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do morals need a god?

ragordon168

Active Member
at a recent debate i attended between a humanist and a christian the issue pf morality came up several times. the christian members of the audience couldn't wrap their minds around a set of morals that didnt involve a 'big brother' watching over them.

so my questions is does morals require a god to be a role model of what your morals should be, or should your 'heart' lead your moral code?

p.s if christian morals said cheating/stealing was ok would these things be such a major thing nowadays?
 

Kerr

Well-Known Member
No, I don´t think morality need a deity. I know, because I am an atheist and no one can say that my morals are lacking.

But there is also the fact that a role model needs to deserve that position. If it is given the characteristics of the role model would not matter. If there is a deity, and that deity proves to be a good role model then it is one thing, if the deity is actually a complete sociopath who is just playing with peoples lives for his own amusement it comes to a different level. Basically I am saying that I don´t believe a deity can define morality, but the said deity can have so strong moral values and moral integrity that we can trust him and his intentions and so (just like I would trust any other person with strong morals). Of course I do not mean blind trust or blind faith there, if I had a deity and that the deity in question suddenly would ask me to murder someone I would never do it unless the deity can give me a good reason to. Hope that make sense.
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend ragordan,

o my questions is does morals require a god to be a role model of what your morals should be, or should your 'heart' lead your moral code?

Personally its all about *conscience* .
Actions that goes against the *conscience* the 8guilt* starts showing up which disturbs the mind with *thoughts*.
Otherwise there is nothing as moral or immoral.
Love & rgds
 

freethinker44

Well-Known Member
I highly doubt morals rely on any threat of consequence from any source.

Most people use some trivial example to tempt people into showing they will be immoral without consequences to keep them straight. If I knew nothing bad would come of it, sure, I might steal rob a bank, I could use the extra money, who couldn't? But those are little white lies, if this logic is true then it should apply under extreme conditions as well.

If morals are rules given by an authority who will punish for disobeying them, this means that the only thing keeping every mother from raping, torturing and murdering her children is the thought that something bad might happen to them if they did.

As a parent myself, I cannot and will not accept that. Even if I learned today with 100% proof that nothing negative will happen to me, or even if it turns out something great will happen to me, or even if it meant saving each and every life in the universe and letting all creatures know peace and happiness forever, I would not rape, torture, or kill my children. I would watch the world die to save my children from that.

So, after following the logic to conclusion, the answer is no, I do not have morals soley because I am afraid of what might happen to me, I would not rape, torture, or kill anyone, and, mental disorders excluded, I would say no one is moral soley because they are afraid of not being moral.
 

imaginaryme

Active Member
My heart keeps trying to tell me to go claim my Gwynnies and slay all who would stand in my way (including her husband, of course), so I cannot attest to the heart being an acceptable moral compass. :D

Morals not only do not require a god, but also would be entirely inappropriate coming from a god; but this is a modern viewpoint based upon access to varied educational references. I feel that the question of divine morality lingers because the origins are being overlooked by both sides. Many atheists want to contend that there are evolutionary indicators for morality, seemingly forgetting that, once upon a time, evolution was unknown. Many theists want to call it divine writ, overlooking the fact that all words of god flow from the mouths of prophets; intentionally human, with human fallibility. The way I see it is that some ancient wise man saw the advantages of a moral code, conferred with king or high priest; and decided that the reasons for such a code would be to abstract for the common population to accept. Thus, they said - god did it.
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
There's no question that properly functioning human beings -- those that are not subject to a dysfunction or insanity -- have a sense of right and wrong. We perceive certain aims as good or bad, actions as right or wrong. We know that some actions and aims are permissable while others are prohibited, and properly so. It's also true that there is a great diversity of opinion on what exactly COUNTS as right or wrong actions and aims. All this is true whether or not one is religious (of whatever flavour) or not.

From a Christian religious point of view, this is easily enough explained. We are created in the image of God, and part of carrying God's image is that we perceive right and wrong. We have a conscience. So what's with the diversity? Well, Christianity holds that humankind is fallen. That is, we all -- by nature it seems -- prefer to be our own master. This rebellious streak has alienated us from our creator, and as a result, from the one who has designed the whole cosmos. No wonder, then, we have difficulty perceiving and agreeing on how to be human!

What's an atheist to say? By atheist lights, God is ruled out, so the source of our conscience must be explained naturalistically, which means that it must be an evolutionary adaptation. But if so, our moral intuitions lose the characteristics that would make them "moral." If my conscience is really just an evolutionary adaptation, there's no particular reason to think that it puts me in touch with anything like moral "truths". That is, what we might call our moral intuitions are simply emotive; there's nothing right or wrong about them. But if so, most of our moral discourse is puzzling. For certainly we debate about what the (morally) right thing to do is. Is it morally right to legalize the possession of marijuana? Is free market capitalism morally superior to communist socialism? We can and do debate these and other moral questions on the assumption that there is a correct answer. But if our conscience doesn't put us in touch with moral truth, what's the point in having the debate?

