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Do plants "think"?

1nharmony

A Coco-Nut
It took me awhile to decide where to post this. As you see I finally "planted it" in the catch-all garden of General Discussion. :D

I ask this question based upon the ability of plants in adapting to thier environment in some rather astounding ways. As an example: Streptanthus breweri, commonly known as the jewelflower, not only grows in soil that would kill most plants, but has also evolved leaves edged with raised orange dots -- fake eggs, designed to fool the butterflies (whose caterpillars eat thier leaves) into thinking another butterfly got there first. Doesn't this imply a certain level of self-awareness and rational thinking?
 

Runt

Well-Known Member
1nharmony said:
It seems that was not required for this plant to realize that "faking" egg production would result in self-preservation. So........? :confused:
The plant didn't realize anything. Random mutations created markings that resembled eggs. These markings conveniently fooled butterflies into thinking that the plant had been "claimed" by another butterfly. The plant, not being eaten, thus had a greater opportunity than plants that lacked the markings to reproduce. The mutation was then passed onto its offspring, which also conveniently had a greater chance of survival, thus making a higher frequency of "orange spotted" plants than regular. There was no thinking involved, just natural selection.

 

Druidus

Keeper of the Grove
I fail to understand why people assume specialization equates thought.

Do humans consciously think about their physical attributes in order to actualize them? Do you think about the specializations you have that allow your bipedalism? Your manual dexterity? Your mental prowess? Your eyesight?

No.

And neither do plants need to think. Realization is not involved.

Biologically, plants do not think, and I state with with certainty. Do they think, that is, on a spiritual level? Why, IMHO, yes, they most certainly do.
 

Runt

Well-Known Member
Druidus said:
I fail to understand why people assume specialization equates thought.

Do humans consciously think about their physical attributes in order to actualize them? Do you think about the specializations you have that allow your bipedalism? Your manual dexterity? Your mental prowess? Your eyesight?
Good point. It's like saying that humanity's ancestors one day "realized" that higher thinking abilites would make them survive better, and so POOF, we developed higher reasoning abilities.
 

Opethian

Active Member
The funny thing is that nearly all people that are against the evolution theory have misconceptions like this.
 

1nharmony

A Coco-Nut
Druidus said:
I fail to understand why people assume specialization equates thought.

Do humans consciously think about their physical attributes in order to actualize them? Do you think about the specializations you have that allow your bipedalism? Your manual dexterity? Your mental prowess? Your eyesight?

No.

It seems to me that perhaps quite a lot of conscious thinking went into the development of our physical attributes over the duration of our evolution, but not as specifically as you might be implying. In much earlier times, man apparently recognized that it would be more advantageous (for whatever reason) to stand upright. Our manual dexterity also grew out of a long process of logic and reason - what worked better was adopted as it was learned. And we learned through observation.

So it seems to me that specialization among humans has a direct link to our thought processes. Thus the question as to whether or not a plant might "observe" in some way a condition and its consequences and then follow the observation with some sort of "reasoning" that mimicking that condition would be advantageous to it.

Makes for some interesting discussion. Thanks for all of your input. :flower:
 

ch'ang

artist in training
Most people don't think that plants are conscious because they are not very similar to themselves, the more an organism is like you the more likely you are to think that it has consciousness like you, but it really can't be proven either way. An example would be that most humans think that all other humans have consciousness because they are incredibly similar to themselves
 

kreeden

Virus of the Mind
Well said Ch'ang . I was about to say that I believe that plants do have a consciousness , but not on the same level as humans . Which pretty much is what you said , so much better . :)

Now , the way I personally define it , any organism that has a consciousness , or awareness ," thinks " to some degree . So I would say that yes , plants do think .
 

Unedited

Active Member
If plants can think, don't you think they'd be pretty bored? Just sitting there all day, existing, thinking, existing, thinking.
 

Druidus

Keeper of the Grove
It seems to me that perhaps quite a lot of conscious thinking went into the development of our physical attributes over the duration of our evolution, but not as specifically as you might be implying. In much earlier times, man apparently recognized that it would be more advantageous (for whatever reason) to stand upright. Our manual dexterity also grew out of a long process of logic and reason - what worked better was adopted as it was learned. And we learned through observation.
I was hoping that someone else would point out the faulty nature of your logic. I guess I will.

No ape has every collectively realized, as a species, that it would be advantageous to stand upright. No species ever evolves collectively. It occurs first on an individual basis. And it does not occur through realizations by individuals within a species. It occurs through necessities introduced by the environment, and the ability of individuals to survive and thrive because they meet the necessities. When our ancestors were forced onto the savannah because of territory loss and dwindling forest cover, an environmental necessity was introduced. We couldn't see through the long grass on all fours. And our other senses weren't very good. We were evolved for our eyes, as treetop dwellers and insectivores/frugivores. Therefore, we could only rely on our eyes. Unfortunately, as I already mentioned, grass impeded our eyesight. So we stood, in order to see. Those who could stand longer could see longer. They could avoid predators more consistently, find food more consistently, and stay with the group easily. They did not "realize" that by standing they would be better off. They only reacted to the environment by trying to use their best sense. This eventually led to the evolution of full bipedalism, which gave us other advantages, such as our unmatched endurance. No other species can run for the length of time we can. Our ancestors ran down prey over a period of tens of hours. They would chase them, watch them run, see where they went (being able to see easily over the grass, and climb trees if necessary), then follow. Eventually, the prey would be too tired to run anymore, and we would literally "run them to the ground".

