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Do Public Accommodations Laws Violate Free Speech and Free Exercise Rights?

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
Religious obligation?
Yes, and you don't get to determine those of someone else.

there are Muslims who work in Deli departments selling pork products
And there are some, including some I worked with, who refuse to touch pork products. I, or another employee without such obligations, would handle the pork so as not to offend their religious obligation instead of, as you've worded, throwing a temper tantrum about what they felt compelled to do or not to do in service to their god.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes, and you don't get to determine those of someone else.
If your religious obligations prohibit you from serving the freaking public equally, then here's an idea, don't work with the public. This guy wants his cake and to eat it too. (Pun maybe intended.)
Also, unless said baker absolutely refused to bake cakes for divorced people, obese people (gluttony is a sin after all) and adulterers, you know the things the Bible also prohibits, then he/she is a hypocrite. Which I'm fairly certain Jesus spoke out against. Christ like behavior indeed. If said religious warrior was really serious, they would follow their own standards to the letter. I have yet to see evidence that this is the case for this particular baker.
People will use your products for things you don't approve of, it's a little something called "retail." That's just how the industry works in general. Like aww, poor baby, you served a couple you don't fully approve of. My heart freaking bleeds. As we say where I live, harden the F up.


And there are some, including some I worked with, who refuse to touch pork products. I, or another employee without such obligations, would handle the pork so as not to offend their religious obligation instead of, as you've worded, throwing a temper tantrum about what they felt compelled to do or not to do in service to their god.
And said people were adult enough to presumably choose a profession that would not include such things. Or spoke about it with management so as to not to deny service to customers of the public for their own quibbles, thereby inconveniencing the public. You know, being responsible for your own life and not interfering in other people's lives. That kind of thing.
This person chose the job, was there a gun to their head demanding they become a baker? No? Well then suck it up and do your job.
Or at least put a sign up that says you won't serve bla- oh I mean gays. At least then no customer will be embarrassed by such an incident, which is like the first rule they teach you in customer service. Don't inconvenience or embarrass customers.
You're there to serve them, not pry into or pass judgements upon their personal lives.
 
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Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
Also, unless said baker absolutely refused to bake cakes for divorced people, obese people (gluttony is a sin after all) and adulterers, you know the things the Bible also prohibits, then he/she is a hypocrite.
As I said, you don't get to determine the religious obligations of others.

Like aww, poor baby, you served a couple you don't fully approve of.
Speaking of tantrums and stamping one's feet.

And said people were adult enough to presumably choose a profession that would not include such things.
No, we had to cover their duty to provide pork based products.

Or spoke about it with management so as to not to deny service to customers of the public for their own quibbles, thereby inconveniencing the public.
And if they were owners they could decide to not provide porcine products. Inconvenienced by someone's religious obligations in their own store? "Harden the 'F' up".
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
This is where you lose me.

Consider this question... what if the customer was a straight person (i.e. the parents of one of the grooms) buying the cake for a gay wedding? It would be tough to sell the line that the Christian bakery owner is discriminating against the people he will sell to, if the people doing the buying are straight.
He would be discriminating against the intended recipients of the cake, then.

Another question to consider: if this were a birthday cake, would he have refused to sell it because the buyers are gay? If not, it would be tough to sell the line that the Christian bakery owner is discriminating against the people he will sell to.
Even if he doesn't discriminate when selling part of his product line, he could still discriminate when selling a different part.

If a business owner doesn't want to sell its services for an event it doesn't want to participate in, why should it be forced to?
He's not. He has the right not to provide that service at all, which gives him a way out of having to provide it in a way that violates his conscience.

If gun makers refuse to sell guns to a state's police force because they don't like that state's gun laws, should they be forced to sell them anyway?
Wouldn't something like that normally be done through an RFQ anyway? Normally, for government procurement (major purchases, anyway), the state puts out a request for quotes or request for proposals and suppliers are invited to bid.

If drug companies refuse to sell the drugs to the prisons who want to use them for lethal injection, should they be forced to sell them anyway?
No. And that isn't really analogous, since the baker has chosen to make cakes for weddings.

A better analogy would be a drug company that wants to refuse to provide lethal injection drugs for the execution of white criminals, but has no issue being part of the killing of other races.

