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do morals need a god?

SHANMAC

Member
I imagine it occurs or occurred two separate ways. Taking care of young and living socially with other members of the species. Both could have led to higher rates of survival. Our morality basically stems from not wanting people or animals that we like or we can relate to..to feel harm..

Okay, but where does that feeling come from? Why is it there and how did it get there? Is empathy a product of the big bang?

If morals are god-made they can be changed at any time as well. God could have made the rules for this game anything he wanted, but it doesn't take much cleverness to realize that coexistence is a huge advantage to survival. Raping women isn't going to make them want to live in a society, and may end up hurting the society. The society next to them might treat women better, resulting in more production and a larger population growth. They eventually conquer the society that had to keep women in cages so they wouldn't leave.

Coexistence wins.

Although God feasibly could change his mind about the morals he has instilled within us, I would argue that our core morals have remained unchanged. Man-made morals, however, have changed to fit the situation.
 

The Neo Nerd

Well-Known Member
I'm not saying that immoral acts leads to lack of empathy. I'm saying that a lack of morals leads to a lack of empathy. The sociopathic killer lacks the morality to know that his/her act of taking another life is wrong.

Empathy is about feelings.

Morality is about actions.

Antisocial personality disorder - Psychology Wiki

Professional psychiatry generally compares APD to sociopathy and psychopathic disorders

Central to understanding individuals diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder is that they do not appear to experience true human emotions, or at least, they do not appear to experience a full range of human emotions. This can explain the lack of empathy for the suffering of others, since they cannot experience emotion associated with either empathy or suffering.

Sorry Shanmac.

-Q
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
Thanks for the article. However, if the moral evolutionists are hitching their wagon to the sociopath for support, I'm feeling pretty good about my position.

As long as you realize your argument is wrong, feel however you want about it.
 

Humanistheart

Well-Known Member
at a recent debate i attended between a humanist and a christian the issue pf morality came up several times. the christian members of the audience couldn't wrap their minds around a set of morals that didnt involve a 'big brother' watching over them.

so my questions is does morals require a god to be a role model of what your morals should be, or should your 'heart' lead your moral code?

Heart can only lead when you have one, not many in this world seem to at the moment. But no, god's are not neccessary for morals. In fact they seem to impede moral growth. Look at the difference between europe and the US. European nations are not particularly religious in comparision to the US, and they report higher levels of life satisfaction, better education sytems, less crime, enjoy a better economy, etc, etc. Proof is in the pudding.

p.s if christian morals said cheating/stealing was ok would these things be such a major thing nowadays?

Christian morals change with the times. Christians nations were responcible for the black slave trade. The pope even declaired slavery okay and cited the many biblical precedants including jesus's words. Now how many christians do you know advocating slavery?
 

SHANMAC

Member
As long as you realize your argument is wrong, feel however you want about it.

Nope. You said morality is about action; empathy is about feelings. If the sociopath killer ACTS by killing someone, he/she must not have morals based on your very own definition. That being said, I'm certainly man enough to admit that science has concluded that one of the reasons sociopaths kill is because they do not empathize.
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
Nope. You said morality is about action; empathy is about feelings. If the sociopath killer ACTS by killing someone, he/she must not have morals based on your very own definition. That being said, I'm certainly man enough to admit that science has concluded that one of the reasons sociopaths kill is because they do not empathize.

Right, they commit an immoral act because they do not feel empathy, not the other way around, which is what you originally argued - which is incorrect. Additionally, "admitting" what is already factually correct doesn't make you a man.
 

The Neo Nerd

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the article. However, if the moral evolutionists are hitching their wagon to the sociopath for support, I'm feeling pretty good about my position.

Well that I didn't know.

Can you find us an article on that I think it would be an interesting read.

As with much of the social sciences there are different views on the same phenomenon. It should be noted that just because someone has a theory it doesn't mean it's right, on the flip side it doesn't mean it's wrong either.
 

Amill

Apikoros
Okay, but where does that feeling come from? Why is it there and how did it get there? Is empathy a product of the big bang?

How did the feeling of having to go poop get here? I believe that all life has evolved from a common ancestor, and that the happenings on earth are bound by the laws of physics and chemistry. So the feeling of empathy has evolved from maybe caring for your young, or a result of an evolved trait to live with and look out for those in your group, because your chances of surviving for a longer period of time and producing more offspring is affected by the benefits of living within a group.
 

SHANMAC

Member
Right, they commit an immoral act because they do not feel empathy, not the other way around, which is what you originally argued - which is incorrect. Additionally, "admitting" what is already factually correct doesn't make you a man.

