Do Religious Beliefs Matter To the Mystic?

[Sunstone]

Can belief bring about a mystical experience?

If you believe the right things, will you have a mystical experience? Is believing a path to such an experience?

Or, is what you believe irrelevant to whether you have a mystical experience or not? Do mystical experiences come to both the believer and the nonbeliever alike?

 

[James the Persian]

Firstly, what would you consider mystical? Without some idea of what we're talking about here I can't answer. For you to even be able to ask the question you have done suggests to me that you have a rather different idea of mysticism to mine, as I would find it impossible to divorce the mystical from religion.

James

 

[Sunstone]

Firstly, what would you consider mystical? Without some idea of what we're talking about here I can't answer. For you to even be able to ask the question you have done suggests to me that you have a rather different idea of mysticism to mine, as I would find it impossible to divorce the mystical from religion.

James

Good question! I tend to think of as mystical any experience of awareness that is not normal or usual to us. For instance: An awareness in which there is no subject/object perception, and hence, a sense of connectedness to all things. Again, an awareness in which one's consciousness resides (or seems to reside) somewhere outside of one's body. That is to say, the mark of a mystical experience to me is an unusual kind of awareness.

 

[Paladin]

I sometimes wonder why we choose to couch our conversations about mysticism is such erudite and objective lanquage. We could go on about the training and exposure to orthodoxy to mold the mystic or even argue that the average person could have a mystical experience. If we are really clever we could ask another to define "mystical" or "religion" and begin our logical argument from there. All well and good, and I do not disparage the method, but I can't help but think of Jesus' words to the Pharisees telling them that they "neither enter in or allow others to enter in" ( my paraphrase)
Sometimes the smallest experience the one least remarkable can be the most profound, and I do believe that Believing is seeing, but religious training wouldn't have anything to do with it.
Maybe we should encourage people to come forward and relate the little experiences as well as the grander, bigger experiences and find out how people do relate to the Divine. I wonder how many people do not even talk about what they have seen, heard, or felt lest they feel ridiculed in some way.

Peace
Mark

 

[Sunstone]

I sometimes wonder why we choose to couch our conversations about mysticism is such erudite and objective lanquage. We could go on about the training and exposure to orthodoxy to mold the mystic or even argue that the average person could have a mystical experience. If we are really clever we could ask another to define "mystical" or "religion" and begin our logical argument from there. All well and good, and I do not disparage the method, but I can't help but think of Jesus' words to the Pharisees telling them that they "neither enter in or allow others to enter in" ( my paraphrase)

I'm not opposed to someone using very different language from mine to describe very different experiences than those I have in mind. My only concern is that we are clear about what we mean by our language. If James, for instance, wishes to discuss mysticism in a radically different sense than the sense I use, I'm all for it. There is no orthodoxy here, no litmus test for what is or isn't mystical.

Sometimes the smallest experience the one least remarkable can be the most profound...

I would thoroughly agree with that.

Maybe we should encourage people to come forward and relate the little experiences as well as the grander, bigger experiences and find out how people do relate to the Divine. I wonder how many people do not even talk about what they have seen, heard, or felt lest they feel ridiculed in some way.

Peace
Mark

I placed this thread in the DIR Forum, rather than in one of the debate forums, because I felt that this was a subject better discussed than debated. No one's views or experiences should be ridiculed in this thread: It would be against the rules to do so.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Can belief bring about a mystical experience?

If you believe the right things, will you have a mystical experience? Is believing a path to such an experience?

Or, is what you believe irrelevant to whether you have a mystical experience or not? Do mystical experiences come to both the believer and the nonbeliever alike?

I think that belief is mostly irrelevant in order to have a mystical experience. Almost all religious sects have their mystical counterpart: the Jews have the Qabbalists, the Christians have the Gnostics, the Muslims have the Sufis.

I even think that if a person believes that he or she will not have a mystical experience, that person probably will. It may not be identified as such. It may be identified as only a dissociative disorder, a trick of the mind, or simply a cool experience. But that's getting into semantics, which is really what its all about. Putting a positive meaning towards a profound experience is going to be mystical.

