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do morals need a god?

imaginaryme

Active Member
There's no question that properly functioning human beings -- those that are not subject to a dysfunction or insanity -- have a sense of right and wrong. We perceive certain aims as good or bad, actions as right or wrong. We know that some actions and aims are permissable while others are prohibited, and properly so. It's also true that there is a great diversity of opinion on what exactly COUNTS as right or wrong actions and aims. All this is true whether or not one is religious (of whatever flavour) or not.

From a Christian religious point of view, this is easily enough explained. We are created in the image of God, and part of carrying God's image is that we perceive right and wrong. We have a conscience. So what's with the diversity? Well, Christianity holds that humankind is fallen. That is, we all -- by nature it seems -- prefer to be our own master. This rebellious streak has alienated us from our creator, and as a result, from the one who has designed the whole cosmos. No wonder, then, we have difficulty perceiving and agreeing on how to be human!

What's an atheist to say? By atheist lights, God is ruled out, so the source of our conscience must be explained naturalistically, which means that it must be an evolutionary adaptation. But if so, our moral intuitions lose the characteristics that would make them "moral." If my conscience is really just an evolutionary adaptation, there's no particular reason to think that it puts me in touch with anything like moral "truths". That is, what we might call our moral intuitions are simply emotive; there's nothing right or wrong about them. But if so, most of our moral discourse is puzzling. For certainly we debate about what the (morally) right thing to do is. Is it morally right to legalize the possession of marijuana? Is free market capitalism morally superior to communist socialism? We can and do debate these and other moral questions on the assumption that there is a correct answer. But if our conscience doesn't put us in touch with moral truth, what's the point in having the debate?

One might say the point is that we still have to live together, so we have to decide which system is best for us. But there's the rub. What do we mean by "best"? Is there any truth to the question whether any particular system is "best", even "best for us"? Again, probably not. At least, if there is a best, there's no reason to think that our conscience will put us in touch with the answer. We'll have to remain forever agnostic; or what is equivalent in moral reasoning, amoral.

In short, morals are deontological. They claim to provide a standard for human behavior. More, they claim to provide a standard that has the force of permission, obligation, prohibition, and so forth. But what sense can we make of these notions on atheistic grounds? I daresay none. The best we can hope for is prudence. I must not murder because, if I get caught, other people will do nasty things to me. But such a principle is hardly "moral."

But by Christian lights, our moral reasoning and quandary all make perfect sense. We reason morally because, as God's image-bearers, we have a sense of right and wrong. Right and wrong are determined by God's personality and intentions for the world he created. A deontological morality makes perfect sense here. And so does our muddledness. We misperceive or fail to apply what we know about morality because of our desire for autonomy, which clouds our moral judgment, which itself depends on a humble, thankful, and submissive attitude toward our creator.
I have read this post five times, I had to look stuff up; I got to hand it to you, you hide it well. Why lie? Why not just feed atheists into the wood chipper? That's what I'm reading here. Suffer not an atheist to live. Tell me, how is that moral?

If morals come from god, what is the point of Jesus? You have a big ol' plank in your eye, there, Dune. Better have that looked at, it could become infected.
 

SHANMAC

Member
IMO, we humans receive morals from God. It does not matter if you're an atheist, agnostic, or theist; you received morals from God. Whether you choose to act upon those morals and/or attribute them to God is another story. Unfortunately, we tend to act on our own self-interests rather than our morals.
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
I have read this post five times, I had to look stuff up; I got to hand it to you, you hide it well. Why lie? Why not just feed atheists into the wood chipper? That's what I'm reading here. Suffer not an atheist to live. Tell me, how is that moral?

If morals come from god, what is the point of Jesus? You have a big ol' plank in your eye, there, Dune. Better have that looked at, it could become infected.

How does any of this follow? I've explicitly said that we all -- atheists included -- share a conscience. What the atheist cannot do is account for the deontological force of ethical statements. As a result, most atheists tend to be emotivists or pragmatists or utilitarians. All of these perspectives deny the deontological status of ethical statements.

That said, from a Christian point of view, atheists have a conscience.
 

The Neo Nerd

Well-Known Member
What the atheist cannot do is account for the deontological force of ethical statements.

Yes i can and did on the last page

Morals are a sociological phenomenon. Most of our morals are pretty much uniform across cultures, some differ. So called "morals" are an unwritten agreement between members of a society on how to live and how to act.

This theory which is in numerous text books, explains the existence of morals and it doesn't require extra assumptions such as the existence of a god. It also explains how different cultures have different sets of morals.

-Q
 

ragordon168

Active Member
And just who would you delegate the job of implementing something as dire as commandments? If you happen to mean humans, that's like getting a bunch of kindergarten kids to discipline each other. Doesn't work overly well!

exactly and look at the s*** job we've done so far.
 

challupa

Well-Known Member
exactly and look at the s*** job we've done so far.
My thoughts are that if there really is a god he either isn't too competent or it really doesn't matter what we do and he won't get too fussed over it. Maybe that's it, everyone thinks he cares about what we do and really he doesn't.
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
And just who would you delegate the job of implementing something as dire as commandments? If you happen to mean humans, that's like getting a bunch of kindergarten kids to discipline each other. Doesn't work overly well!

Well, I guess God believes more profoundly than you do in the dignity of humankind. Like it or not, God has dignified humanity by giving them the right and the responsibility for implementing the morality that God has revealed to their hearts. Thus if there is injustice in the world, we can't go whining to God. We have only ourselves to blame.

Luckily though, again from a Judeo-Christian perspective, God has promised to right all wrongs and put all things to rights. So the delegation is not without accountability.
 

Tiapan

Grumpy Old Man
at a recent debate i attended between a humanist and a christian the issue pf morality came up several times. the christian members of the audience couldn't wrap their minds around a set of morals that didnt involve a 'big brother' watching over them.

so my questions is does morals require a god to be a role model of what your morals should be, or should your 'heart' lead your moral code?

p.s if christian morals said cheating/stealing was ok would these things be such a major thing nowadays?


Absolutely NOT

Cheers
 
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