Do the gods have much influence in the physical realm?

[Araceli Cianna]

I was raised Christian and was always told that God had absolute power over the physical realm as he created it. I never saw evidence of this which is one reason I became polytheistic. Now I'm wondering if the gods are limited much like us, in that they don't have much influence over the physical realm as much as we don't have much influence over the spiritual realm? Or maybe they have some kind of law that prevents them from majorly interfering? Or maybe they are just not bothered? I worship Diana and some other deities but the most they seem able to do is give guidance, rather than interfering directly? Maybe it costs them too much energy or something to interfere directly and only do so when it's important? What do you think?

 

[1137]

The gods do not seem to directly interact with the material world, as they themselves seem strictly immaterial.

 

[Quintessence]

I find this to be an odd question. The gods are the physical realm (and all other realms too). They "interfere" in as much as everything you are and do is bound and limited by the nature of reality (aka, the gods), but I wouldn't use that word for it.

 

[Araceli Cianna]

I find this to be an odd question. The gods are the physical realm (and all other realms too). They "interfere" in as much as everything you are and do is bound and limited by the nature of reality (aka, the gods), but I wouldn't use that word for it.

I don't really take that view, I tend to think the gods separate from nature, as individual beings like you or I. Hard polytheism. Are you coming from a pantheistic point of view?

 

[1137]

I can see how some deities can be associated with matter. Like Horus the Elder, whom is identical with the platonic "order" of the cosmos, or Khnum who is identical with biological predisposition itself. But I don't think these gods are necessarily conscious, willful, desirous, etc.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

for me, 'spirit' in immanent in the cosmos. I don't necessarily recognize 'gods,' but everything we perceive is/has spirit. Some spirits may extend beyond our 'reality' into the 'otherworlds,' but I'm not sure science will ever be able to demonstrate or measure that. Here within our cosmos, I think the spirits can, occasionally do things that don't follow the 'rules' we've identified for matter and energy--but that would be very rarely and very subtly...small miracles, 'coincidences' and so on.

 

[Quintessence]

I don't really take that view, I tend to think the gods separate from nature, as individual beings like you or I. Hard polytheism. Are you coming from a pantheistic point of view?

It's my understanding that polytheism doesn't put a wedge between gods and various aspects of the natural world. That idea of "creator/god" and "creation/nature" being two entirely different things was introduced by the Abrahamic traditions. Contemporary Pagans, for better or worse, occasionally continue to follow that modality. I wholeheartedly reject that, and it's my understanding that the essence of polytheism in general wholeheartedly rejects that narrative too. The Horae are the seasons, Mnemosyne is memory, Gaea is the earth, Phobos is fear, and so forth. That perspective doesn't preclude recognizing that all four of these things are very different from each other and are therefore individuals.

Thus, I find the question about intervention very strange. When the seasons change, that is the work of the Horae. When fear grips you, that is Phobos running through you. That's "intervention," always going on, all the time. I suppose I'm a bit confused.

 

[Araceli Cianna]

I can see how some deities can be associated with matter. Like Horus the Elder, whom is identical with the platonic "order" of the cosmos, or Khnum who is identical with biological predisposition itself. But I don't think these gods are necessarily conscious, willful, desirous, etc.

That's what I would think, that the gods that represent matter aren't necessarily conscious

 

[Araceli Cianna]

Here within our cosmos, I think the spirits can, occasionally do things that don't follow the 'rules' we've identified for matter and energy--but that would be very rarely and very subtly...small miracles, 'coincidences' and so on.

Yes that makes sense, it could be like this!

 

[Araceli Cianna]

It's my understanding that polytheism doesn't put a wedge between gods and various aspects of the natural world. That idea of "creator/god" and "creation/nature" being two entirely different things was introduced by the Abrahamic traditions. Contemporary Pagans, for better or worse, occasionally continue to follow that modality. I wholeheartedly reject that, and it's my understanding that the essence of polytheism in general wholeheartedly rejects that narrative too. The Horae are the seasons, Mnemosyne is memory, Gaea is the earth, Phobos is fear, and so forth. That perspective doesn't preclude recognizing that all four of these things are very different from each other and are therefore individuals.

