Do Santa, Christmas Trees etc. Bother You?

[Kenny]

Did God communicate with people who were not his own in times past when it was in connection with his stated purpose?

Yes. And God used a donkey too. Balaam was not Jewish but God spoke through him

It seems to be pretty clear to me. There is enough information to form an opinion on this because the Magi are an integral part of Christendom's "Christmas" story. And seeing as how this celebration is not of Christian origin, the Babylonian astrologers fit another picture of that story entirely. What good was accomplished by their visit, compared with the evil that resulted?

But, as you stated, it remains an "opinion". Whether good was accomplished or not doesn't matter. Good did come in that Joseph and Mary had enough to make the trip to Egypt which fulfilled scripture.

Daniel was taken captive to Babylon as a teenager and maintained his worship of Jehovah throughout his life, in spite of the false religious climate of the empire where he was held captive. There is no mention of Daniel converting anyone to the worship of Jehovah. The Babylonians had so many gods that the accommodation of Daniel's God among them may not have been uncommon. Nebuchadnezzar came to respect Daniel's God, especially after the lion's den incident.

That is correct. Can't argue with what is written.

Yes, they came to honor a new king. It was apparently their custom to bring gifts to royal children. The term Magi, indicates that they were not worshippers of Jehovah, and mention of following "his star" fits in with them being astrologers, since Babylon's religion was rife with spiritistic practices. If they had been worshippers of Daniel's God they would not have been practicing astrology....it was against their Law. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12)
They did obeisance to the new king as an act of respect, but they did not worship him as God.

How did they know? It could have been God who revealed it to them. Gold, myrrh and incense all have spiritual significance in reference to the Temple and worship.

It doesn't say they "practiced astrology", it says they were wise en. They said that the knew the King of the Jews was born. As the Gentiles were soon to be part of God's Kingdom, there is enough support to believe that God revealed the reality of the King of the Jews. It "could" be that Daniel's impact brought in followers.

Oh, OK.....The reason for that (as you probably know) was Pharaoh's worry over Israel's increasing population and the fear that if the slaves rebelled, they would outnumber the Egyptians and use their superior strength to fight with their enemies. So it was ordered that the midwives kill all the male babies, whilst preserving the females alive. The Hebrew midwives didn't do what was asked of them however, and made the excuse that the Hebrew women were strong and by the time the midwives arrived they had already given birth. So I have no idea how many babies died (if any) on that occasion. (Exodus 1:15-21)

You lost what this was about. You said that God would be at fault because people died. My response is simply then God is at fault that children died in Egypt.

Wrong logic IMV.

I have an authoritative position on my own beliefs, (as no doubt you feel that you have) as they conform to what the rest of scripture teaches.
We have all placed our confidence somewhere....but I cannot accommodate any beliefs that do not have real substance in scripture, allowing other scripture and research to provide the most correct interpretation.

As for the nativity...like all things related to Christmas, it is full of false stories. And knowing the source of those stories, should give all Christians pause to reflect on what God thinks of it, not whether it is just acceptable to them. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18) Poison can be dished up in a pretty cup.

I have not celebrated Christmas now for 50 years....and I have never missed it. We don't need a fake date on a calendar to give gifts to our loved ones or to meet as a family to enjoy a meal.....do we? And since Jesus as a Jew, would not have celebrated his own birthday, because of its unholy pagan roots, why would we adopt pagan celebrations, spread a thin veneer of Christianity over it, and expect God not to care? (1 Peter 1:14-16)

Being a slave to this religious tradition is like being shackled to a thief. You pay for the privilege of being ripped off by the devil...in more ways than one....

I agree that the Christmas story is not told right. Take Romans 14 and see if it applies because your position on the Magi is "your tradition" because you have no scriptural support - just opinion (as you have mentioned).

But I am glad that we can celebrate Jesus every day of the year, 24/7. 365/1.

As far as does God care... you celebrate on one day and you do it as unto the Lord. Other have all days the same and they do it as unto the Lord. Apparently God doesn't care as long as we honor Him.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

But it's part of it.
God says what a man sows he'll also reap. So whoever people are when they do something good that's good in God's eyes and society in general agrees. The general fruit of Christmas as compared with other holidays is pretty good. I'm impressed when I see people doing good to others at Christmas time.
Galatians 6:10

Except, Christmas (Christ's mass) is: commercial.
If the commercial aspect was missing then the fruit of Christmas could be more like the fruitage of God's spirit as found at Galatians 5:22-23.
Yes, Galatians 6:10 to do good, but -> especially toward those related to us in the faith.- Hebrews 13:16
So, there could be times that one has to choose, and thus at times the privilege to put the needs of the spiritual brother or sister as coming first.
Thus, fulfilling the Law of Christ to carry the 'burdens' ( more than just a load ) of one another- Galatians 6:2
After all, each person should carry their own ' load ' - Hebrews 6:5
Christians would Not hold back from doing good towards all, after all God makes the sun shine upon both the wicked and the good.
So, ' good towards all ' would also mean Not holding back telling people about what God's kingdom will accomplish - Daniel 2:44; Matthew 24:14.
And the greatest good is to bring the kingdom message about everlasting life to come on Earth because of what Christ accomplished - Romans 5:8-11.
This is why Christians stress the spiritual over the material $$$$$$ - Hebrews 13:15

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Better than nothing. The more exposure the more likely they will get to Christ.

Seems that the Japanese got more into a material Christmas then into Christ.
They were exposed to 'Christendom' ( so-called Christian but in name only ) and that is quite different than 1st-century Christian teachings, biblical teachings.

 

[Deeje]

Yes. And God used a donkey too. Balaam was not Jewish but God spoke through him

What's the story attached to that?....