One might say the point is that we still have to live together, so we have to decide which system is best for us. But there's the rub. What do we mean by "best"? Is there any truth to the question whether any particular system is "best", even "best for us"? Again, probably not. At least, if there is a best, there's no reason to think that our conscience will put us in touch with the answer. We'll have to remain forever agnostic; or what is equivalent in moral reasoning, amoral.

In short, morals are deontological. They claim to provide a standard for human behavior. More, they claim to provide a standard that has the force of permission, obligation, prohibition, and so forth. But what sense can we make of these notions on atheistic grounds? I daresay none. The best we can hope for is prudence. I must not murder because, if I get caught, other people will do nasty things to me. But such a principle is hardly "moral."

But by Christian lights, our moral reasoning and quandary all make perfect sense. We reason morally because, as God's image-bearers, we have a sense of right and wrong. Right and wrong are determined by God's personality and intentions for the world he created. A deontological morality makes perfect sense here. And so does our muddledness. We misperceive or fail to apply what we know about morality because of our desire for autonomy, which clouds our moral judgment, which itself depends on a humble, thankful, and submissive attitude toward our creator.
 

Dezzie

Well-Known Member
I got my morals from my parents. Granted, my Father has had a few dirty jokes up his sleeve but... I still have a high moral count. I didn't 100% believe in God then either but look how I turned out... Well, YOU actually can't see it yourselves but I am a good person... I didn't need God to persuade me to be that way.
 

ThereIsNoSpoon

Active Member
at a recent debate i attended between a humanist and a christian the issue pf morality came up several times. the christian members of the audience couldn't wrap their minds around a set of morals that didnt involve a 'big brother' watching over them.

so my questions is does morals require a god to be a role model of what your morals should be, or should your 'heart' lead your moral code?

p.s if christian morals said cheating/stealing was ok would these things be such a major thing nowadays?

Morals are just a result of the evolutonary process.
Its rather obvious that they do not need any god who reveals himself through some scriptures.
 

ragordon168

Active Member
all true morals came from religion.

well really the moral codes of religion came from the moral code of the believers.

take christian morals which are based on the 10 commandments:

  1. "I am the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before Me..."
  2. "Do not make an image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above..."
  3. "Do not swear falsely by the name of the LORD..."
  4. "Remember [zachor] the Sabbath day and keep it holy" (the version in Deuteronomy reads shamor, "observe")
  5. "Honor your father and your mother..."
  6. "Do not murder"
  7. "Do not commit adultery."
  8. "Do not steal."
  9. "Do not bear false witness against your neighbor"
  10. "Do not covet your neighbor's wife"
now 1-4 are more of a set of rules created by the religious leaders to control the populace.

5. honouring your parents (if they deserve it) is something everyone does as your parents can be the most important people in your life.
6. do i need to explain this?
7. being cheated on hurts so it makes sense people didnt like it and it became a commandment
8. stealing is bad as it robs people of the fruits of their labours, and by extension the tithes that the temples would receive.
9. lying is counter productive to the community so would be frowned upon.
10. same as 7
 

Kenect2

Member
But by Christian lights, our moral reasoning and quandary all make perfect sense. We reason morally because, as God's image-bearers, we have a sense of right and wrong. Right and wrong are determined by God's personality and intentions for the world he created. A deontological morality makes perfect sense here. And so does our muddledness. We misperceive or fail to apply what we know about morality because of our desire for autonomy, which clouds our moral judgment, which itself depends on a humble, thankful, and submissive attitude toward our creator.

Dunemeister, thanks for your thoughtful post.

However, isn't your morality dependent on a real belief in God? What about those of us who simply don't believe?
 

katiafish

consciousness incarnate
It is about consciousness and integrated free moral action.

Free moral action involves moral intuition, moral imagination and moral technique.

Moral Intuition is the capacity to intuitively experience the particular moral principle for each single situation.

Moral Imagination is the ability of imagination to translate a general moral principle into a concrete mental picture of the action carried out.

Moral Technique is the ability to transform the world according to moral imagination without violating the natural laws by which things are connected.

Rudolph Steiner..

Just thought I'd add in case my point is not clear, morals should be integrated within to the point of there being absolutely no choice apart from the moral one. As for the God question, well it really depends if you personally see god as internal or external to yourself...
 
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The Neo Nerd

Well-Known Member
Morals are a sociological phenomenon. Most of our morals are pretty much uniform across cultures, some differ. So called "morals" are an unwritten agreement between members of a society on how to live and how to act.

For the christian belief of god being the progenitor of morals would mean that deep down they are all murderous rapists and the threat of punishment is the only thing stopping them from doing bad things.

If that's the case then I think i'll stay away from the scum bags.

-Q
 

CarlinKnew

Well-Known Member
There's no question that properly functioning human beings -- those that are not subject to a dysfunction or insanity -- have a sense of right and wrong. We perceive certain aims as good or bad, actions as right or wrong. We know that some actions and aims are permissable while others are prohibited, and properly so. It's also true that there is a great diversity of opinion on what exactly COUNTS as right or wrong actions and aims. All this is true whether or not one is religious (of whatever flavour) or not.

