Do Shiva and Shakti really have a place in Satanism?

[agorman]

I've noticed many Satanists equate Satan with Shiva and Shakti or Kali with her consort. But the LHP in India is more about destroying the ego and merging with Brahman (the goal of RHP) in non-orthodox ways or by methods not accepted by Indian Society; like eating meat or having gay sex, etc.

Isn't Satanism and the Western LHP's goal of self-deification about "the dominion of spirit over ego" with the difference that "spirit" or "true self" doesn't refer to God/Brahman but an independent being?

I once made the experiment of putting Jesus and Mary on my altar with a sign "Mother Goddess" and "Mother God". Independently of Christianity, I like the esthetics of Christian images (I think they're beautiful, except for the crucifixion ones). That same night I had a dream with Mary telling me "For the Left Hand Path if you want to worship the Mother Goddess it would be better for you to put the Indian Mother Goddess on your altar, with this symbol" (she shows me a black inverted pentacle she's holding with her hands). I asked "What Mother Goddess? Durga?" and she tells me "yes or Kali, even better". Problem is, I hate Indian esthetics, LOL! (sorry for Indians reading this, no offense, it's just a matter of taste).

 

[SabahTheLoner]

I can't say for Theistic Satanism but LaVeyan Satanism lists Shiva and Kali as "Infernal names". They are used in ritual for shock value and psychodrama. Since Shiva is the destroyer, and Kali his daughter, they can be used in destruction rituals in the LaVeyan system. LaVey is infamous for using symbols condemned by the (Prodominately Catholic) Christian church and embracing it to mock them.

From what I understand, Shiva also represents many of the same things Satan does. Kali, being his daughter, would be a feminine extension of that. Western LHPers utilize as many LHP symbols as they can, even from other cultures.

 

[Liu]

Kālī is the spouse of Shiva, or sometimes his feminine aspect, but not his daughter (or at least I never heard of that).

I think the two have a place in Satanism in the same manner as any other deity. The fact that they are relatively "dark" certainly helps, though.

Personally, I equate them with what I consider two main aspects of Satan - consciousness (Shiva) and nature (Shakti/Kālī). That's based on an afaik not uncommon Hinduistic interpretation of them.

Regarding ego-destruction - it varies depending on what you mean by it.
I have heard it being used by also many western LHPers as a spiritual goal of them. But the ego is then normally considered not the true self or consciousness, but superficial constructs caused by society and up-bringing. In that way, ego-destruction is basically the same as self-actualization.

I can't tell in what way Hindu RHPers or LHPers understand ego-destruction or understood it in the past. I have done some reading on the latter, but found not much clear information yet.

But many Hindu LHPers are Shaivas, which often means that they believe ātman (i.e. their own consciousness) to be identical with Shiva (or Brahman or however you wanna call it). How could one merge if one already is one?

 

[Liu]

Kālī is the spouse of Shiva, or sometimes his feminine aspect, but not his daughter (or at least I never heard of that).

I think the two have a place in Satanism in the same manner as any other deity. The fact that they are relatively "dark" certainly helps, though.

Personally, I equate them with what I consider two main aspects of Satan - consciousness (Shiva) and nature (Shakti/Kālī). That's based on an afaik not uncommon Hinduistic interpretation of them.

Regarding ego-destruction - it varies depending on what you mean by it.
I have heard it being used by also many western LHPers as a spiritual goal of them. But the ego is then normally considered not the true self or consciousness, but superficial constructs caused by society and up-bringing. In that way, ego-destruction is basically the same as self-actualization.

I can't tell in what way Hindu RHPers or LHPers understand ego-destruction or understood it in the past. I have done some reading on the latter, but found not much clear information yet.

But many Hindu LHPers are Shaivas, which often means that they believe ātman (i.e. their own consciousness) to be identical with Shiva (or Brahman or however you wanna call it). How could one merge if one already is one?

 

[Serpent Child]

I've noticed many Satanists equate Satan with Shiva and Shakti or Kali with her consort. But the LHP in India is more about destroying the ego and merging with Brahman (the goal of RHP) in non-orthodox ways or by methods not accepted by Indian Society; like eating meat or having gay sex, etc.

Isn't Satanism and the Western LHP's goal of self-deification about "the dominion of spirit over ego" with the difference that "spirit" or "true self" doesn't refer to God/Brahman but an independent being?