"Balaam’s Donkey Speaks
The Israelites had been in the wilderness for almost 40 years. They had conquered many strong cities. Now, as they camped on the plains of Moab east of the Jordan River, it was time for them to enter the Promised Land. Balak, the king of Moab, was scared that he was going to lose his land to them. So he invited a man named Balaam to come to Moab and curse the Israelites.

But Jehovah told Balaam: ‘You must not curse the Israelites.’ So Balaam refused to go. King Balak invited him a second time and promised to give him anything he wanted. Still, Balaam refused. Then God said: ‘You may go, but you may say only what I tell you to say.’

Balaam got on his donkey and headed south to Moab. He planned to curse the Israelites, even though Jehovah had told him not to. Jehovah’s angel appeared on the road three times. Balaam could not see the angel, but Balaam’s donkey could. First the donkey went off the road into a field. Then the donkey moved up against a stone wall, jamming Balaam’s foot against it. Finally the donkey lay down in the middle of the road. Each time, Balaam hit the donkey with a stick.

After the third time, Jehovah made the donkey speak. The donkey asked Balaam: ‘Why do you keep hitting me?’ Balaam said: ‘You made me look stupid. I would kill you if I had a sword.’ The donkey said: ‘You’ve ridden me for years. Have I ever treated you this way before?’

Then Jehovah let Balaam see the angel. The angel said: ‘Jehovah warned you not to curse Israel.’ Balaam said: ‘I did wrong. I will go back home.’ But the angel said: ‘You can go to Moab, but you may say only what Jehovah tells you to say.’

Had Balaam learned his lesson? No. After that, Balaam tried to curse Israel three times, but each time Jehovah made him bless them instead. Eventually, the Israelites attacked Moab, and Balaam was killed. Would it not have been better if Balaam had listened to Jehovah in the first place?

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102016038?q=balaam+donkey&p=par#h=8

By whose power would a "curse" work against Israel? Was God going to allow the man to invoke satanic power to curse his people? How would that have impacted on the nation that was already having trouble obeying Jehovah?

Think about it.....

 

[Deeje]

Whether good was accomplished or not doesn't matter. Good did come in that Joseph and Mary had enough to make the trip to Egypt which fulfilled scripture.

Well, God did help them get to Bethlehem for the registration without anyone's help, so I guess he would have helped them get to Egypt as well.....I assume that they did not need Babylonian astrologers to accomplish fulfillment of scripture....?

How did they know? It could have been God who revealed it to them. Gold, myrrh and incense all have spiritual significance in reference to the Temple and worship.

Ummm it was gold, frankincense and myrrh that the Magi offered. These things were not exclusive to God's temple. Both frankincense (also known as olibanum) and myrrh have been traded in the Middle East and North Africa for upwards of 5,000 years. It is believed that the Babylonians and Assyrians burned them during religious ceremonies.
A Wise Man’s Cure: Frankincense and Myrrh

And of course gold was a commodity that was widely used in jewellery and to adorn the houses of the rich.
All were widely traded in those times. If it had religious significance, it was more likely to be Babylonian....

It doesn't say they "practiced astrology", it says they were wise en. They said that the knew the King of the Jews was born. As the Gentiles were soon to be part of God's Kingdom, there is enough support to believe that God revealed the reality of the King of the Jews. It "could" be that Daniel's impact brought in followers.

That is a stretch....IMO. If you remember, it was only to Jews that Jesus was sent. Any who wanted to become worshippers of Jehovah had to convert to Judaism whilst the old covenant was in force.....that was the law. These men were not Jewish converts.....and also remember that the Jews rejected Jesus as a false Christ. Gentiles became Christians only through the preaching and teaching of the apostles. The first Gentile convert was Cornelius who did not have to convert to Judaism to become a Christian.

You lost what this was about. You said that God would be at fault because people died. My response is simply then God is at fault that children died in Egypt.

Wrong logic IMV.

Sorry but nothing God does has no good purpose....killing children and babies under 2 years of age had no good purpose at all. But if you compare that to what God did to all who perished in the flood of Noah's day, you will see what good was accomplished......ridding the earth of those who had influenced mankind to an unacceptable degree of violence and immorality, so that evil was all they thought about. By ridding the earth of those who wanted to bring others to ruin, he halted that process of parents becoming woeful examples to their children who would simply continue the legacy. It was the same with Lot in Sodom.....all who were in the city perished because not even 10 righteous people could be found. In fact Lot and his family were the only ones and God sent his angels to rescue them.

If God had sent the astrologers straight to Herod, knowing in advance what he would do, then he would be responsible for the slaughter, which accomplished death among his own people's children.....how would there have been good accomplished in that outcome? If the star had been from God, it would have led them straight to Jesus the first time....wouldn't it?

I agree that the Christmas story is not told right.

Not told right? Is there such a thing as "the Christmas story" in the Bible? There is no Christmas in scripture. Jews did not celebrate birthdays because it was part of the pagan practices that they were warned not to adopt. If Jesus did not celebrate his own birthday because God forbade such practices, then why would we go against his express wishes? If God did not approve then, why would he approve now?

 

[Deeje]

Take Romans 14 and see if it applies because your position on the Magi is "your tradition" because you have no scriptural support - just opinion (as you have mentioned).

Romans 14:18-22 ends the chapter by saying.....
"For whoever slaves for Christ in this way is acceptable to God and has approval with men.
19 So, then, let us pursue the things making for peace and the things that build one another up. 20 Stop tearing down the work of God just for the sake of food. True, all things are clean, but it is detrimental for a man to eat when it will cause stumbling. 21 It is best not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything over which your brother stumbles. 22 The faith that you have, keep it to yourself before God. Happy is the man who does not judge himself by what he approves"

About 55CE, when gentiles were coming into the congregations, Paul wrote to those in Corinth (a city noted for its idolatrous practices) about eating food that had been sacrificed to idols. He said that an idol is really nothing. So a Christian could eat meat that had been sacrificed to an idol, and that later as surplus was taken out and sold in a meat market or in a public restaurant connected with the temple. If, however, someone who previously worshiped the idol would stumble at the Christian’s eating such meat, Paul advised that it would be best to avoid doing so in order that the other person’s faith would not be damaged.

