the members of the "anointed" "Watchman" class who were alive back then. If 1914 did not mark the start of a necessarily relatively short - certainly less than a century - "last days" then the entire Watchtower eschatology crumbles. The Faithful and Discreet Slave was not identified by Jehovah in 1919 and everything you have been taught by those people who were so obviously mistaken about their own spiritual identity and destiny is cast into doubt. There is absolutely no good reason to assume that Jehovah would have so seriously - and apparently deliberately - misled his faithful servants. 1914 was not a take it or leave it thing among JWs - its a defining feature of the entire doctrinal structure of the belief system. Once you doubt that there's not much left.

I thoroughly recommend that you "carefully examine the scriptures" to see whether these things are really so!

Tell me where else there is to go?

There isn't anywhere - you're right about that. Once you start turning over a few stones by examining what the Bible really says, you realize that not only do none of the so-called "Christian" religions have "the truth" - but there isn't really a "truth" to be had at all. The most telling phrase in the entire Bible is attributed to a Roman non-believer - "What is truth?". Of course it was rhetorical question betraying the sense that Pilate had that there was in fact no such thing as "the truth" - and it sums up perfectly where I am now. There is nowhere else to go. In terms of figuring out what reality is and what it might mean we just learn and think and think and learn and go round and round and then we die and leave the speculating to others. I have no idea whether there is anything after that and neither does anyone else. So if you're comfortable with "the truth" as currently presented to you by a group of people who 20 years ago would have been deemed entirely unqualified even to contemplate dishing out your "food at the proper time" as the "light gets brighter" - good for you. You stick with that. But if you come into a religious debate forum and state that the scripture says this or that when it does not - do not be surprised if someone calls you on it - and be careful! (Jeremiah 14:14; Jeremiah 23:38). The Lord certainly did not send me - I can promise you that - but who (if anyone) did he really send to this forum?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

For your information, I am not disfellowshipped and neither have I disassociated myself - I simply no longer associate myself either socially or doctrinally with JWs. I have never been dishonest or deceitful about that - as you know from my posts on this forum

You’ve disassociated yourself...just not with a letter.
You should never have gotten baptized, dedicated your life and gave your allegiance to Jehovah!

Honestly, I haven’t followed your posts.

I did indeed give talks - about the resurrection - "Is This Life All There Is?" was one of my favourite outlines. I gave that talk several times in a number of congregations - and I did indeed meditate deeply and research extensively on the topic. That's why I am so sure that there is no scriptural basis for what you said. I gave the talk and I fully believed it at the time - but that was more than 20 years ago.

This is one reason it doesn’t ring true; there is Scriptural basis...I’ve given similar talks. But I’m simply not responsible for rekindling your spirituality...you must do that. You know how to retrieve the information online.

If 1914 was not really the beginning of the "last days".....

It was, no debate...

http://heavennet.net/forums/reply/1914-what-happened-38-57/

....but the beginning of a series of "overlapping generations" then "who really IS the Faithful and Discreet Slave"? (Matthew 24:45)

You seem too worried about how much time has elapsed since 1914, instead of looking at the preaching work that is being accomplished by that Slave.

In any case, there is significant doubt - and has been for decades - about the 1914 date anyway -

No, I think the information in the above referenced link, puts that to rest! There’s even more I found.

So if you're comfortable with "the truth" as currently presented to you by a group of people who 20 years ago would have been deemed entirely unqualified even to contemplate dishing out your "food at the proper time" as the "light gets brighter" - good for you. You stick with that. But if you come into a religious debate forum and state that the scripture says this or that when it does not - do not be surprised if someone calls you on it - and be careful - Jeremiah 14:14; Jeremiah 23:38. The Lord certainly did not send me - I can promise you that - but who (if anyone) did he really send to this forum?

You probably would’ve felt the same about Jesus’ fishermen.
But that’s who Jehovah and Jesus used: “men unlettered and ordinary”. — Acts of the Apostles 4:13.

I know who has the truth...because I know who has the worldwide love and global unity. It ID’s them.— John 13:35

So long.

 

[RedhorseWoman]

Sorry that's wrong - it is discouraged - but I have personally known several brothers who had beards. It is not forbidden but they prefer brothers who represent the society in positions of responsibility not to have them and the vast majority willingly comply. I have no problem with that any more than I have a problem with religions that encourage men to have beards or not shave their forelocks - its a cultural thing and I respect their right to have cultural things. Nobody is stopping anyone else from growing whiskers or even suggesting that they should not.

And in all fairness - having picked on a couple of points the JW posters made and sidetracked the thread in the process - not celebrating Independence Day is a cultural thing too - as, indeed is celebrating it. If someone conscientiously declines to join in a national celebration that should be respected too. The US is not Fascist state as far as I remember. Nobody should be compelled to perform outward expressions of nationalistic patriotism - that is very dangerous ground for a country to tread.