You say sociopathic killers kill because they lack empathy. I say to have empathy, you must have morals; and if you have no morals, you have no empathy. So, that logically leads to the conclusion that a lack of morality leads to sociopathic killers killing.
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
You say sociopathic killers kill because they lack empathy. I say to have empathy, you must have morals; and if you have no morals, you have no empathy. So, that logically leads to the conclusion that a lack of morality leads to sociopathic killers killing.

One can act immorally and still feel empathy.
 

ragordon168

Active Member
One can act immorally and still feel empathy.

adultery and stealing for example. a husband can cheat on his wife (a moral sin by your def.) but feel sorry for her at the same time and may realise what an idiot he is.

it is not a lack of empathy that made him immoral, this means empathy is not controlled by morals but the opposite.
 

SHANMAC

Member
One can act immorally and still feel empathy.

adultery and stealing for example. a husband can cheat on his wife (a moral sin by your def.) but feel sorry for her at the same time and may realise what an idiot he is.

it is not a lack of empathy that made him immoral, this means empathy is not controlled by morals but the opposite.

I agree with both of you in that one very well can act immorally and still feel empathy. However, I do not believe one can have empathy if he/she has no morals. How could someone feel bad for someone else (empathize) if that person has no idea what is right from wrong? Example: if I don't know that it is "bad" (immoral) for one spouse to cheat on another, and I see one spouse cheat on another, I am not going to feel badly at all. Why would I?
 

challupa

Well-Known Member
Where did these "commonsense guidelines" come from? It sounds like you believe morals are innate. It sounds like Thereisnospoon believes morals are to a large extent learned. If they are innate, how did they get there? If they are learned, doesn't it make them arbitrary?
I do believe that we have learned many of these so called morals for our survival. A society that can cooperate and live together with the least amount of strife and the most amount of cohesion is a society that will likely live to pass on their gene pool. We learned to get along because we needed to in order to survive. I think the belief that these could be punishable by a god came much further down the line. I don't believe a god needs anyone to be moral and if they aren't they will be punished eternally. I also know that morals have changed from one era to the next and one culture to the next so they are quite flexible.
 

ragordon168

Active Member
I agree with both of you in that one very well can act immorally and still feel empathy. However, I do not believe one can have empathy if he/she has no morals. How could someone feel bad for someone else (empathize) if that person has no idea what is right from wrong? Example: if I don't know that it is "bad" (immoral) for one spouse to cheat on another, and I see one spouse cheat on another, I am not going to feel badly at all. Why would I?

i dont know, obvious problem being i have morals.:yes:

so if we can find someone with no morals what so ever and ask them if cheating is bad then we get a scientific answer.

until then i still think we would feel empathy in a moral-less world. if your partner cheats they are basically saying "i dont love you enough to stay faithful" now this may not be morally wrong but your still going to feel like s*** and your friends will have empathy towards you.
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
If I may turn this around:

If morals are "God"-made, they are arbitrary and may be changed at the whim of "God". Example: the transition from Old Testament to New Testament morality.

The moral principles of both covenants are the same. What changed was the administration principles (national vs. international). Besides, the change (even if it were substantial) wasn't arbitrary or whimsical. It was principled and even foretold.
 

Amill

Apikoros
I agree with both of you in that one very well can act immorally and still feel empathy. However, I do not believe one can have empathy if he/she has no morals. How could someone feel bad for someone else (empathize) if that person has no idea what is right from wrong? Example: if I don't know that it is "bad" (immoral) for one spouse to cheat on another, and I see one spouse cheat on another, I am not going to feel badly at all. Why would I?

Because we know what PAIN is like, mental and physical. So when we see someone in pain, we understand what they are feeling, and feel sorry for them because we wouldn't want to feel it ourselves. We feel this empathy for anyone or thing that we like, or can relate to. Someone who doesn't give a damn about anyone else besides himself, will not feel empathy for the person he may be hurting. It's all about who you care about. That's why some people cry when they run over a squirrel, and others try to hit animals. A sociopath who doesn't mind murdering people still probably won't kill friends that may have. We all have different levels of this "caring" thing. The people we like more or love, we care the more about and feel more empathy towards when they are in pain.
 
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logician

Well-Known Member
at a recent debate i attended between a humanist and a christian the issue pf morality came up several times. the christian members of the audience couldn't wrap their minds around a set of morals that didnt involve a 'big brother' watching over them.

so my questions is does morals require a god to be a role model of what your morals should be, or should your 'heart' lead your moral code?

p.s if christian morals said cheating/stealing was ok would these things be such a major thing nowadays?