That was the gist of Romans 14. Be careful that what you believe does not stumble others.

The last line of that scripture applies to all of us.....does it not?

If it is established that these so called "wise men" were Babylonian astrologers, (identified by the term "Magi" and being led by a special moving star) and that these were not necessarily evil men (in the general sense) but dupes who engaged in false worship whom the devil used in an attempt to destroy the Christ child....so why do they and their "star" have pride of place in Christendom's nativity scenes?

But I am glad that we can celebrate Jesus every day of the year, 24/7. 365/1.

How do we celebrate Jesus? By having a party with too much food, drink, presents and merry making?
Or do we celebrate Christ by the way we obey his teachings and those he passed on to his apostles, every day of our lives?

Do you remember the incident with the golden calf after Israel had pledged to obey their God in all things at Mt Sinai? What was the first thing they did when they thought Moses wasn't coming back? They held a festival......not just any festival but "a festival to Jehovah" and how did they worship their God? With a party, dancing around a disgusting image that they picked up from their time in Egypt. Did you realize that after he punished the perpetrators, God never again allowed Israel to make up their own festivals? God was the one who told them what to celebrate, and how to celebrate, and on what dates to do so. Every detail was outlined by God...he left nothing to the Israelites to add or subtract.

How does Christmas fit in with God's direction to his people? There were no festivals celebrated in Christianity...did you know that? The only thing that Christians were told to commemorate was the death of Christ....not his resurrection or his birth, just the unselfish act that saved mankind from sin and death. We get into trouble when we "go beyond what is written". (1 Corinthians 4:6)

As far as does God care... you celebrate on one day and you do it as unto the Lord. Other have all days the same and they do it as unto the Lord. Apparently God doesn't care as long as we honor Him.

That's it...."as long as we honor him"....how do you do that by celebrating a festival that never had anything to do with Jesus, and call it "a festival to Jesus"? Can you not see the parallel? It isn't what you call it...its what you do and whose worship is reflected in the festivities. There is nothing "Christian" about Christmas. It does not honor Christ at all.

I rest my case your Honor.......

 

[Kenny]

What's the story attached to that?....

"Balaam’s Donkey Speaks
The Israelites had been in the wilderness for almost 40 years. They had conquered many strong cities. Now, as they camped on the plains of Moab east of the Jordan River, it was time for them to enter the Promised Land. Balak, the king of Moab, was scared that he was going to lose his land to them. So he invited a man named Balaam to come to Moab and curse the Israelites.

But Jehovah told Balaam: ‘You must not curse the Israelites.’ So Balaam refused to go. King Balak invited him a second time and promised to give him anything he wanted. Still, Balaam refused. Then God said: ‘You may go, but you may say only what I tell you to say.’

Balaam got on his donkey and headed south to Moab. He planned to curse the Israelites, even though Jehovah had told him not to. Jehovah’s angel appeared on the road three times. Balaam could not see the angel, but Balaam’s donkey could. First the donkey went off the road into a field. Then the donkey moved up against a stone wall, jamming Balaam’s foot against it. Finally the donkey lay down in the middle of the road. Each time, Balaam hit the donkey with a stick.

After the third time, Jehovah made the donkey speak. The donkey asked Balaam: ‘Why do you keep hitting me?’ Balaam said: ‘You made me look stupid. I would kill you if I had a sword.’ The donkey said: ‘You’ve ridden me for years. Have I ever treated you this way before?’

Then Jehovah let Balaam see the angel. The angel said: ‘Jehovah warned you not to curse Israel.’ Balaam said: ‘I did wrong. I will go back home.’ But the angel said: ‘You can go to Moab, but you may say only what Jehovah tells you to say.’

Had Balaam learned his lesson? No. After that, Balaam tried to curse Israel three times, but each time Jehovah made him bless them instead. Eventually, the Israelites attacked Moab, and Balaam was killed. Would it not have been better if Balaam had listened to Jehovah in the first place?

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102016038?q=balaam+donkey&p=par#h=8

By whose power would a "curse" work against Israel? Was God going to allow the man to invoke satanic power to curse his people? How would that have impacted on the nation that was already having trouble obeying Jehovah?

Think about it.....

He prophesied and spoke a blessing on behalf of God which proved your position need to be thought about.

 

[Kenny]

Ummm it was gold, frankincense and myrrh that the Magi offered. These things were not exclusive to God's temple. Both frankincense (also known as olibanum) and myrrh have been traded in the Middle East and North Africa for upwards of 5,000 years. It is believed that the Babylonians and Assyrians burned them during religious ceremonies.
A Wise Man’s Cure: Frankincense and Myrrh

And of course gold was a commodity that was widely used in jewellery and to adorn the houses of the rich.
All were widely traded in those times. If it had religious significance, it was more likely to be Babylonian....

However, your position above doesn't negate 1) They knew the kings of the Jesus was born 2) the came to worship 3) the gifts still have spiritual implications.

That is a stretch....IMO. If you remember, it was only to Jews that Jesus was sent. Any who wanted to become worshippers of Jehovah had to convert to Judaism whilst the old covenant was in force.....that was the law. These men were not Jewish converts.....and also remember that the Jews rejected Jesus as a false Christ. Gentiles became Christians only through the preaching and teaching of the apostles. The first Gentile convert was Cornelius who did not have to convert to Judaism to become a Christian.

If was only Jews... then you and I are out and he wouldn't have healed two people outside of the Jews...

No, it was the Jews first and then the Gentiles for he had "another fold" as he said.