From a Christian religious point of view, this is easily enough explained. We are created in the image of God, and part of carrying God's image is that we perceive right and wrong. We have a conscience. So what's with the diversity? Well, Christianity holds that humankind is fallen. That is, we all -- by nature it seems -- prefer to be our own master. This rebellious streak has alienated us from our creator, and as a result, from the one who has designed the whole cosmos. No wonder, then, we have difficulty perceiving and agreeing on how to be human!
Good, you admit that religious people - even Christians - have diverse moral opinions. One Christian often disagrees with another on questions of morality. Even the most God-fearing Christians contradict each other.
But by Christian lights, our moral reasoning and quandary all make perfect sense. We reason morally because, as God's image-bearers, we have a sense of right and wrong. Right and wrong are determined by God's personality and intentions for the world he created. A deontological morality makes perfect sense here. And so does our muddledness. We misperceive or fail to apply what we know about morality because of our desire for autonomy, which clouds our moral judgment, which itself depends on a humble, thankful, and submissive attitude toward our creator.
You've run into a BIG PROBLEM here that you conveniently fail to recognize. You attempt to justify the fact that Christians frequently disagree with one another by claiming that you misperceive God's intentions. Well, the consequence of that claim is staggering: you cannot trust your conscience any more than an atheist trusts his! As you say about an atheist's conscience, "...there's no particular reason to think that it puts me in touch with anything like moral 'truths'", the same is true for you!, simply because of the high probability that you misperceive God's intentions, and thereby you misunderstand God's moral truths! Even the most humble, thankful, and submissive-to-their-Creator Christians disagree with one another, so I'm afraid you can't dodge this glaring dilemma via the No True Scotsman fallacy.

And so, it's time for Christians like yourself to recognize your flawed reasoning and to LOSE YOUR MORAL SUPERIORITY COMPLEX!
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
Dunemeister, thanks for your thoughtful post.

However, isn't your morality dependent on a real belief in God? What about those of us who simply don't believe?

Asked and answered. From a Christian perspective, the atheist can and probably will have a sense of morality and even be quite morally upright (from a Christian point of view) even though the atheist will inevitably deny that his conscience (and the morals he perceives) are divinely ordained.

The atheist cannot really account for deontological morality. Pushed into a corner, the atheist must say, ultimately, that our moral judgments are not deontological in nature and/or that they are not true in any robust sense. There are just intuitions that are broadly shared or not so broadly shared. The atheist may attempt to use reason to arrive at their morals, but the fact is that reason is profoundly amoral.
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
You've run into a BIG PROBLEM here that you conveniently fail to recognize. You attempt to justify the fact that Christians frequently disagree with one another by claiming that you misperceive God's intentions. Well, the consequence of that claim is staggering: you cannot trust your conscience any more than an atheist trusts his!

It's true (in a way) that we're all in the same boat. But the mere fact of diversity does not entail that nobody is right or that nobody can know that he or she is right. What it entails is, as you say:

CarlinKnew said:
LOSE YOUR MORAL SUPERIORITY COMPLEX!

Humility is certainly the way to go here. But humility does not mean that we must not say "This is right, and that is wrong."

What you'll find in the Christian community is a diversity of views about what authority the bible has and how to interpret it. That's not quite the same thing as a diversity of MORAL views. I think you'll find that, even among the various denominations, there's quite a staggering OVERLAP of moral beliefs. That said, there IS some diversity, and where moral intuitions are unclear, humility and discernment are the order of the day.
 

ragordon168

Active Member
And so, it's time for Christians like yourself to recognize your flawed reasoning and to LOSE YOUR MORAL SUPERIORITY COMPLEX!

sorry if this offends denemeister but i would agree with this. at the debate the humanist speaker was constantly asked questions that were basically sneered.

"if there is no god what is the point of morals"
"if evolution is true and gd isnt involved then why do you work with the NHS to treat the sick, survival of the fittest and all"

they seemed to think because humanists/atheists believe in the randomness of the universe, they dont have human morals
 

Just_me_Mike

Well-Known Member
at a recent debate i attended between a humanist and a christian the issue pf morality came up several times. the christian members of the audience couldn't wrap their minds around a set of morals that didnt involve a 'big brother' watching over them.

so my questions is does morals require a god to be a role model of what your morals should be, or should your 'heart' lead your moral code?

p.s if christian morals said cheating/stealing was ok would these things be such a major thing nowadays?
To me asking this type of question is like asking if a computer needs a particular chip to operate. We can play and take stuff out of the computer and see if it still works, but the odds are it will effect to overall computer to take a chip out.

Similar also, are the people that try to control the environment by burning and other major changes, and think they are "controlling" the environment. While it is true they are effecting it, they have not a clue what the total effects are, and quite often we learn they are bad effects.

So we can play with components all we want, but how useful that is, is undetermined in many instances, and in other instances it is helpful or harmful.

That is how I feel when we take morals away from God, we can do it, but...
 

challupa

Well-Known Member
Morals tend to be subjective and dependent more on learning and cultural norms. They also tend to change throughout history and regions. We likely follow some of these because they make sense in a physical world. There would be complete chaos if we didn't adhere to some of the "commandments" making our survival more precarious than it already is. However, the commandments are not religious, they are more commonsense guidelines for humanity to get along and therefore thrive.
 
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