Sadly, most people do equate god-belief with "having good morals" which is totally untrue. Morals come from within, not without.
 

ThereIsNoSpoon

Active Member
Well, it'd doesn't really matter what we say, does it?
What do you mean?
You mean reality is independend of our wishes?
Surely it is.

But when we try to understand reality then (i would presume) we do need a reasonable assumption on which to base the start of our search, wherever it may later lead.
And frankly i think God is reasonable.
If we were created in his image as some people say then it should be clear that we have our reason from him, thus he has even more of it.

Social science tells us what is, not what ought to be.
Exactly. And here we have the problem that social science does NOT tell us what your interpretation of religion told you.
At least currently.

Quite presumptuous, don't you think?
No, actually i think it is the opposite.
Personally i think that those that reduce their God to an idiot who demands blind faith and decieves people by creating things in a way that looks as if he hasnt created them at all to be rather blasphemous.
In my view a God doesn't decieve people and thus his revelations are true. If they are true then they should at least partially be verifiable without blind faith in the scriptures he has given to the people. After all religions themselves argue that God has given us REASON and nearly every book challenges people to verify its claims.
Note that supposedly religions are also an invitation of God.

If you follow the "nonpresumptuous" path then you would demand from people that have not been brought up in the christian faith to accept blindly what the bible states without even the possibility to reasonably verify things. And you think that your God made this on purpose. Do you really think this low of a supposedly loving and caring God who wishes nothing more than to have us live in love and harmony with him in the afterlife?
 

ThereIsNoSpoon

Active Member
I understand your argument, but I'm wondering what your belief is as to the source of morals. Evolution, by definition, means that morals have evolved over time. There must be a source, however. Were we born with morals or did someone at some time at or near the beginning of man determine what those core morals should be, which later evolved into what we have today?
As a side note (an important one though) we need to define once what morals are for you.
Basically all mankind has a similar core set of morals, so i wouldnt confine "morals" as the exact teachings of the bible or the quran or.....

Anyway ... indeed i think morals evolved.
For a great part we get much of our morals from our parents. Which means that many of the things we do we do because we were educated that this or that is good or bad.
Basically we do not need any big source for morals if you assume that over generations more and more reasoned morals and learned patterns of behaviour can be added.
One of the most important aspects for a social species is the realization that groups generally are more effective than singles. On the other hand we all have individualistic goals and a certain amount of egoism. Morals then tend to be a traitoff between these two aspects of life. If one understands that and teaches that to his offspring then already we start with a basic system that gets more and more complex.
The realization that certain restrictions on everybodies individual freedoms also garantees protection and strengthens the society is crucial and handed down from generation to generation. As the society grows so does a need for codification of the moral guidelines.
And indeed we DO change a lot concerning our behavious and our morals.
This is observable.

As for my "ideas about God," they are as legitimate an explanation to the source of morality as anything else. To deny this fact is to cloak yourself with one heck of a superiority complex.
I am not very susceptible for the superiority/arrogance claim.
I think any "opinion" is "legitimate". Each one may have an opinion and it is none of my business what opinion he has.
Legitimate however differs from justified.
For a justification i would see evidence and explanatory models as a requirement.
I have not seen any explanatory model when it comes to a "God did it". Because the "how" is always missing. Not even partially but totally.
I do not think this is an arrogant stance or a sign of a superiority complex.

If morals are man-made, they are arbitrary and may be changed at the whim of man.
Well frankly there is no difference between morals being made by man and morals being made by god. They both would be arbitrary and changed at the whim of its creator(s).
Anyway. I think your argument has one big flaw:
Who says morals cant by definition be changed and must be fixed or absolute? There is no conclusive chain of arguments that demands that it is so. In my view it is more of a wish of people than reality.

Example: 500 years from now the earth is hit with a major catstrophe leaving a very small population of men and even fewer women. The authority at that time may come to the conclusion that rape is the best way to reproduce; i.e. It is morally right to do so. The point is that if morals are man-made, they can be changed at any time.
Actually morals DO change over time. In the past 2000 years they have greatly changed in many aspects. What remained constant were only certain core ideas.
For example the ideas about homosexuality have changed multiple times depending upon the time and the society.
Your example is not so far from reality.
If we take a look at history we find a lot of supposed moral code that changed over time. So actually you are rather making MY argument then yours. People change.
Slavery has not allways been considered evil.
A caste system with great differences between the classes was once considered fine.

You might wish for some absolute morals. But frankly there is neither an indication that those exist nor could we actually ever draw the conclusion that they are.
 
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