Sorry but nothing God does has no good purpose....killing children and babies under 2 years of age had no good purpose at all. But if you compare that to what God did to all who perished in the flood of Noah's day, you will see what good was accomplished......ridding the earth of those who had influenced mankind to an unacceptable degree of violence and immorality, so that evil was all they thought about. By ridding the earth of those who wanted to bring others to ruin, he halted that process of parents becoming woeful examples to their children who would simply continue the legacy. It was the same with Lot in Sodom.....all who were in the city perished because not even 10 righteous people could be found. In fact Lot and his family were the only ones and God sent his angels to rescue them.

If God had sent the astrologers straight to Herod, knowing in advance what he would do, then he would be responsible for the slaughter, which accomplished death among his own people's children.....how would there have been good accomplished in that outcome? If the star had been from God, it would have led them straight to Jesus the first time....wouldn't it?

It was you that brought up the issue with the babies but you seem to want to skirt what you said.

Not told right? Is there such a thing as "the Christmas story" in the Bible? There is no Christmas in scripture. Jews did not celebrate birthdays because it was part of the pagan practices that they were warned not to adopt. If Jesus did not celebrate his own birthday because God forbade such practices, then why would we go against his express wishes? If God did not approve then, why would he approve now?

You are changing the goal post on this one.

Where did scripture say don't celebrate birthdays? I think your position is very religious as you are teaching traditions of men as mandates from God. IMV.

 

[metis]

...it was the Jews first and then the Gentiles for he had "another fold" as he said.

IMO [which can get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks as long as you bring $5 with you], the first "another fold" were likely those whom were referred to as "God-Fearers", namely Gentiles who were often found near the Temple and possibly some synagogues and believed in the One God most Jews did.

At first, in order to become a congregant in "the Way", they would have had to convert to Judaism first because of the Law that involved circumcision for the men, which probably deterred most of them*. After Jesus was crucified, remembering Jesus' words about "another fold", they were then allowed to convert without circumcision. Ready for some coffee?


*speaking a circumcision, picture this: Moses holds his hands up to heaven and says "Lord, did I just hear you right, namely that the Arabs will get all the oil and we Jews have to cut off the ends of our what???".

 

[Kenny]

IMO [which can get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks as long as you bring $5 with you], the first "another fold" were likely those whom were referred to as "God-Fearers", namely Gentiles who were often found near the Temple and possibly some synagogues and believed in the One God most Jews did.

At first, in order to become a congregant in "the Way", they would have had to convert to Judaism first because of the Law that involved circumcision for the men, which probably deterred most of them*. After Jesus was crucified, remembering Jesus' words about "another fold", they were then allowed to convert without circumcision. Ready for some coffee?


*speaking a circumcision, picture this: Moses holds his hands up to heaven and says "Lord, did I just hear you right, namely that the Arabs will get all the oil and we Jews have to cut off the ends of our what???".

Metis... you are too much!!!! ROFL!

Yes... coffee is good... extra hot please.

 

[Deeje]

He prophesied and spoke a blessing on behalf of God which proved your position need to be thought about.

Why did he speak a blessing, when in his heart was a curse? He did not speak on behalf of God because he wanted to, but because Jehovah foiled his attempts to curse Israel with blessings instead. My position has been well thought about from the Bible's own account....what about yours?

However, your position above doesn't negate 1) They knew the kings of the Jesus was born 2) the came to worship 3) the gifts still have spiritual implications.

I disagree....
1) they were informed of the birth of a new king, but it didn't come from God. Why would it? He had informed Jewish shepherds of the birth of Christ. It was they who attended the stable, not the magi.

2) The magi came to pay their respects to a new king, not a new god.

"Obeisance" ("pro·sky·neʹo") is not necessarily "worship". It can mean a bowing as an act of respect. In the British legal system, Judges were addressed as "Your Worship"...not because the people in the courtroom were worshipping the judge, but honoring his authority and position. In the US judges are called "Your Honor"...same difference.

"Pro·sky·neʹo" corresponds closely to the Hebrew term hish·ta·chawahʹ in expressing the thought of obeisance and, at times, worship. The term pro·sky·neʹo is used in connection with a slave’s doing obeisance to a king (Matthew 18:26) as well as the act Satan stipulated when he offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. (Matthew 4:8-9)

3) If the gifts had spiritual implications...I believe that they were Babylonian not Jewish.

If was only Jews... then you and I are out and he wouldn't have healed two people outside of the Jews...

Oh dear.....are you not aware that Jesus himself said that he was sent only to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel"? (Matthew 15:24) And his apostles were also told to go only to these ones initially. (Matthew 10:5-6)
Do you know why Jesus and the apostles only preached to the Jews whilst Jesus walked the earth?

His healing of those who were not Jewish was because of the outstanding faith they showed. They were rare exceptions.

The miracles of the first century were not performed on believers...only on unbelievers in order to bring them, and those who witnessed the event, to Christ. Even the apostles did not heal one another.

No, it was the Jews first and then the Gentiles for he had "another fold" as he said.

Yes indeed.....but why the Jews first? Why did Jesus himself not preach to the Gentiles?

We have another explanation altogether for the "other sheep" who were not of the same fold as the "chosen ones", many of whom were gentiles.

There are "two" of a lot of things in Jesus' teachings...."two roads" (Matthew 7:13-14)..."sheep and goats"..."wheat and weeds".....a "little flock" and "other sheep"....a "first resurrection" and another to follow. (Revelation 20:6) Unless we understand the significance related to the difference between the "two", our beliefs could be way off the mark.

Jesus' rejection of "many" who claim him as their "Lord" at the judgment (Matthew 7:21-23) is proof that these many are fooling themselves about their standing with God. They are expelling demons, and performing powerful works, and yet Jesus says that he "never knew them"...."never" means "not ever". So who are "doing the will of the Father" on earth today if those things are not included?
What is "the will of the father"?