I once made the experiment of putting Jesus and Mary on my altar with a sign "Mother Goddess" and "Mother God". Independently of Christianity, I like the esthetics of Christian images (I think they're beautiful, except for the crucifixion ones). That same night I had a dream with Mary telling me "For the Left Hand Path if you want to worship the Mother Goddess it would be better for you to put the Indian Mother Goddess on your altar, with this symbol" (she shows me a black inverted pentacle she's holding with her hands). I asked "What Mother Goddess? Durga?" and she tells me "yes or Kali, even better". Problem is, I hate Indian esthetics, LOL! (sorry for Indians reading this, no offense, it's just a matter of taste).

Lilith is one of Satan's wives, Lilith derives from Lalitha or Lalita whom is the divine mother in Hinduism. Kali and Durga are aspects of the divine mother.

"The reason for the Left Hand Path which is from Sanatana Dharma, its the name of Kundalini Yoga, the Left is Shakt the serpent energy. Is because the planet Venus is the only planet that rotates anti-clockwise to the left. The LHP is the path of Venus, Sanat Kumara. The pentagram is also the symbol of Venus the shape of the orbit of Venus and the five is a Venus number. This symbol of Venus would have 666 placed with it to show spiritual rebirth. Venus's number also connect to the sun. The ankh the symbol of spiritual rebirth is the symbol of Venus." - Satan Lucifer The Lord Of The World : JoyofSatan666

 

[Liu]

Lilith is one of Satan's wives, Lilith derives from Lalitha or Lalita whom is the divine mother in Hinduism. Kali and Durga are aspects of the divine mother.

Lalitha is one of the many female lovers of Krishna. Not really associated with mother deities.

Lalita ('she who plays') is actually one of the many deities that could be equated with Shakti, but I see no reason to assume an etymological connection to Lilith. The latter rather is from the Akkadian Lilītu, which is a group of female demons which at least in Hebrew mythology were associated with the night.

"The reason for the Left Hand Path which is from Sanatana Dharma, its the name of Kundalini Yoga, the Left is Shakt the serpent energy. Is because the planet Venus is the only planet that rotates anti-clockwise to the left. The LHP is the path of Venus, Sanat Kumara. The pentagram is also the symbol of Venus the shape of the orbit of Venus and the five is a Venus number. This symbol of Venus would have 666 placed with it to show spiritual rebirth. Venus's number also connect to the sun. The ankh the symbol of spiritual rebirth is the symbol of Venus."

- Satan Lucifer The Lord Of The World : JoyofSatan666

Historically wrong (kundalini yoga is also a part of the Indian RHP, as far as I know), but that anti-clockwise and the 5er metaphor (to which I would like to add that the orbits of Venus and Earth in correlation together actually look a bit like pentagrams) are actually of symbolic value. Just, that has nothing to do with Hinduism.
Kumara has several meanings, but I can find nothing that would relate it to Venus (it's for example an epithet of Agni and of Skanda (both are male deities), and the name of 4 saints of orthodox Hinduism).

Would it be too much to ask that you make a short fact-check before posting?

 

[EtuMalku]

I've noticed many Satanists equate Satan with Shiva and Shakti or Kali with her consort. But the LHP in India is more about destroying the ego and merging with Brahman (the goal of RHP) in non-orthodox ways or by methods not accepted by Indian Society; like eating meat or having gay sex, etc.

Isn't Satanism and the Western LHP's goal of self-deification about "the dominion of spirit over ego" with the difference that "spirit" or "true self" doesn't refer to God/Brahman but an independent being?

I think you hit the nail on the head here . . . the Eastern LHP of Hinduism is still what we consider a RHP as there remains a merging with Brahman of some sort.

This Eastern LHP integrates the ego / psyche / soul etc. into something divine through acts of heterodoxy. In this respect Eastern Left & Right paths of Hindu traditions seek the same results but through different practices / means.

While in Western LHP traditions there is no integration into the divine, in fact there is separation from anything perceived as such and the strengthening of one's isolate intelligence.

Transcending the ego is not the same as destroying the ego. ELHP seeks to transcend ego but retain ego while WLHP destroys the ego in a process of internal alchemy in order to rebuild a new one.

 

[agorman]

Transcending the ego is not the same as destroying the ego. ELHP seeks to transcend ego but retain ego while WLHP destroys the ego in a process of internal alchemy in order to rebuild a new one.

Is it really to "rebuild" a new ego or to reveal or free the true, eternal ego? As getting out the layers of something to reveal its core. And by eternal ego I don't mean a universal one like Brahman, but an eternal individual.

 

[Kapalika]

I'm getting tired of these posts and topics/threads bashing the ORIGINAL Left Hand Path.