Thus, I find the question about intervention very strange. When the seasons change, that is the work of the Horae. When fear grips you, that is Phobos running through you. That's "intervention," always going on, all the time. I suppose I'm a bit confused.

It's ok, I guess we are both confused! To me the idea that the gods are merely physical objects creates a lot of blur between different deities over the world that are meant to represent the same thing. Is the moon Selene? Thoth? Mano? Arianhrod? Are they all the same? How can they be? I feel this reduces them to an archetype. I feel that they may be represented with the symbolism of physical things and perhaps therefore have more influence over said things than other things, but I wouldn't equate them as being the same....

I think like @1137 said, I wouldn't really count the moon as a conscious entity, even if I accepted it was its own spirit, I couldn't say that spirit is the exact same as all the aforementioned deities.

 

[Quintessence]

It's ok, I guess we are both confused! To me the idea that the gods are merely physical objects creates a lot of blur between different deities over the world that are meant to represent the same thing. Is the moon Selene? Thoth? Mano? Arianhrod? Are they all the same? How can they be?

I see where you're coming from with this, and I don't have all the answers. It's been my observation that Pagan gods are, by and large, nature-based. By nature-based, I mean they very directly relate to forces of nature. To me, that translates to "the gods are nature" in essence, but one does have to be careful when it comes to things you bring up here. I definitely do not regard all of these things as interchangeable, based on experiences I've had. This isn't something I've had to articulate in quite some time, so thanks for giving me something to think about.

After trying a few times to articulate some things just now, I have to shrug and let the thoughts churn for a while. It's not coming out right.

But I suppose I can say that in no way do I consider 'consciousness' an important aspect for... well... anything, gods or otherwise. I kind of hate that word, actually... haha.

 

[1137]

That's what I would think, that the gods that represent matter aren't necessarily conscious

Exactly. They're kinda sorta gods (like I associate Horus the Elder/Order with the capital G "creator" God people speak of), but at the same time not really worth calling that. We can't appeal to them, their behavior isn't conscious or will full. But beings like Thoth (knowledge) or Ra (creativity) are inherently aware, have abstract thought, etc.

 

[Brian daniel mcmahon]

hell yea gods are physical the only religion that believes there god is a spirit is the christian religion mars will kick spirit b u t s now lets talk about spirit guides lesser spirits can be the cone of power and the dead im sorry for the christians

 

[Hildeburh]

I was raised Christian and was always told that God had absolute power over the physical realm as he created it. I never saw evidence of this which is one reason I became polytheistic. Now I'm wondering if the gods are limited much like us, in that they don't have much influence over the physical realm as much as we don't have much influence over the spiritual realm? Or maybe they have some kind of law that prevents them from majorly interfering? Or maybe they are just not bothered? I worship Diana and some other deities but the most they seem able to do is give guidance, rather than interfering directly? Maybe it costs them too much energy or something to interfere directly and only do so when it's important? What do you think?

I doubt most pagan societies recognised a spiritual/physical dicotomy, demi gods/esses, ancestors and gods/esses were sacrificed to and petitioned to for abundant harvests, good hunting, fair weather, protection in childbirth, success in love, strength in battle, cures for illness and invoked for protection against enemies. Clearly deities were/are seen as intervening in and possessing abilities to influence both the natural world and affect human lives.

If you read world mythology there are many instances of gods interfering in and/or intervening in human affairs. Diana was a multifaceted goddess, considered a protector of the lower classes and in Rome slaves were given sanctuary in her temples. Diana was widely petitioned for sucess in childbirth and hunting, obviously her dedicants believed she could influence their lives.