You are changing the goal post on this one.

Where did scripture say don't celebrate birthdays? I think your position is very religious as you are teaching traditions of men. IMV.

If you research the origin of birthday celebrations, you will see that they are filled with spiritistic practices. The birthdate was used to cast astrological horoscopes....the birthday cake and candles was baked for the birthday child with tapers (candles came later) which were lit to ward off evil spirits, and the birthday "wishes" were invoking false gods to bless the child. Does this sound like something God would sanction?

If the early Christians did not celebrate or memorialize the birthday of their Savior, how much less would they celebrate the date of their own birth?

Historian Augustus Neander writes: “The notion of a birthday festival was far from the ideas of the Christians of this period.” (The History of the Christian Religion and Church, During the Three First Centuries, translated by H. J. Rose, 1848, p. 190)

“Origen [a writer of the third century C.E.] . . . insists that ‘of all the holy people in the Scriptures, no one is recorded to have kept a feast or held a great banquet on his birthday. It is only sinners (like Pharaoh and Herod) who make great rejoicings over the day on which they were born into this world below.’”—The Catholic Encyclopedia, 1913, Vol. X, p. 709.

The Jews did not celebrate anyone's birthday because of its pagan roots. God's law forbade them to indulge in such things. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12)
There are only two birthday celebrations mentioned in the Bible.....Pharaoh's and Herod's (who was a token Jew living in adultery with his brother's wife) At both occasions someone's life was taken...Herod's birthday celebration was the catalyst for the murder of John the Baptist.

The fact that not a single birthday of any worshipper of Jehovah is recorded in scripture should tell you something. So who are following "the traditions of men" really?

Please do some more research and see what these things really are, and where they come from. Its not about what we think of them....its what God thinks about them that counts.....isn't it?

 

[Kenny]

Why did he speak a blessing, when in his heart was a curse? He did not speak on behalf of God because he wanted to, but because Jehovah foiled his attempts to curse Israel with blessings instead. My position has been well thought about from the Bible's own account....what about yours?

He still spoke on behalf of God. Even in 1 Kings 13, a prophet lied but God still used him. So I don't think you have thought it out thoroughly

I disagree....
1) they were informed of the birth of a new king, but it didn't come from God. Why would it? He had informed Jewish shepherds of the birth of Christ. It was they who attended the stable, not the magi.

2) The magi came to pay their respects to a new king, not a new god.

"Obeisance" ("pro·sky·neʹo") is not necessarily "worship". It can mean a bowing as an act of respect. In the British legal system, Judges were addressed as "Your Worship"...not because the people in the courtroom were worshipping the judge, but honoring his authority and position. In the US judges are called "Your Honor"...same difference.

"Pro·sky·neʹo" corresponds closely to the Hebrew term hish·ta·chawahʹ in expressing the thought of obeisance and, at times, worship. The term pro·sky·neʹo is used in connection with a slave’s doing obeisance to a king (Matthew 18:26) as well as the act Satan stipulated when he offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. (Matthew 4:8-9)

3) If the gifts had spiritual implications...I believe that they were Babylonian not Jewish.

Yes... and I do support you in your "opinion". But you haven't debunked my position and, as I said from the beginning, it is just your opinion.

Oh dear.....are you not aware that Jesus himself said that he was sent only to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel"? (Matthew 15:24) And his apostles were also told to go only to these ones initially. (Matthew 10:5-6)
Do you know why Jesus and the apostles only preached to the Jews whilst Jesus walked the earth?

His healing of those who were not Jewish was because of the outstanding faith they showed. They were rare exceptions.

The miracles of the first century were not performed on believers...only on unbelievers in order to bring them, and those who witnessed the event, to Christ. Even the apostles did not heal one another.

We live by faith and not by sight... which God spoke to Israel too.

Yes indeed.....but why the Jews first? Why did Jesus himself not preach to the Gentiles?

We have another explanation altogether for the "other sheep" who were not of the same fold as the "chosen ones", many of whom were gentiles.

There are "two" of a lot of things in Jesus' teachings...."two roads" (Matthew 7:13-14)..."sheep and goats"..."wheat and weeds".....a "little flock" and "other sheep"....a "first resurrection" and another to follow. (Revelation 20:6) Unless we understand the significance related to the difference between the "two", our beliefs could be way off the mark.

Jesus' rejection of "many" who claim him as their "Lord" at the judgment (Matthew 7:21-23) is proof that these many are fooling themselves about their standing with God. They are expelling demons, and performing powerful works, and yet Jesus says that he "never knew them"...."never" means "not ever". So who are "doing the will of the Father" on earth today if those things are not included?
What is "the will of the father"?

John 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

But that which was not of this fold, didn't really begin until Cornelius was saved.

If you research the origin of birthday celebrations, you will see that they are filled with spiritistic practices. The birthdate was used to cast astrological horoscopes....the birthday cake and candles was baked for the birthday child with tapers (candles came later) which were lit to ward off evil spirits, and the birthday "wishes" were invoking false gods to bless the child. Does this sound like something God would sanction?

If the early Christians did not celebrate or memorialize the birthday of their Savior, how much less would they celebrate the date of their own birth?

Historian Augustus Neander writes: “The notion of a birthday festival was far from the ideas of the Christians of this period.” (The History of the Christian Religion and Church, During the Three First Centuries, translated by H. J. Rose, 1848, p. 190)

“Origen [a writer of the third century C.E.] . . . insists that ‘of all the holy people in the Scriptures, no one is recorded to have kept a feast or held a great banquet on his birthday. It is only sinners (like Pharaoh and Herod) who make great rejoicings over the day on which they were born into this world below.’”—The Catholic Encyclopedia, 1913, Vol. X, p. 709.