Anyways I'm a practicing Satanist and LHP Tantra. As far as I am aware I'm really about the only one that takes that association seriously as a core component of my beliefs. I've never run across another Satanist-Hindu other than some blog I came across many years ago but they were much more Vedic. And I'm fairly certain I'm the only one on the forums that does so explicitly and consistently in any serious manner consistently and clearly doing this type of thing.

But maybe I'm wrong, I know @Liu has an interest in LHP Dharma paths but it seems more of a scholarly interest. He can correct me if I'm wrong.

However in advance I want to say that if I seem somewhat hostile it's because this is essentially an attack on the validity of my religion and not really anyone else's with that all in mind in a DIR... @EtuMalku can correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure he's not even a Satanist and @agorman has explored Satanism before but I've not seen much stating or indicating he does practice Satanism. That makes the responses so far unsettling to me.

I've noticed many Satanists equate Satan with Shiva and Shakti or Kali with her consort. But the LHP in India is more about destroying the ego and merging with Brahman (the goal of RHP) in non-orthodox ways or by methods not accepted by Indian Society; like eating meat or having gay sex, etc

This isn't true. There isn't any merging and the ego destruction is about shattering illusions which is in Shiva's domain. Satan shares this too... need we remember that the Serpent broke Adam and Eve's imprisonment by destroying their ignorance? Likewise Shiva destroys our ignorance that chains us. It's harder to make them much similar in that respect.

Ego in the context of Hinduism is totally different from the go of western psychology. It's more of a matter of not having any word that translates the best.

Kālī is the spouse of Shiva, or sometimes his feminine aspect, but not his daughter (or at least I never heard of that).

I've never heard of her being his daughter either, although she's often depicted as his mother as well as consort.

I think the two have a place in Satanism in the same manner as any other deity. The fact that they are relatively "dark" certainly helps, though.

There are forms like Bhairava that are even darker. Particularly a lot of more obscure Tantric deities depicted doing all kinds of scary stuff. The Fierce deities.

Personally, I equate them with what I consider two main aspects of Satan - consciousness (Shiva) and nature (Shakti/Kālī). That's based on an afaik not uncommon Hinduistic interpretation of them.

This is actually very inline with Trika! Though I think Shiva is thought to be beyond Cit but it's very close none the less even for a lot of Hinduism to see the male and female in those roles.

I'd say you are spot on.

Regarding ego-destruction - it varies depending on what you mean by it.
I have heard it being used by also many western LHPers as a spiritual goal of them. But the ego is then normally considered not the true self or consciousness, but superficial constructs caused by society and up-bringing. In that way, ego-destruction is basically the same as self-actualization.

Yes. The ego is the illusion we create around ourselves. That self-actualization is our realization of selfhood which by nature was always divine... hence in Trika/Kashmir Shaivism the realization that one is Shiva.

I can't tell in what way Hindu RHPers or LHPers understand ego-destruction or understood it in the past. I have done some reading on the latter, but found not much clear information yet.

It's a can of worms at times. I think it's important though that the Freudian/western definition of ego is totally different from what it means in the context of Hinduism. I think that is where a lot of confusion and misunderstanding comes from.

But many Hindu LHPers are Shaivas, which often means that they believe ātman (i.e. their own consciousness) to be identical with Shiva (or Brahman or however you wanna call it). How could one merge if one already is one?

A good point, but bears mentioning this is true of nondual Shaiva Tantra. The more popular dualsitic Tantra that can be either LHP or RHP says that one realizes themselves as a distinct Shiva. In some ways this is just a subtle difference in that respect since in Kashmir Shaiva Tantra all the enlightened individuals are simultaneously nondual and still individualized.

But Trika, Kashmir Shaivism ect saw itself as being the next step after Shaiva Siddhanta so it makes sense it would be the more evolved and developed version.

I think you hit the nail on the head here . . . the Eastern LHP of Hinduism is still what we consider a RHP as there remains a merging with Brahman of some sort.

Take your misinformation elsewhere and stop attacking Vamachara, LHP-Tantra ect by saying crap like it's RHP. If anything the "Eastern LHP" is the real one and your version is an imperialistic, culturally misappropriated version. There is no "merging" you are what you are and it's that realization that brings power, insight and liberation.

We just happen to call that state Shiva.

This Eastern LHP integrates the ego / psyche / soul etc. into something divine through acts of heterodoxy. In this respect Eastern Left & Right paths of Hindu traditions seek the same results but through different practices / means.

It doesn't "integrate" anything. You consistently fail to understand the premise of Tantra let alone the Left Hand Path as it's been for centuries either dual or nondual. Again, one is who and what they are, it's about seeing reality as it truly is.