Then that must be something that has changed fairly recently, since, when I was a JW, beards were absolutely forbidden.

I do agree that no one should be judged if they CHOOSE not to celebrate any sort of holiday (4th of July, Christmas, Easter, etc.) but I DO have a problem with an organization like the JWs that will (and has) disfellowshipped and shunned any members who exercise their conscience and feel that celebrating any of those holidays is okay.

 

[RedhorseWoman]

You tell us, since it’s not true.

I have several close friends who are JW’s — two of them, elders — who have beards.

Your lies just destroyed your credibility.

Definitely not a lie. I understand now that that particular prohibition has been changed, but during the time that I was an active JW, beards were forbidden.

I found this:
“There is a wide range of classical music, as well as folk and some modern music, that has a good melodic line, clean lyrics, and does not express a philosophy contrary to Bible principles. The key is to find and enjoy music that will not wrongly influence our thinking, music that is ‘righteous, chaste, well spoken of, virtuous, and praiseworthy.’—Philippians 4:8.”
(Excerpt from https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1989408?q=classical+music&p=par)

“A wide range of classical music” is fine, it said.

So....another lie.

Again, not a lie. That quote is from 1989. The statements against classical music have pagan themes and, therefore, inappropriate for Christians came out in the 60s when I was listening to it. Glad to see that they are finally loosening the reins a bit, but don't accuse others of "lying" when they relate true experiences that THEY had.

As with almost anything in this world, some is good and some is bad....care should be taken. Rarely is anything non-spiritistic in the JW organization totally outright restricted.

Do you enjoy spreading lies? You should read John 8:44.

Do you enjoy wrongfully accusing someone of being a liar without determining what THEIR life experiences have been?

What rules aren’t in the Scriptures? Avoiding Fornication? It’s in there. Avoiding the Consumption of blood? It’s in there, too.

Now, the principles set forth are not rules; but they, too, are always based on the Scriptures, and are guidelines, not hard set rules.

You said, “....when I was still a JW.”

Oh, this explains the bias and the lies.
What made you become a traitor to Jehovah? Or were you even dedicated?

There are multiple picky rules that have absolutely NOTHING to do with Bible principles. They are simply used to control JWs. So often, JWs feel the need to check the Watchtower literature to find out if they should do almost anything. They can't think for themselves.

Let me reiterate...stating things that I personally experienced (even though some things might have changed, and I acknowledge that) are not "lies."

I never became a "traitor to Jehovah." I left the JW organization because of the lies being told and the lack of love. The JWs always declare that true Christians would be known by the love they have amongst themselves, and that love was simply non-existent in the majority of congregations with which I was familiar. Lies, hypocrisy, lack of love all convinced me that the JWs were NOT the "truth."

And, yes, I was dedicated...thirty years of my life given to this religious publishing company, with three of them in the pioneer ministry. What a waste.

 

[RedhorseWoman]

“Although only a small proportion of Christians are affected, it has to be recognized that the majority of cases of disfellowshipping from the ranks of Jehovah’s Witnesses for unrepentant conduct unbecoming a Christian are related to some form of sexual immorality.”
— https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1993124?q=sexual+immorality+disfellowshipped&p=par

Here is an alphabetized-by-subject list of articles discussing the issue of disfellowshipping:
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200271695

(I’m not attacking you. Do you think I was? I do know a lot of lies are repeated about JW’s.)

Don't know if you realized this, but the majority of those leaving the JWs have not been disfellowshipped. They either disassociate themselves, or, like myself, simply drift away. JWs do, however, tend to be obsessed with sexual immorality, and, like yourself, seem to think that anyone who leaves the organization MUST do so because they lust after immoral sexual relations. Isn't true.

 

[siti]

Then that must be something that has changed fairly recently, since, when I was a JW, beards were absolutely forbidden.

To my knowledge beards were not "forbidden" at any time between the 1980s and late 1990s when I was an active JW. For the last twenty years I haven't been so up to date on internal matters.

 

[siti]

You should never have gotten baptized, dedicated your life and gave your allegiance to Jehovah!...I know who has the truth...because I know who has the worldwide love and global unity.

Hmmm??!! 'Nuf said methinks!

 

[siti]

“Although only a small proportion of Christians are affected, it has to be recognized that the majority of cases of disfellowshipping from the ranks of Jehovah’s Witnesses for unrepentant conduct unbecoming a Christian are related to some form of sexual immorality.”