The Jews did not celebrate anyone's birthday because of its pagan roots. God's law forbade them to indulge in such things. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12)
There are only two birthday celebrations mentioned in the Bible.....Pharaoh's and Herod's (who was a token Jew living in adultery with his brother's wife) At both occasions someone's life was taken...Herod's birthday celebration was the catalyst for the murder of John the Baptist.

The fact that not a single birthday of any worshipper of Jehovah is recorded in scripture should tell you something. So who are following "the traditions of men" really?

Please do some more research and see what these things really are, and where they come from. Its not about what we think of them....its what God thinks about them that counts.....isn't it?

I see you are intent on teaching as commandments the tradition of man.

Deuteronomy 18 is about Pagan worship! Has nothing to do with birthdays. Mind you, you don't have to since you do it as unto the Lord. But don't judge my God given freedom either. Rom 14.

What does God think? That which is not of faith is sin. Your in faith in not celebrating birthdays. I'm in faith in celebrating birthdays. Your in faith in keeping the Sabbath and I'm in faith keeping every day a Sabbath. etc etc.

How about.. just love one another as Christ has loved us?

 

[Skywalker]

This thread isn't meant to be about Christmas itself, just the symbols around it such as Santa, Rudolf, trees etc.

To me Santa represents people replacing Jesus with a false representation of Him.

 

[Deeje]

He still spoke on behalf of God. Even in 1 Kings 13, a prophet lied but God still used him. So I don't think you have thought it out thoroughly

Do things happen that are recorded in scripture for no reason? What was the lesson? The lesson wasn't focused on the lying old prophet but on the "man of the true God" who neglected to confirm whether the old prophet had a message that cancelled out the one that he got from God. To teach the true prophet what it means to go contrary to a direct order from God, (which cost him his life) Jehovah ironically used the lying prophet to deliver the message of his death sentence.

However, when the old prophet heard that Jehovah had indeed caused the death of the disobedient one, he immediately went out with his sons to retrieve the body and to bury him in his own tomb and to mourn him. What do you think the old prophet was thinking at this juncture? He had caused a man of the true God to transgress by claiming to have received a counter message from an angel. His lie caused the death of an otherwise righteous man.....because the old man also claimed to be a prophet of God, the visiting prophet let his guard down. His conscience would have probably bothered him for the rest of his life.

Paul's words seem appropriate here....."However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyond the good news we declared to you, let him be accursed." (Galatians 1:8)

The first prophet should have checked the old man's credentials and realized that if Jehovah himself had not altered his mission, then no one else could...not even an angel.

I have to ask if you study these things Ken? "A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing" if you don't have the whole picture....and drawing the correct conclusions.

 

[Deeje]

Yes... and I do support you in your "opinion". But you haven't debunked my position and, as I said from the beginning, it is just your opinion.

I understand, and opinions that are held should be fully informed ones....not based on emotion but on scriptural facts and good research.....wouldn't you agree?
I was in your position 50 years ago, which is why I feel so strongly about good people being misled by Christendom's teachings and practices. But it is your choice to believe as you wish.

We live by faith and not by sight... which God spoke to Israel too.

The question was ...."Do you know why Jesus and the apostles only preached to the Jews whilst Jesus walked the earth?" How is that an answer?
If Jesus was sent only to the Jews (not the religious leaders, but to "the lost sheep") then why was his ministry so exclusive? Why were the apostles only to preach to Jews initially?
Can you answer? Its a very important question.

John 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

But that which was not of this fold, didn't really begin until Cornelius was saved.

That is one way to interpret things....but I don't think its accurate.

The two "folds" we believe are those who have the "heavenly calling" (Hebrews 3:1) which Jesus referred to as the "little flock". (Luke 12:32) These were a specifically numbered group, chosen by God from among mankind, but not exclusively from among the natural Jews because not enough of them accepted Christ as Messiah. They were chosen to rule with Christ in his Kingdom, but they would have earthly subjects, made up of an entirely different flock, but all led by the same Shepherd.

These two groups are identified in Revelation 7 ....
"After this I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding tight the four winds of the earth, so that no wind could blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrise, having a seal of the living God; and he called with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.”

4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel . . . .
After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb. . . . .In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

So there is a choosing of a first group who are 'sealed in their foreheads' "out of every tribe of the sons of Israel". These are numbered....but the second group are without number, who come "out of all nations" (including natural Jews who accept Jesus as Messiah) and they are attributing 'salvation to God and to the Lamb'. These he says, "come out of the great tribulation" which occurs here on earth....as survivors. (Matthew 24:21)
These survivors are pictured as receiving the blessings of the Kingdom in Revelation 21:2-4...

"I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

So, since fleshly Israel was abandoned by God because they broke their covenant with him, (Matthew 23:37-39) God chose a new nation whom Jesus' brother James identified as "a people for [God's] name" who were disciples of Jesus, made up of people of all nations. (Acts 15:15) Paul called these ones "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16).....these are not fleshly Israel, but spiritual Israel whom God accepted by "adoption as sons"....the only other way to become God's children. God changed what it meant to be a "Jew". (Romans 8:28-29)

I don't believe that the scriptures say what most people in Christendom think they do...
So you see, by studying the Bible and letting it tell the story, we can come to very different conclusions. Our Bible study is deep and very thorough.....apart from our witnessing, (which is commanded by Jesus) its all we do.

 

[Deeje]

I see you are intent on teaching as commandments the tradition of man.

So after all I posted about the pagan roots of your adopted celebrations, you still want to cling to them, knowing how God felt about the originals .....all I can say is, please be careful about justification.....its what gets "Christians" killing people in wars, and being hatefully divided from their brothers over politics.....remember who rules the world....and Jesus' warning to be "no part" of it....that is because of who rules it. (1 John 5:19; Luke 4:5-8)

Deuteronomy 18 is about Pagan worship! Has nothing to do with birthdays. Mind you, you don't have to since you do it as unto the Lord. But don't judge my God given freedom either. Rom 14.