You are however correct in that the RHP seeks to see reality as it really is, however the LHP would disagree with a lot of the RHP and orthodox views on the nature of said reality. So in that sense it's very different.

In some ways those views of reality can be very transgressive to the orthodoxy.

Transcending the ego is not the same as destroying the ego. ELHP seeks to transcend ego but retain ego while WLHP destroys the ego in a process of internal alchemy in order to rebuild a new one.

Is that what you really think? It just sounds like self-image actualization to me. And I think you got those two mixed up in different aspects. But you probably have no interest in hearing a viewpoint outside of the dogma of your own order.[

 

[Kapalika]

Basically all the Satanists responding say "yes" and one non-Satanist and the OP say no. Neither of the "no's" as far as I can tell are Satanists. Add to that many other Satanists if not all the other ones I know on the forum have ever said it's inconsistent or "wrong" for me to do what I'm doing or even explicitly say it's totally fine. I even started a topic about the subject many months (or a year?) ago and not a single Satanist or Hindu said it was weird.

It seems consistently to be a flavor of Luciferians sometimes Setians that have consistently said otherwise. Like you ain't even either so who the hell are you to say we are not LHP?

"Eastern" LHP is the original LHP so how can we not be LHP?!

 

[EtuMalku]

I'm getting tired of these posts and topics/threads bashing the ORIGINAL Left Hand Path.

Anyways I'm a practicing Satanist and LHP Tantra. As far as I am aware I'm really about the only one that takes that association seriously as a core component of my beliefs. I've never run across another Satanist-Hindu other than some blog I came across many years ago but they were much more Vedic. And I'm fairly certain I'm the only one on the forums that does so explicitly and consistently in any serious manner consistently and clearly doing this type of thing.

But maybe I'm wrong, I know @Liu has an interest in LHP Dharma paths but it seems more of a scholarly interest. He can correct me if I'm wrong.

However in advance I want to say that if I seem somewhat hostile it's because this is essentially an attack on the validity of my religion and not really anyone else's with that all in mind in a DIR... @EtuMalku can correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure he's not even a Satanist and @agorman has explored Satanism before but I've not seen much stating or indicating he does practice Satanism. That makes the responses so far unsettling to me.



This isn't true. There isn't any merging and the ego destruction is about shattering illusions which is in Shiva's domain. Satan shares this too... need we remember that the Serpent broke Adam and Eve's imprisonment by destroying their ignorance? Likewise Shiva destroys our ignorance that chains us. It's harder to make them much similar in that respect.

Ego in the context of Hinduism is totally different from the go of western psychology. It's more of a matter of not having any word that translates the best.



I've never heard of her being his daughter either, although she's often depicted as his mother as well as consort.



There are forms like Bhairava that are even darker. Particularly a lot of more obscure Tantric deities depicted doing all kinds of scary stuff. The Fierce deities.



This is actually very inline with Trika! Though I think Shiva is thought to be beyond Cit but it's very close none the less even for a lot of Hinduism to see the male and female in those roles.

I'd say you are spot on.



Yes. The ego is the illusion we create around ourselves. That self-actualization is our realization of selfhood which by nature was always divine... hence in Trika/Kashmir Shaivism the realization that one is Shiva.



It's a can of worms at times. I think it's important though that the Freudian/western definition of ego is totally different from what it means in the context of Hinduism. I think that is where a lot of confusion and misunderstanding comes from.



A good point, but bears mentioning this is true of nondual Shaiva Tantra. The more popular dualsitic Tantra that can be either LHP or RHP says that one realizes themselves as a distinct Shiva. In some ways this is just a subtle difference in that respect since in Kashmir Shaiva Tantra all the enlightened individuals are simultaneously nondual and still individualized.

But Trika, Kashmir Shaivism ect saw itself as being the next step after Shaiva Siddhanta so it makes sense it would be the more evolved and developed version.



Take your misinformation elsewhere and stop attacking Vamachara, LHP-Tantra ect by saying crap like it's RHP. If anything the "Eastern LHP" is the real one and your version is an imperialistic, culturally misappropriated version. There is no "merging" you are what you are and it's that realization that brings power, insight and liberation.

We just happen to call that state Shiva.



It doesn't "integrate" anything. You consistently fail to understand the premise of Tantra let alone the Left Hand Path as it's been for centuries either dual or nondual. Again, one is who and what they are, it's about seeing reality as it truly is.

You are however correct in that the RHP seeks to see reality as it really is, however the LHP would disagree with a lot of the RHP and orthodox views on the nature of said reality. So in that sense it's very different.

In some ways those views of reality can be very transgressive to the orthodoxy.