Let the market decide the fate of such business, not the courts. If a business gets a reputation for not wanting to cater to gay weddings, and it goes out of business because outraged potential customers refuse to shop there, then so be it. If such a reputation isn't enough to shut down the establishment, and they can keep enough customers to be successful, then so be it.
The problem with this approach is that in many markets, the existence of a bigoted shop creates a barrier to entry for a non-bigoted shop: if a market can only sustain one wedding cake shop, then if a second shop were to open, neither shop would be sustainable until one or the other goes out of business; entrepreneurs looking for opportunities would recognize this and choose some other business type or some other location in a different market. Even if a bigoted wedding shop might lose some business because of their bigotry, market forces could still allow them to be the only game in town, just because they were there first.

OTOH, if you put a rule in place saying that the cake shop can't stay in business if it discriminates, then this creates an opportunity for a new, non-discriminatory cake shop to step in.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
We'll agree to disagree on that.
I haven't agreed with your claims about what I've posted or about the Ann Arbor domestic partner policy. Can you subtantiate that your claims about the Ann Arbor domestic partner policy are true?
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
No, what I said was "Ah, I see now. A word in your above statement shows your bias against concealed carry and even possibly firearms." See highlighted word below. However, nothing you wrote is incorrect. Hopefully Congressman Richard Hudson's bill will correct that.
A bill before Congress will make something I've said to be incorrect? What bill? How will it make what I've said to be erroneous?

Correct. But the right to carry for all permitted citizens in all States and the District of Columbia is still a possibility.
Your sign and your question above was about carrying concealed weapons. Such a "right" would definitely be a new right, a right contrary to precedent.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It seems to me that there might be a difference in that Phillips' claim is that the behavior he is being compelled to is participation in what is widely regarded as a religious activity.
How is baking and selling a wedding cake participating in the wedding any more than preparing a meal in a restaurant participation in the cutomer's meal?

Craig and Mullins didn't invite Phillips to the wedding; they didn't ask him to eat any of the cake or anything else served at the reception. They didn't ask him to participate in any way in their celebration.

If it is determined that by baking the ceremonial cake he is participating or advancing a religious activity he is intrinsically opposed to, would that serve legally as a differentiating factor? Has that been addressed before by the court?
No court has ever held that public accommodations laws should be restricted on such grounds.
 

esmith

Veteran Member
How does that bill make something I said erroneous?

And what are you suggesting is the relevance of (banning) carriers of concealed weapons to the topic of the thread. No public accommodations law includes carriers of concealed weapons as one of the protected groups.
we shall see
 

esmith

Veteran Member

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
See portion of your post highlighted above and the H.R bill .38 would make your statement false.
Read the bill. It doesn't create any right that accompanies a person in states that do not recognize that right.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
How is baking and selling a wedding cake participating in the wedding any more than preparing a meal in a restaurant participation in the cutomer's meal?
I didn't say it was. I proposed that the activity being religious could be understood to create a viable difference such that Piggie Park's ruling does not necessarily apply.

They didn't ask him to participate in any way in their celebration.
The provisioning of the celebratory cake could be considered participation.

No court has ever held that public accommodations laws should be restricted on such grounds.
That only half addresses my question. To the other part, have the courts ever stipulated that one can be legally compelled to provision or participate in religious activities?
 

esmith

Veteran Member
Read the bill. It doesn't create any right that accompanies a person in states that do not recognize that right.
Your problem lies in the statement " do not recognize that right" The right is the right to carry a concealed weapon.

Just to educate you I will be using factual information from this web site:
https://americanconcealed.com/articles/second-amendment/states-that-allow-concealed-carry/
I will be copying and pasting from that web site.
"Every state– including the District of Columbia– allows the carrying of concealed weapons in some form. Forty-two states generally require a state-issued permit in order to carry concealed weapons in public (“CCW” permit). The remaining eight (Alaska, Arizona, Idaho, Kansas, Maine, Vermont, West Virginia, and Wyoming) generally allow individuals to carry concealed weapons in public without a permit. (However, seven of these eight states still issue CCW permits"
Now let's take a look at the term "May Issue" and "Will Issue"