Why don't you think your gods/esses influence your life directly? Maybe you have not built your relationship sufficiently with them yet. Or are petitioning for assistance in areas they believe you can help yourself.............just some thoughts.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yes, of course. They are the pillars of reality in my theology. There is nothing they don't influence in our realm, as they are the underlying spiritual reality of things. We are at their mercy but we make our own choices as to how we conduct ourselves in the situations we find ourselves in. I don't understand the view that the gods don't interact with our plane.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Now I'm wondering if the gods are limited much like us, in that they don't have much influence over the physical realm as much as we don't have much influence over the spiritual realm? Or maybe they have some kind of law that prevents them from majorly interfering? Or maybe they are just not bothered?

We have both kind of Gods (Goddesses are always involved with worldly life), involved and non-involved. Most Gods do care about us (they are known as 'Saguna', having attributes). Only Brahman (taken without any attributes - 'Nirguna') is never involved. The job of awarding punishment or reward depending on one's deeds 'kamas' belong to Shani (Saturn) and Yama. Brahma is the God responsible for writing the fate of a person. This action is not random. It is influenced by the deeds of that person.

 

[Bear Wild]

We have both kind of Gods (Goddesses are always involved with worldly life), involved and non-involved. Most Gods do care about us (they are known as 'Saguna', having attributes). Only Brahman (taken without any attributes - 'Nirguna') is never involved. The job of awarding punishment or reward depending on one's deeds 'kamas' belong to Shani (Saturn) and Yama. Brahma is the God responsible for writing the fate of a person. This action is not random. It is influenced by the deeds of that person.

I really appreciate the insight from the Hindu view. Personally I do not see why the gods or goddess would take notice of what we do or do not do but I see them much more as Natural aspects of our world than human like. Just like I find symbolic aspects of Spirit animals as helpful in appreciating our world but I cannot see a spirit animal of the Fox helping a human that has hunted and exterminated so many as well as destroying their habitat. Interesting that it is the female aspect in Norse religion associated with the fate of individuals as well as females associated with divination and knowing the future.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

I cannot see a spirit animal of the Fox helping a human that has hunted and exterminated so many as well as destroying their habitat.

We are kinfolk with the other-than-human persons in our world, and as such, we are to have proper respectful relationships...even if we fail to always be respectful in our relationships, it doesn't mean that our kin will be as faithless to our relations as we sometimes (maybe oftentimes) are.

Certainly, spirits have an interest in getting us to return to better relationships with them, and our material kinfolk.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I really appreciate the insight from the Hindu view. Personally I do not see why the gods or goddess would take notice of what we do or do not do but I see them much more as Natural aspects of our world than human like. Just like I find symbolic aspects of Spirit animals as helpful in appreciating our world but I cannot see a spirit animal of the Fox helping a human that has hunted and exterminated so many as well as destroying their habitat. Interesting that it is the female aspect in Norse religion associated with the fate of individuals as well as females associated with divination and knowing the future.

I would say the deities are bound by the deeds of a person. If the deeds are evil, then Gods can't do much. The person has to endure the punishment caused by his/her own deeds. That is why 'karmas' (actions, deeds) are most important, more important than worship in Hinduism. Hinduism is a sort of fair pagan religion. Not much scope for forgiveness. Belief in Gods cannot mitigate evil deeds. The person should own up his deeds and go through the punishment (but then, eternal hell is reserved for just a few categories of crime, not on belief ).

 

[Bear Wild]

We are kinfolk with the other-than-human persons in our world, and as such, we are to have proper respectful relationships...even if we fail to always be respectful in our relationships, it doesn't mean that our kin will be as faithless to our relations as we sometimes (maybe oftentimes) are.

Certainly, spirits have an interest in getting us to return to better relationships with them, and our material kinfolk.

I completely agree with you and I guess I was reacting to some of the new psychologist use of spirit animals in techniques in there field. I see all living things as my relatives and do my best to remain respectful to all life. It is nice to know others have this respect also.