Is that what you really think? It just sounds like self-image actualization to me. And I think you got those two mixed up in different aspects. But you probably have no interest in hearing a viewpoint outside of the dogma of your own order.[

You're not the first one to misunderstand a Path they believe they are on or to misapprpriate it in order to fulfill their desire to make things fit one's expected paradigm.

It would seem that many of us see little if no distinction between the so called "eastern" and "western" Left Hand Path, while others see them as totally different.

Historically the term Left Hand Path fell into one of 5 categories:

Original Left Hand Path, usually Tantric, from religions like Hinduism and Buddhism.

Referring to "black magic" or "bad" or failed" practitioners. Used by people like Blavatsky and Crowley.

To refer to hedonistic/egotistical philosophies with moral relativism (such as LaVeyan Satanism).

Used by western occult groups like the Typhonian Order who used the term in a way pretty close to #1.

In 1992 the book "Lords of the Left Hand Path" was written using a much newer definition of the term making a fifth designation.

The Eastern Left Hand Path follow the idea that all which exists is sacred (Pantheism), including things that are traditionally impure. All that exists becomes integrated, because all that exists for them is God / Absolute. The Western Left Hand Path does not integrate, but rather separates our individual essence from all that exists.

Essentially, the LHP of the East differs from the Western ideal through its connection with something divine. Although the Eastern LHP clearly, if perhaps convoluted, separates one's essence from the Objective Universe / Absolute it however does this in order for the adherent to remain in the company of the Beloved, this is where East and West differ.

Earlier WLHP versions seem to flounder between East and West and it is not until the Temple of Set's usage of the term by Dr. Michael Aquino and found in Dr. Stephen Flowers' "Lords of the Left Hand Path" do we find the most extreme Western Left Hand Path excellently outlined by Priest James Kirby:

"The Left-Hand Path (LHP) involves the conscious attempt to preserve and strengthen one’s isolate, psychecentric existence against the OU (Objective Universe) while creating, apprehending, comprehending, and influencing a varying number of SU's (Subjective Universe)."

"The Right Hand Path (RHP) involves the intentional effort to dissolve or merge the self into the OU."

 

[Liu]

I'm getting tired of these posts and topics/threads bashing the ORIGINAL Left Hand Path.

Anyways I'm a practicing Satanist and LHP Tantra. As far as I am aware I'm really about the only one that takes that association seriously as a core component of my beliefs. I've never run across another Satanist-Hindu other than some blog I came across many years ago but they were much more Vedic. And I'm fairly certain I'm the only one on the forums that does so explicitly and consistently in any serious manner consistently and clearly doing this type of thing.

But maybe I'm wrong, I know @Liu has an interest in LHP Dharma paths but it seems more of a scholarly interest. He can correct me if I'm wrong.

However in advance I want to say that if I seem somewhat hostile it's because this is essentially an attack on the validity of my religion and not really anyone else's with that all in mind in a DIR... @EtuMalku can correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure he's not even a Satanist and @agorman has explored Satanism before but I've not seen much stating or indicating he does practice Satanism. That makes the responses so far unsettling to me.



This isn't true. There isn't any merging and the ego destruction is about shattering illusions which is in Shiva's domain. Satan shares this too... need we remember that the Serpent broke Adam and Eve's imprisonment by destroying their ignorance? Likewise Shiva destroys our ignorance that chains us. It's harder to make them much similar in that respect.

Ego in the context of Hinduism is totally different from the go of western psychology. It's more of a matter of not having any word that translates the best.



I've never heard of her being his daughter either, although she's often depicted as his mother as well as consort.



There are forms like Bhairava that are even darker. Particularly a lot of more obscure Tantric deities depicted doing all kinds of scary stuff. The Fierce deities.



This is actually very inline with Trika! Though I think Shiva is thought to be beyond Cit but it's very close none the less even for a lot of Hinduism to see the male and female in those roles.

I'd say you are spot on.



Yes. The ego is the illusion we create around ourselves. That self-actualization is our realization of selfhood which by nature was always divine... hence in Trika/Kashmir Shaivism the realization that one is Shiva.



It's a can of worms at times. I think it's important though that the Freudian/western definition of ego is totally different from what it means in the context of Hinduism. I think that is where a lot of confusion and misunderstanding comes from.



A good point, but bears mentioning this is true of nondual Shaiva Tantra. The more popular dualsitic Tantra that can be either LHP or RHP says that one realizes themselves as a distinct Shiva. In some ways this is just a subtle difference in that respect since in Kashmir Shaiva Tantra all the enlightened individuals are simultaneously nondual and still individualized.