 

[Paladin]

Thanks Phil,

Sometimes I get into a state where I know I'm not alone, when everything I see is infused with light and love, the very thoughts drifting into my mind are not my thoughts but come to me from another place. Once a few years ago I was downtown on a summer night walking past Jose Muldoons and the feeling of grace was so strong in me I felt as if I could place my hands on the building and instantly heal everyone within it just by being a conductor of that energy. In these moments I sometimes feel a certain pain in my heart as though Gods love was gently wounding me and the hunger for His presence was palpable. Just watching a little plant give up its seeds to the wind is enough to send me into another state where everything in the world makes sense and I see, literaly see the connection in all things, knowing that because that seed is a seed then all things relate to it, and everything is exactly as it is. In these moments of pure grace I feel a little inebriated and yet my mind is crystal clear and my awareness heightened to the sound of color, the texture of wind, the sublime beauty in everything that my vision touches.
No burning bushes, no blinding lights or angelic visions, but walk in which the line between God, and me is very blurry.

Peace

Mark

 

[michel]

Thanks Phil,

Sometimes I get into a state where I know I'm not alone, when everything I see is infused with light and love, the very thoughts drifting into my mind are not my thoughts but come to me from another place. Once a few years ago I was downtown on a summer night walking past Jose Muldoons and the feeling of grace was so strong in me I felt as if I could place my hands on the building and instantly heal everyone within it just by being a conductor of that energy. In these moments I sometimes feel a certain pain in my heart as though Gods love was gently wounding me and the hunger for His presence was palpable. Just watching a little plant give up its seeds to the wind is enough to send me into another state where everything in the world makes sense and I see, literaly see the connection in all things, knowing that because that seed is a seed then all things relate to it, and everything is exactly as it is. In these moments of pure grace I feel a little inebriated and yet my mind is crystal clear and my awareness heightened to the sound of color, the texture of wind, the sublime beauty in everything that my vision touches.
No burning bushes, no blinding lights or angelic visions, but walk in which the line between God, and me is very blurry.

Peace

Mark

Nice post; I agree with you wholeheartedly; religion is not a must to experience what you have experienced - it depends on the person, and what he/she feels happy in believing. For me, that is God helping me..but that's my interpretation.

 

[doppelganger]

Can belief bring about a mystical experience? If you believe the right things, will you have a mystical experience? Is believing a path to such an experience?

Because I have self awareness I will have mystical experience, regardless of how I interpret it. Belief is an aspect of some modes of interpretation. It is neither necessary nor sufficient for mystical experience. However, when I "believe" in an interpretation, it tends to lock me into my self as an objectively real thing, and distances me from the experience. Belief tends to negate mystical experience (after the fact, of course).

Or, is what you believe irrelevant to whether you have a mystical experience or not? Do mystical experiences come to both the believer and the nonbeliever alike?

Aside from being conscious of self, what I believe is irrelevant to mystical experience. Though, as explained above, that I "believe" can have a profound effect on how I reflect on and carry forward mystical experience.

 

[Sunstone]

Thanks Phil,

Sometimes I get into a state where I know I'm not alone, when everything I see is infused with light and love, the very thoughts drifting into my mind are not my thoughts but come to me from another place. Once a few years ago I was downtown on a summer night walking past Jose Muldoons and the feeling of grace was so strong in me I felt as if I could place my hands on the building and instantly heal everyone within it just by being a conductor of that energy. In these moments I sometimes feel a certain pain in my heart as though Gods love was gently wounding me and the hunger for His presence was palpable. Just watching a little plant give up its seeds to the wind is enough to send me into another state where everything in the world makes sense and I see, literaly see the connection in all things, knowing that because that seed is a seed then all things relate to it, and everything is exactly as it is. In these moments of pure grace I feel a little inebriated and yet my mind is crystal clear and my awareness heightened to the sound of color, the texture of wind, the sublime beauty in everything that my vision touches.
No burning bushes, no blinding lights or angelic visions, but walk in which the line between God, and me is very blurry.

Peace

Mark

That's so beautiful, Mark! Thank you for sharing that!

I have never considered "burning bushes, blinding lights, or angelic visions" superior in any way to the sort of experiences you've had. Indeed, if I had a preference, then it would be for the sort of life renewing experiences you've had.

 

[Sunstone]

Belief tends to negate mystical experience (after the fact, of course).

If I remember my readings of J. Krishnamurti correctly, he says much the same thing and consequently urges people to forget their mystical experiences. But I'm not too sure whether I recall his teachings perfectly on that score.

Because I have self awareness I will have mystical experience, regardless of how I interpret it.

I'm not at all sure what you mean by this, Dopple. Can you elaborate a bit?

 

[doppelganger]

I'm not at all sure what you mean by this, Dopple. Can you elaborate a bit?

I'll try.