Yes I remember that - our Body of Elders looked into this at the time and the actual figures at the time were over 40% (I can't remember whether that was in Britain or worldwide) - more than any other single reason but the "majority" were in fact related to other things - not the least among those was smoking - some brothers just couldn't kick the habit and were expelled as unrepentant wrongdoers. Among the sexual immorality cases, most were people who were in, or had, a sexual relationship with someone they were not married to - but most of these in my experience, were young people - sons and daughters of Jehovah's Witnesses who had found a sexual partner "outside the truth". I recall one of our elders making the remark about a poor young sister who had "fallen" pregnant as a result of an intimate liaison with a young man who wasn't a Witness: "she just likes having sex" - I really wanted to ask him - "and you don't?" but I was a very young and inexperienced elder back then so I kept quiet. She was - at least apparently to the elders - repentant, but a stern talk was given to the congregation about the results of misconduct that would soon "become apparent" and the dangers of associating too closely with those who fail to "go on walking orderly" in the discipline of Jehovah - it was pretty obvious that the Congregation was not to spend too much time socializing with such a person and her identity betrayed itself quite naturally. Discouraged from marrying outside the congregation and with almost zero chance of attracting a faithful brother within, she didn't last much longer in "the Truth". She was 17. I prayed night after night for Jehovah to help me to see how this was the right balance of divine love and justice. He never did but I determined to "move ahead" and focus on the ministry.

I could tell a very similar account of the disfellowshipping of a teenage boy who was the son of my best friend in "the Truth". That completely broke my friend's spirit - and his family. After that, I no longer had the courage to deal with judicial matters involving sexual immorality. I was open about this with the other elders - when I became aware of a matter, I would dutifully report it to the Body but request that I be excused from serving on the Committee. Sometimes I would privately ask a more experienced elder to take the initiative. I never hid anything - either about others "sins" or about my own discomfort with the process.

I reckon at least half of the judicial cases I was involved with during my time were of "unrepentant" young people who (for some reason beyond the grasp of the Society or the local Bodies of Elders ) could not bring themselves to stop exploring their sexuality. A few "saw the error of their ways" and sheepishly resumed their places in the congregation - most were either disfellowshipped or disassociated themselves (officially or unofficially).

I know you can come back at me with scripture on these - I will not argue against it. But when you make remarks about how many people are disfellowshipped for reasons relating to "sexual immorality" (although in theory nobody has actually ever been disfellowshipped "for immorality" - they are disfellowshipped for being "unrepentant") it needs to put in context. They are, first and foremost, real human beings - often young and inexperienced and not necessarily having the power to "control their own vessel" yet) - and not just numbers or irritating people who disagree with you on religious discussion forums. They are real, live people - from a scriptural point of view, they are the "progeny of God". Acts of the Apostles 17:29

 

[Hockeycowboy]

They are, first and foremost, real human beings - often young and inexperienced and not necessarily having the power to "control their own vessel" yet

"unrepentant" young people who (for some reason beyond the grasp of the Society or the local Bodies of Elders ) could not bring themselves to stop exploring their sexuality.

That's why the Bible counsels us about the importance of our association-- wouldn't you agree?

I had my own issues, too, at one time. I was in my twenties.

 

[siti]

That's why the Bible counsels us about the importance of our association-- wouldn't you agree?

I had my own issues, too, at one time. I was in my twenties.

Perhaps - but my point is - the bulk of the statistic that you point to as being the major reason people "leave" Jehovah's Witnesses are young people, not yet "past the bloom of youth" - correct? And for the most part, these are not the people you are likely to find disagreeing with you on important points of doctrine such as the nature of the resurrection or Christian neutrality - right? So bringing it up in this thread was purely gratuitous.

 

[RedhorseWoman]

To @siti :

I just asked a question, I didn’t accuse you of anything! But I also know the reasons and probabilities of disfellowshipping.
And disfellowshipping vs. disassociating.

I’ve been involved with many judicial cases, and I’m glad to say, quite a few came back!

I hope you do. I’m sure your family does.
(I have a hard time believing that you never meditated on what the Resurrection entails! You gave talks, and never thought deeply about those issues?!! I’m sorry, but it just rings hollow.)

That is definitely the difference between leaving the JW organization for valid reasons other than being disfellowshipped for immorality. Those who have committed immoral acts very often DO return to the JWs. After all, they have done something that they were taught is a sin against God and they feel that they are being rightfully disciplined, so they return.

However, those who leave because they find the JW organization to be wanting in many areas, or outright false and duplicitous will generally not return. They are not disfellowshipped for any wrongdoing and have not done anything wrong other than disagreeing with the JW leaders or the JW teachings. They are, however, punished by being shunned and, as you have pointed out, labelled as immoral and gross sinners despite the fact that their only "sin" is disagreement with a man-made religious publishing company that has declared itself to be God's representative on earth.

And, with regard to the "beards" issue. Your previous reply seemed to indicate that beards for JW males are perfectly acceptable and that those who do grow beards for whatever reason will suffer no repercussions for their decision. Is that correct?

Since beards are supposedly acceptable these days, could you please tell us how many of those JWs you know who have beards are elders or ministerial servants or pioneers or even allowed to carry the microphone at meetings? Any circuit servants with beards? How about Bethelites? Any of them that you are aware of who have beards?

I have a suspicion that none of those beard wearers are allowed "privileges" in the congregation and that they are most likely considered to be spiritually weak. Am I correct in my assumption?