Awwwe Ken

....Deuteronomy was about worship.....false worship and what defined it. The pagans celebrated birthdays as part of their spiritistic religion, but the Jews and the early Christians did not. That is a fact. They did not celebrate Christmas or Easter either, because both were adoptions from paganism. You can't mix the two and remain blameless before God. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18) We have to 'separate' ourselves from those things as it plainly states. What do you think happens if we ignore that directive and "touch" what is spiritually "unclean"?

What does God think? That which is not of faith is sin. Your in faith in not celebrating birthdays. I'm in faith in celebrating birthdays. Your in faith in keeping the Sabbath and I'm in faith keeping every day a Sabbath. etc etc.

We are not Sabbath keepers, why did you assume that? Are you confusing us with SDA's? ......its not because the sabbath is a bad thing to observe, but because it was only given to the Jews. It was not demanded that gentiles keep the Sabbath or to practice circumcision or anything else related to the old covenant. What Jesus taught became part of the New Covenant.

How about.. just love one another as Christ has loved us?

If only it was that simple....

How is it loving to allow someone to believe lies and to unwittingly engage in conduct that God condemns? Jesus will reject those who fail to do the will of the Father in all things...(Matthew 7:21-23)....how can it be the will of the Father to engage in practices for which he punished his ancient people....falling away to false worship and practicing what God hated? Will the punishment be any less? God does not change.

It is entirely your choice to make, but it is with a heavy heart that I see you justifying what can never be justified from scripture if you really care about what God thinks.

Do you remember the illustration of the man who considered himself a good Christian who went to church every Sunday, and put his money in the plate, said his prayers every night, and even invited the minister for the occasional meal....
He was sitting on his front porch reading his Bible as car after car passed his house and round a blind corner to certain death because a storm had washed away a bridge over a deep ravine. He figured that warning them wasn't his job. It was their choice to drive on that road and he had no right to interfere with their choice. He'd pray for them and if God wanted them saved then he would see to it.

I am a different kind of Christian because I'd be down on that road waving my arms like a mad thing trying to warn the people about what was round that corner. I couldn't force them to believe me, but at least they had a chance to save themselves if they listened.
Which one do we need to be? Which one was Jesus?

I copped a lot of flack from family and friends when I gave up Christmas and Easter and birthdays, but I had the satisfaction of knowing that God approved, and that was all that mattered to me. (John 15:18-21)

I love you, but you're breaking my heart...

 

[Kenny]

Do things happen that are recorded in scripture for no reason? What was the lesson? The lesson wasn't focused on the lying old prophet but on the "man of the true God" who neglected to confirm whether the old prophet had a message that cancelled out the one that he got from God. To teach the true prophet what it means to go contrary to a direct order from God, (which cost him his life) Jehovah ironically used the lying prophet to deliver the message of his death sentence.

However, when the old prophet heard that Jehovah had indeed caused the death of the disobedient one, he immediately went out with his sons to retrieve the body and to bury him in his own tomb and to mourn him. What do you think the old prophet was thinking at this juncture? He had caused a man of the true God to transgress by claiming to have received a counter message from an angel. His lie caused the death of an otherwise righteous man.....because the old man also claimed to be a prophet of God, the visiting prophet let his guard down. His conscience would have probably bothered him for the rest of his life.

Paul's words seem appropriate here....."However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyond the good news we declared to you, let him be accursed." (Galatians 1:8)

The first prophet should have checked the old man's credentials and realized that if Jehovah himself had not altered his mission, then no one else could...not even an angel.

I have to ask if you study these things Ken? "A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing" if you don't have the whole picture....and drawing the correct conclusions.

You have a tendency to change the subject. We aren't talking about "what one can learn" but rather how people who are not of the Jewish people can still hear God and be used of God. And, for that matter and in context, a prophet can even lie and still be used of God and thus "let every word of a prophet be judged by other prophets"... because everyone is human.

the points has been, if I can through so much that wasn't in context, is that:

1. Balaam blessed Israel and was used of God - but let money get in the way and fame (You have permission to use that in a message)
2. He heard the voice of God and followed God's commandment and did not curse Israel. (Some kings hear the voice of God and still don't follow) - even though at the end he told them how to make Israel sin (all for the money and fame)
3. You haven't established anything except offer opinions. Not that they are bad opinions but just opinions.

on a side note: As compared to all the God knows, you and I have VERY little knowledge! are you dangerous?

And all of that coming from the real subject... Christmas! Blessed Christmas Deeje - everyday.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Jesus was 33 1/2 years old when he was put to death in the Jewish Spring month of Nisan.
Thus, Jesus would have turned 34 in the Fall or the Autumn of the year, No December day to celebrate his: birth.
Conception would also have nothing to do with Jesus becoming Messiah which was on the day of his: baptism.
Jesus warned against man-made tradition outside of Scripture - Matthew 15:9

You have no idea the exact age of Jesus when he was put to death.

 

[Kenny]

I was in your position 50 years ago, which is why I feel so strongly about good people being misled by Christendom's teachings and practices. But it is your choice to believe as you wish.

Fifty years ago, I didn't even believe in Jesus. So it wouldn't be right to make declarations as such. You don't know what I have been taught nor what I have taught. Did you forget that I knew that there were no kings at the stable?

But you are welcome to let go of one tradition of men declared to be commandments of God and switch it for another.

The question was ...."Do you know why Jesus and the apostles only preached to the Jews whilst Jesus walked the earth?" How is that an answer?
If Jesus was sent only to the Jews (not the religious leaders, but to "the lost sheep") then why was his ministry so exclusive? Why were the apostles only to preach to Jews initially?
Can you answer? Its a very important question.