But Trika, Kashmir Shaivism ect saw itself as being the next step after Shaiva Siddhanta so it makes sense it would be the more evolved and developed version.



Take your misinformation elsewhere and stop attacking Vamachara, LHP-Tantra ect by saying crap like it's RHP. If anything the "Eastern LHP" is the real one and your version is an imperialistic, culturally misappropriated version. There is no "merging" you are what you are and it's that realization that brings power, insight and liberation.

We just happen to call that state Shiva.



It doesn't "integrate" anything. You consistently fail to understand the premise of Tantra let alone the Left Hand Path as it's been for centuries either dual or nondual. Again, one is who and what they are, it's about seeing reality as it truly is.

You are however correct in that the RHP seeks to see reality as it really is, however the LHP would disagree with a lot of the RHP and orthodox views on the nature of said reality. So in that sense it's very different.

In some ways those views of reality can be very transgressive to the orthodoxy.



Is that what you really think? It just sounds like self-image actualization to me. And I think you got those two mixed up in different aspects. But you probably have no interest in hearing a viewpoint outside of the dogma of your own order.[

Thank you. I had been hoping that you'd clarify things a bit. I'm a bit hesitant to make any universal statements about Hindu concepts since my knowledge on it is only book knowledge and Hinduism is very diverse, so who knows whether what I read can be generalized in any way. So, I'm relieved that I wasn't completely off the mark

In regards to your assumption on me, my interests are not only scholarly. Or rather, my scholarly approach is based on deeper interests. While I don't intend to bind myself too much to the Hindu approach of the LHP, especially since it's a very foreign culture and I'd have to learn pretty much every term anew to really get into it, it's among those spiritual systems in which I see most similarities to my own beliefs, and therefore can also take much in terms of inspiration from.

About consciousness/cit - I don't remember having encountered any proper definition/explanation of cit, but I assumed it to be more or less the same as what I call consciousness. However, by consciousness I mean pure, attributeless, empty awareness, without the mind of which awareness is aware. Basically only the watcher itself. What would be beyond that?

The Eastern Left Hand Path follow the idea that all which exists is sacred (Pantheism), including things that are traditionally impure. All that exists becomes integrated, because all that exists for them is God / Absolute. The Western Left Hand Path does not integrate, but rather separates our individual essence from all that exists.

Essentially, the LHP of the East differs from the Western ideal through its connection with something divine. Although the Eastern LHP clearly, if perhaps convoluted, separates one's essence from the Objective Universe / Absolute it however does this in order for the adherent to remain in the company of the Beloved, this is where East and West differ.

This applies to your, Aquino's etc. "ideal" of the LHP, but not necessarily to other western LHPs.
A lot of theistic Satanists would certainly subcribe to it that they act "in order [...] to remain in the company of the Beloved".
Me as a pantheistic Satanist (and well, I'm not the only one such I've encountered so far, but we seem to be a bit rare, at least on this forum here), I don't believe there to be anything beyond the divine either.
And many gnostic LHPers even strive for complete merge/annihilation of the self into the divine, but I've never heard anyone claim they wouldn't be true LHPers.

What you call "integrating" sounds like a pretty useful and commonly used tool among any LHPers. How would you separate your essence, whatever that's even supposed to be (your consciousness? your character? your subconscious?), if not first by doing some serious soul-searching to find what it actually is what makes you you? And how to do that any better than by a combination of purging your concept of self from external influences and integrating into your concept of self those parts of your essence which you previously thought of as impure in whatever sense?

I can't tell beforehand whether this search for one's essence, if done thouroughly, will lead to the discovery of something that can be separated or to the discovery that there is no such thing due to all being one. The latter version makes more sense to me on metaphysical grounds, but I'm an agnostic.
But whatever lies at the end, it seems like a worthwhile journey as is.

I think some misunderstandings here might come from the fact that your worldview distinguishes between objective and subjective universe, treating them as metaphysically distinct.

 

[EtuMalku]

This applies to your, Aquino's etc. "ideal" of the LHP, but not necessarily to other western LHPs.
A lot of theistic Satanists would certainly subcribe to it that they act "in order [...] to remain in the company of the Beloved".
Me as a pantheistic Satanist (and well, I'm not the only one such I've encountered so far, but we seem to be a bit rare, at least on this forum here), I don't believe there to be anything beyond the divine either.
And many gnostic LHPers even strive for complete merge/annihilation of the self into the divine, but I've never heard anyone claim they wouldn't be true LHPers.

I can agree that not everyone that refers to themself as LHP follows the tenets I put forward.