May Issue
nine states have “may issue” laws, which grant the issuing authority wide discretion to deny a CCW permit to an applicant if, for example, the authority believes the applicant lacks good character or lacks a good reason for carrying a weapon in public.
May Issue” States
·
California
· Connecticut
· Delaware
· Hawaii
· Maryland
· Massachusetts
· New Jersey
· New York
· Rhode Island

Shall Issue
“shall issue” laws, which require the issuing authority to grant most CCW permit requests. “Shall issue” laws can be further subdivided into states that provide no discretion to the issuing authority, and states which provide the issuing authority a limited amount of discretion.
Limited Discretion “Shall Issue” States
·
Alabama
· Arkansas
· Colorado
· Georgia
· Illinois
· Indiana
· Iowa
· Minnesota
· Missouri
· Montana
· New Hampshire
· North Dakota
· Oregon
· Pennsylvania
· South Dakota
· Utah
· Virginia

No Discretion “Shall Issue” States
·
Florida
· Kentucky
· Louisiana
· Michigan
· Mississippi
· Nebraska
· Nevada
· New Mexico
· North Carolina
· Ohio
· Oklahoma
· South Carolina
· Tennessee
· Texas
· Washington
· Wisconsin

No CCW Permit Is Required
·
Alaska
· Arizona
· Idaho
· Kansas
· Maine
· Vermont
· West Virginia
· Wyoming

Now for Washington DC I will use Concealed Weapons Permitting in the District of Columbia | Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence
The District is a “may issue” jurisdiction which means that Chief of the Metropolitan Police Department (“Chief”) had discretion whether or not to issue a concealed carry permit to person who meets the following criteria

Now the above says that (from https://americanconcealed.com/articles/second-amendment/states-that-allow-concealed-carry/)
Every state– including the District of Columbia– allows the carrying of concealed weapons in some form.

No from H.R.38 - 115th Congress (2017-2018): Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act of 2017
Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act of 2017

This bill amends the federal criminal code to allow a qualified individual to carry a concealed handgun into or possess a concealed handgun in another state that allows individuals to carry concealed firearms.

A qualified individual must: (1) be eligible to possess, transport, or receive a firearm under federal law; (2) carry a valid photo identification document; and (3) carry a valid concealed carry permit issued by, or be eligible to carry a concealed firearm in, his or her state of residence.

Additionally, the bill specifies that a qualified individual who lawfully carries or possesses a concealed handgun in another state: (1) is not subject to the federal prohibition on possessing a firearm in a school zone, and (2) may carry or possess the concealed handgun in federally owned lands that are open to the public.

Thus now we can see that you statement "It doesn't create any right that accompanies a person in states that do not recognize that right" is wrong since every State allows the carrying of a concealed weapon with a permit. And if HR 38 becomes law (which I hope it does) every State and the District of Columbia must recognize a CCW permit from any State.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I proposed that the activity being religious could be understood to create a viable difference such that Piggie Park's ruling does not necessarily apply.
Then make the argument. Show that it is a lucid proposal. Cite the case law from which to make that deduction.

The provisioning of the celebratory cake could be considered participation.
On the basis of what holding would "the provisioning of the celebratory cake . . . be considered participation" in a religious exercise?

To the other part, have the courts ever stipulated that one can be legally compelled to provision or participate in religious activities?
What would be your best guess in attempting to answer that question?
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The right is the right to carry a concealed weapon
The first sentence of the text of the bill begins: “(a) Notwithstanding any provision of the law of any State or political subdivision thereof . . ." So, if that bill were to pass, a state that doesn't already have a law that does not recognize another state's CCW law can merely pass a law that refuses recognition of another state's CCW laws, and the "right" that you are referring to disappears in that state that does not recongize the other state's CCW law.
 

Akivah

Well-Known Member
I think there's a difference between making a gay wedding cake and making a wedding cake for gay people. If the wedding cake is indistinguishable from a wedding cake for straight people, then the bakery owner is merely discriminating against people he will sell to. It has nothing to do with speech.

Yeah, I saw that nuance from the OP.

Though I am against gay weddings, if a guy came into a store to ask for a normal looking cake, said it was for a wedding, and provided no details, then they should have made the cake. However, if the cake had overtly homosexual concepts on it, then they could rightly refuse to do it.
 
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