Evolution does not operate on a realizational basis.
Thus the question as to whether or not a plant might "observe" in some way a condition and its consequences and then follow the observation with some sort of "reasoning" that mimicking that condition would be advantageous to it.
This is not even semi-logical. Evolution does not work that way. Only memetical evolution can work that way, and, so far, only a very few animal species are known to evolve memetically. These include members from the ape species, the cetacean species, and the avian species.

Most people don't think that plants are conscious because they are not very similar to themselves, the more an organism is like you the more likely you are to think that it has consciousness like you, but it really can't be proven either way. An example would be that most humans think that all other humans have consciousness because they are incredibly similar to themselves
Regardless of the faulty logic behind the opinions of most, they still do not have a physical consciousness, like us and others of our kind. They have no physical nervous system, nor do they have a need for it. What purpose would consciousness hold? Are they going to run from the predator they percieve with their consciousness?

Now , the way I personally define it , any organism that has a consciousness , or awareness ," thinks " to some degree . So I would say that yes , plants do think .
This just opens up another question. We can't even prove that plants have awareness or consciousness on a physical level. Therefore your argument cannot stand.

I believe that they have a consciousness, but it is a spiritual consciousness, not one based on a physical nervous system.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Druidus said:
I was hoping that someone else would point out the faulty nature of your logic. I guess I will.

No ape has every collectively realized, as a species, that it would be advantageous to stand upright. No species ever evolves collectively. It occurs first on an individual basis. And it does not occur through realizations by individuals within a species. It occurs through necessities introduced by the environment, and the ability of individuals to survive and thrive because they meet the necessities. When our ancestors were forced onto the savannah because of territory loss and dwindling forest cover, an environmental necessity was introduced. We couldn't see through the long grass on all fours. And our other senses weren't very good. We were evolved for our eyes, as treetop dwellers and insectivores/frugivores. Therefore, we could only rely on our eyes. Unfortunately, as I already mentioned, grass impeded our eyesight. So we stood, in order to see. Those who could stand longer could see longer. They could avoid predators more consistently, find food more consistently, and stay with the group easily. They did not "realize" that by standing they would be better off. They only reacted to the environment by trying to use their best sense. This eventually led to the evolution of full bipedalism, which gave us other advantages, such as our unmatched endurance. No other species can run for the length of time we can. Our ancestors ran down prey over a period of tens of hours. They would chase them, watch them run, see where they went (being able to see easily over the grass, and climb trees if necessary), then follow. Eventually, the prey would be too tired to run anymore, and we would literally "run them to the ground".

Evolution does not operate on a realizational basis.

This is not even semi-logical. Evolution does not work that way. Only memetical evolution can work that way, and, so far, only a very few animal species are known to evolve memetically. These include members from the ape species, the cetacean species, and the avian species.


Regardless of the faulty logic behind the opinions of most, they still do not have a physical consciousness, like us and others of our kind. They have no physical nervous system, nor do they have a need for it. What purpose would consciousness hold? Are they going to run from the predator they percieve with their consciousness?


This just opens up another question. We can't even prove that plants have awareness or consciousness on a physical level. Therefore your argument cannot stand.

I believe that they have a consciousness, but it is a spiritual consciousness, not one based on a physical nervous system.

I think I agree with you Dru.:eek:

I believe that 1nharmony, what you are attributing to conscious thought is basic 'evolutionary survival of the fittest' mechanism; I do believe that Plants have a spiritual consciousness, but I think you are trying to see too much in what is just nature.
 

1nharmony

A Coco-Nut
michel said:
I believe that 1nharmony, what you are attributing to conscious thought is basic 'evolutionary survival of the fittest' mechanism; I do believe that Plants have a spiritual consciousness, but I think you are trying to see too much in what is just nature.

That's very possible, michel. I just find it amazing and incredibly fantastic, not to mention rather unbelievable, that a "random mutation" can explain this plant's activity. That after being eaten by the caterpillar of a certain butterfly for God-only-knows how long, the plant would develop a defense system so precise. That it would develop leaves with orange dots IDENTICAL to the eggs of that certain butterfly. Not red dots, or blue, or green, or yellow, but orange. And arranged in clusters like the butterfly; not in a line, not scattered about, not in a circle. Plants are just as amazing as people, but our knowledge about them is unfortunately limited to our physical senses and what they provide to us in the realm of scientific data.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
1nharmony said:
That's very possible, michel. I just find it amazing and incredibly fantastic, not to mention rather unbelievable, that a "random mutation" can explain this plant's activity. That after being eaten by the caterpillar of a certain butterfly for God-only-knows how long, the plant would develop a defense system so precise. That it would develop leaves with orange dots IDENTICAL to the eggs of that certain butterfly. Not red dots, or blue, or green, or yellow, but orange. And arranged in clusters like the butterfly; not in a line, not scattered about, not in a circle. Plants are just as amazing as people, but our knowledge about them is unfortunately limited to our physical senses and what they provide to us in the realm of scientific data.

It's a million-monkey thing, harmony.
Given millions of species, over millions of years, over millions of generations, it would be statistically very unlikely that some very clever-appearing adaptations wouldn't appear, and, given Natural Selection, these would tend to be retained.
 
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