What you call "integrating" sounds like a pretty useful and commonly used tool among any LHPers. How would you separate your essence, whatever that's even supposed to be (your consciousness? your character? your subconscious?), if not first by doing some serious soul-searching to find what it actually is what makes you you? And how to do that any better than by a combination of purging your concept of self from external influences and integrating into your concept of self those parts of your essence which you previously thought of as impure in whatever sense?

I can't tell beforehand whether this search for one's essence, if done thouroughly, will lead to the discovery of something that can be separated or to the discovery that there is no such thing due to all being one. The latter version makes more sense to me on metaphysical grounds, but I'm an agnostic.
But whatever lies at the end, it seems like a worthwhile journey as is.

I think some misunderstandings here might come from the fact that your worldview distinguishes between objective and subjective universe, treating them as metaphysically distinct.

I wouldn't even begin to discuss this here, as this Work is sacred to the Herald of the Dawn.

 

[EtuMalku]

"In the first place, Tantra itself is not all “Left-Hand”; there are Right-Hand forms of Tantra, and it might sound odd to say so, but some of the most extreme forms of Saiva Tantra which look so sinister to Western eyes, with naked wandering ascetics covered in funereal ash and carrying tridents, lean more toward Right-Hand practice than Left-Hand."

"So in Tantra, unlike in satanism and Western Left-Hand occultism, morality grows from devotion rather than rationalizing what we already want to do, which brings Tantra — of either dextral orientation — into a stronger resemblance to the teachings of Jesus Christ than of Crowley or LaVey."

Satanism & Left-Hand Tantra

 

[Kapalika]

Okay, I'm tired of non-Satanists telling me I don't even know my own religion. This entire topic just looks like an attack on my beliefs specifically;

Find me someone else on the forums that's religion is at it's core Satanism and Shiva-Shakti based (Which is exactly what kashmir shaivism/trika) Tantra. You won't find anyone else, not a single person who's been active the entire time I've been here and probably never before either. The few Satanists who have spoke on it recognize the similarities but they just take a nod to it and they've almost always ever said anything because of something I said. And people have only started to bring up the topic over the last year or so because of my presence on the LHP DIR.

So with all that said... how is this topic not an attack on my beliefs specifically?

Questioning my authenticity either as a Satanist or Hindu and as someone who practices the Left Hand Path? Because it doesn't fit your preconceived notions? Do you know how insulting it is to hear this? To have people and it's ALWAYS someone who isn't a Satanist trying to tell me what my religion is and isn't.

I've practiced my religion for over half a decade now. I'm LHP, a Satanist and a Shaivite and that doesn't contradict. It is not anyone's place to tell me different.

And you know what? I don't care what sources you have as they are clearly trying to undermine the legitimacy of LHP Tantra and they are not authorities on the subject.

Until you have the background knowledge and experience, first hand working with other Tantrics, and have read many of the books on the subject, having learned from an initiated Tantric based in Nepal who also has extensive experience with western occultism, and so many other things I could list you can't compare to my knowledge on the subject.

Quite simply, I know my religion. You don't.

Also, compare my religion or deities to Jesus. I don't see how that isn't intended as an insult to rub salt in a wound of attacks on my beliefs.

 

[SomeRandom]

"In the first place, Tantra itself is not all “Left-Hand”; there are Right-Hand forms of Tantra, and it might sound odd to say so, but some of the most extreme forms of Saiva Tantra which look so sinister to Western eyes, with naked wandering ascetics covered in funereal ash and carrying tridents, lean more toward Right-Hand practice than Left-Hand."

Insofar as they do not partake in the material world I suppose? LHP and RHP are a bit fuzzy sometimes within a Hindu context because Hindus by nature "cross pollinate" often without even realizing it. Because that's just how they roll.

"So in Tantra, unlike in satanism and Western Left-Hand occultism, morality grows from devotion rather than rationalizing what we already want to do, which brings Tantra — of either dextral orientation — into a stronger resemblance to the teachings of Jesus Christ than of Crowley or LaVey."

"Morality" is already not really an easy to translate concept into or from Hinduism into a Western understanding, never mind the differing interpretations found in individual sects. Because "Morality" as understood in a broad general sense in Hinduism does not really grow from devotion. That's only a very specific aspect of one's life and how much it applies to an individual is dependent entirely on circumstance and how they view "morality" obviously. It's something a person has to experience for themselves. That can come from understanding their religious teachings, obviously. But morality, in the Hindu sense and I would think this includes Tantra is something that is more or less a living breathing concept. You can't really narrow it down to a specific concept where it emanates from. Because it is different for everyone, within reason.
So I don't know if it strongly resembles the teachings of Jesus, or Crowley. It would depend on how the individual practitioner sees it personally. (Others are free to correct me if I'm wrong. Which is inevitable for me. )
"Devotion" again that would probably depend on the sect of Shaktas/Saivates and even then, is more or less an individual interpretation.