Mystical experience occurs outside of language and ideas. It is a raw feel perhaps. Any words used to denote or communicate that experience necessarily depend on interpreting it and giving it meaning. But as soon as it has a meaning captured in thought, it is no longer outside of language and ideas.

How do I have an experience outside of language and ideas? I can't, because the self is an idea and it is necessary for an experience to have a subjective "I" by which it is experienced. So mystical experience is the raw feel that "I" am an illusion. It can only be "experienced" after the fact as an interpretation. The loss of self identity is commensurate with identifying my self as "everything." This feeling of unity with the universe is where "God is Love" comes from, for example.

Mystical experience is invaluable, however, as it reveals that all the reality I experience (including "me") is composed of thoughts about how to break down, organize and use the universe for my survival, comfort and convenience and that the thoughts of my head create only an illusion (however useful that illusion is) of separation between "I" and "other." In short, reflecting on mystical experience is the gateway to love and compassion, regardless of the words or symbols used to describe it.

 

[Random]

No. From my own experience, the practice of mysticism has, for example, unravelled my previously held beliefs in Catholicism utterly and completely. It is impossible to hold to established dogmas and doctrines of an institutionalised religion in the face of personal revelation.

Mysticism is the science of the soul. The mind and body are what it is about @ its most fundamental level: the focused exploration of both cannot help but result in an exegesis of literally Who-I-Am: and everything that I am is contained within that. That is the Real: the aim of mysticism is to find the Real.

However, there is of course an aesthetic aspect to it: the study of religions, which is part of the discipline, reveals most have a mystical tradition which the solitary mystic cannot help but identify with in many respects.

Nonetheless, as Krishnamurti said, truth is indeed a Pathless Land. No-one can lead another to the precipice: yet find a way to stand there one must, either in this life or the next.

The priests and theologians fight their unspoken doubts and proclaim "There Is A God" whilst trying to define Him in terms of their own flawed nature. But the mystic states with clarity "There Is ONLY God" and knows that He is beyond description in mere words and symbols. Knowing this, he finds the essence and meaning of revelation itself: that the Real is indescribable and has to instead be directly experienced.

 

[mystic64]

Well in answer to your OP Sunstone sir (posted back when God made dirt ) , when I was five years old my mother shut the door to my room one night and the hall light no longer gave light to my room and I was in total darkness. I threw a fit and she came back opened the door and told me to pray to God in the name of Jesus Christ and God will take away my fear of the dark. Then she closed the door and left. Until then I had never heard of Jesus Christ or God because my mother and father were not religious and religion just never came up. I did as she suggested (to this day I think that she was just being mean ) and I experienced my first mystic experience. And that first experience affected me for the rest of my life and it took away my fear of the dark. So in my case a background in religion or any association with religious folks had nothing to do with my first mystic experience. And I suppose that because of that religious beliefs do not matter to me as a mystic, with the understanding that I "do" respect the religious beliefs of others whether I agree with them or not.

 

[Orbit]

Can belief bring about a mystical experience?

If you believe the right things, will you have a mystical experience? Is believing a path to such an experience?

Or, is what you believe irrelevant to whether you have a mystical experience or not? Do mystical experiences come to both the believer and the nonbeliever alike?

I think mystic experiences can happen to anyone at all, whether they seek them out or not, and regardless of their belief. I think where the religious framework comes in is how they try to interpret the experience.

 

[Kirran]

I think the beliefs can act to channel things somewhat, provide some useful scaffolding, some structure. Pretty interwoven with practices, in many cases.

As well as, of course, articulation and interpretation, as Orbit says

 

[Geoff-Allen]

I had a "mystical" experience in a psychiatric ward - very unexpected as I was a very cynical atheist at the time!

Of course "officially" it was just a "delusion" as I have paranoid schizophrenia

Since then I have read and meditated a lot ... trying 2 re-capture the euphoria ...

Interesting thread!

Enjoy your day!

 

[Valjean]

People in widespread cultures and faiths have reported essentially the same experience for millennia. Religious belief seems to factor in only when the subject is actively trying to induce a mystical break as part of a religious exercise.

The experiences seem to be neurologically mediated; a sort of psychosis or psychotomimetic seizure. They seem to be induced by trauma, brain injury, drugs, fatigue, chemical/electrolyte imbalance, sensory deprivation or anything affecting normal processing of sensory input.
'Belief' doesn't seem to be a major etiologic factor.

 

[Geoff-Allen]

Found an interesting links page -

http://www.bodysoulandspirit.net/resources/links_etc/linksetc.shtml

Yet 2 fully explore ...