Always open to more perspective... but first, salvation is of the Jews and God was giving the Jews one last opportunity to fill their destiny. (Although one more Jewish effort will be given from 12 tribes in the end time). They were always called to be priests to the nations.

Interestingly enough, though he said to the disciples to preach only to the lost sheep of Israel, he made sure he went to preach to the Samaritans.

He also did it because, as stated by Ezekiel, they were sheep without a shepherd.

It is also suggested that God was giving them another opportunity before adding the Gentiles to be ambassadors from Christ.

I'm sure there are more.. feel free to add (you do add many times )

That is one way to interpret things....but I don't think its accurate.

The two "folds" we believe are those who have the "heavenly calling" (Hebrews 3:1) which Jesus referred to as the "little flock". (Luke 12:32) These were a specifically numbered group, chosen by God from among mankind, but not exclusively from among the natural Jews because not enough of them accepted Christ as Messiah. They were chosen to rule with Christ in his Kingdom, but they would have earthly subjects, made up of an entirely different flock, but all led by the same Shepherd.

These two groups are identified in Revelation 7 ....
"After this I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding tight the four winds of the earth, so that no wind could blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrise, having a seal of the living God; and he called with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.”

4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel . . . .
After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb. . . . .In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

So there is a choosing of a first group who are 'sealed in their foreheads' "out of every tribe of the sons of Israel". These are numbered....but the second group are without number, who come "out of all nations" (including natural Jews who accept Jesus as Messiah) and they are attributing 'salvation to God and to the Lamb'. These he says, "come out of the great tribulation" which occurs here on earth....as survivors. (Matthew 24:21)
These survivors are pictured as receiving the blessings of the Kingdom in Revelation 21:2-4...

"I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

So, since fleshly Israel was abandoned by God because they broke their covenant with him, (Matthew 23:37-39) God chose a new nation whom Jesus' brother James identified as "a people for [God's] name" who were disciples of Jesus, made up of people of all nations. (Acts 15:15) Paul called these ones "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16).....these are not fleshly Israel, but spiritual Israel whom God accepted by "adoption as sons"....the only other way to become God's children. God changed what it meant to be a "Jew". (Romans 8:28-29)

I don't believe that the scriptures say what most people in Christendom think they do...
So you see, by studying the Bible and letting it tell the story, we can come to very different conclusions. Our Bible study is deep and very thorough.....apart from our witnessing, (which is commanded by Jesus) its all we do.

Hmmmmm.... no.

You opinion has no substantive support. It's an opinion that God won't condemn you for... but it remains an opinion

 

[Skywalker]

You have a tendency to change the subject. We aren't talking about "what one can learn" but rather how people who are not of the Jewish people can still hear God and be used of God. And, for that matter and in context, a prophet can even lie and still be used of God and thus "let every word of a prophet be judged by other prophets"... because everyone is human.

the points has been, if I can through so much that wasn't in context, is that:

1. Balaam blessed Israel and was used of God - but let money get in the way and fame (You have permission to use that in a message)
2. He heard the voice of God and followed God's commandment and did not curse Israel. (Some kings hear the voice of God and still don't follow) - even though at the end he told them how to make Israel sin (all for the money and fame)
3. You haven't established anything except offer opinions. Not that they are bad opinions but just opinions.

on a side note: As compared to all the God knows, you and I have VERY little knowledge! are you dangerous?

And all of that coming from the real subject... Christmas! Blessed Christmas Deeje - everyday.

I remember someone said that as Christians, we are Jews because we believe in Abraham. The Bible mentions spiritual Jews.

What is spiritual Israel? | GotQuestions.org

What is spiritual Israel?

Question: "What is spiritual Israel?"

Answer: The phrase spiritual Israel is used in two primary contexts. The first is as a reference to the entire body of Christian believers, in distinction to the political or racial people of Israel. Spiritual Israel is also sometimes used to suggest concepts related to replacement theology, in which the promises directed toward Israel are now given to the Church, instead.

Galatians 6:16 refers to the “Israel of God.” Given how frequently Paul dismisses ethic or national divisions in this same letter (Galatians 3:26; 4:5–7; 6:15), it is unlikely that he encourages such divisions here. Instead, he refers to the readers as being similar to Isaac: they are the “children of promise” (Galatians 4:28). Paul has a spiritual group in mind in Galatians 6:16, not an ethnic one. This reference to spiritual Israel is clear enough, but not every reference by Paul to Israel is spiritual in nature. Some, such as Romans 9:4, are national and literal. The context is key.

There are other places in the New Testament that suggest a “spiritual Israel” in that they echo terms used in the Old Testament to refer to the Israelites. First Peter 2:9 uses the same terminology as Exodus 19:5–6 in reference to Christians. Galatians 3:29 uses the term heirs, as does Isaiah 65:9. All Christians are “fellow citizens” and members of the house of God, according to Ephesians 2:12–13. Romans 10:12 also says the same—there is no national preference with respect to salvation. Just as we become spiritual “sons of Abraham” by faith (Galatians 3:7), so we can be considered “spiritual Israel” when we receive Christ. In the sense that ethnicity and politics have no relationship to salvation, the term spiritual Israel presents no noteworthy problems.

Replacement theology, on the other hand, uses the concept of a “spiritual Israel” differently. Replacement theology essentially teaches that the church has replaced Israel in God’s plan and that the many promises God made to Israel are fulfilled in the Church instead—Old Testament prophecies are allegorized in order to make them applicable to the church. Replacement theology presents major theological problems, because Scripture says that God has not forgotten or changed His promises to Israel (see Romans 11:1–2, 11, 23, 26, 29). Teaching that promotes a “spiritual Israel,” in the sense that the Church is the focus of God’s prophetic promises for Israel, is not biblically valid.