 

[1137]

Simply put, the Eastern and Western LHP are not always contradictory. There are several groups in the east which do not seek disillusion of the Self, and several in the west with an interest in heterodoxy.

 

[Mrpasserby]

'That same night I had a dream with Mary telling me "For the Left Hand Path if you want to worship the Mother Goddess it would be better for you to put the Indian Mother Goddess on your altar, with this symbol" (she shows me a black inverted pentacle she's holding with her hands). I asked "What Mother Goddess? Durga?" and she tells me "yes or Kali, even better". Problem is, I hate Indian esthetics, LOL! (sorry for Indians reading this, no offense, it's just a matter of taste).'

Agorman, I can relate to your dream about , Mary and Durga or Kali. I hadn't thought about it for many decades, until you mentioned having a dream that was similar to my own experience.
I had asked one of my Spirit guides for a little help because I was nervous about some pressing dualities. He offered to have a female Spirit friend of his pop over and grant me the help that I needed. When the Spirit showed up dressed as a Indian Goddess, I was so flabbergasted to see a lady Spirit (not dressed like a nun or the virgin Mary, catholic background) I didn't even ask her name.
So thanks to you post I will consider that it was the Spirit of Durga or Kali.

 

[EtuMalku]

Okay, I'm tired of non-Satanists telling me I don't even know my own religion. This entire topic just looks like an attack on my beliefs specifically;

Find me someone else on the forums that's religion is at it's core Satanism and Shiva-Shakti based (Which is exactly what kashmir shaivism/trika) Tantra. You won't find anyone else, not a single person who's been active the entire time I've been here and probably never before either. The few Satanists who have spoke on it recognize the similarities but they just take a nod to it and they've almost always ever said anything because of something I said. And people have only started to bring up the topic over the last year or so because of my presence on the LHP DIR.

So with all that said... how is this topic not an attack on my beliefs specifically?

Questioning my authenticity either as a Satanist or Hindu and as someone who practices the Left Hand Path? Because it doesn't fit your preconceived notions? Do you know how insulting it is to hear this? To have people and it's ALWAYS someone who isn't a Satanist trying to tell me what my religion is and isn't.

I've practiced my religion for over half a decade now. I'm LHP, a Satanist and a Shaivite and that doesn't contradict. It is not anyone's place to tell me different.

And you know what? I don't care what sources you have as they are clearly trying to undermine the legitimacy of LHP Tantra and they are not authorities on the subject.

Until you have the background knowledge and experience, first hand working with other Tantrics, and have read many of the books on the subject, having learned from an initiated Tantric based in Nepal who also has extensive experience with western occultism, and so many other things I could list you can't compare to my knowledge on the subject.

Quite simply, I know my religion. You don't.

Also, compare my religion or deities to Jesus. I don't see how that isn't intended as an insult to rub salt in a wound of attacks on my beliefs.

This is a discussion board, it can be used to great affect as a platform for you to provide information, evidence and theory to your claims and beliefs. Instead of whimpering about being 'attacked', induce some of that Satanic Saivism in yourself and shut people up.

 

[Liu]

I wouldn't even begin to discuss this here, as this Work is sacred to the Herald of the Dawn.

Okay, that's understandable. Although it would have been helpful for the purpose of some clarifications.

Just, not meaning to offend, but I could now as well say, "What, you have something you consider sacred? That's not LHP". Just as an example of how much all this depends on interpretation and definition and is in risk of misunderstandings.

So with all that said... how is this topic not an attack on my beliefs specifically?

I doubt the OP intended it as such, but I see how some of the replies would give off this impression.
But, topics discussing (and often debating) the different definitions of what is LHP and what isn't seem to pop up time and time again, oftentimes without even getting into the Indian origins much.
I have encountered lots of definitions (especially by Setians as well) by which also my form of Satanism wouldn't be LHP (since I make no difference between subjective and objective universe, since I pray and do other devotional things, etc.). It's not their LHP, but it can as well be ours.

Actually, I've recently read a book on some of the sutras of tantra, and one point it mentioned about Kaulas is that they should avoid discussing their beliefs with others since it would only lead to misunderstanding and drama. Not that I'd completely subscribe to that, and I certainly don't want you to leave (on the contrary), just keep in mind, a lot of people will think differently than you and it might not be always worth the effort to point out their mistakes to them.