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Do theists disbelieve the same God as atheists? Topic open for everyone

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I can't speak for windwalker, and I can understand how you read his post as pejorative, but I expect he was trying to be more descriptive than critical in that post, along the same lines as gsa's post a bit later on that page. That is, it's just to say that western atheist tends to be a response to the most common Abrahamic monotheistic theologies since those are the most prevalent.
Several members expressed how they were reading what he was posting, and instead of responding with the sort of reinterpretation you gave here, he just doubled down, continued with the insulting rhetoric, and told the people who objected to it that they "just don't like what he has to say."

He had plenty of opportunity to take a less insulting approach if that was what he intended. He didn't take it.

It seems to me that both "sides" in this debate feel that the other side is sometimes prone to broad-brush caricatures, and get irritated by that.
I don't.

I don't think there's anything particularly inherent in any of the belief systems presented here that demands broad-brush caricatures of atheists; I was just responding to them as they came up in the thread.

I have no doubt that atheists run into very shallow stereotypes all the time, speaking with religious people. I've witnessed plenty of it firsthand, and I'm sympathetic. It is possible that sometimes both theists and atheists are presented with caricatures of their views by others, whether intended maliciously or not. I think dialogue between religious worldviews and atheistic worldviews is important and necessary, not least because I think religion needs the criticism that it receives, if I also believe that theistic traditions have some element of wisdom to offer the modern secular world. I hope it's possible to talk about those topics in a productive way. I think there have probably been comments on both sides of the debate in this thread that serve to create more heat than light, or that seem to exhibit more of the baggage of the poster's past experiences than a direct reaction to the thread, but I also think this is somewhat inevitable. I think it would be unfortunate if the conversation devolved into an attempt to place blame or accusers others of bad faith. I hope we can all try to hear what the others are saying in the assumption of the best possible intentions, that we are all motivated by similar concerns, at a general level, about understanding the world and ourselves.
I've tried to listen to people in these sorts of conversations, but it just gets frustrating when someone tells me that they believe in God, I ask them what they mean by "God", they give some incoherent reply, and then they get all upset as if their inability express themselves is my fault. It gets old.
 

Looncall

Well-Known Member
Well, if they are denying that he experiences what he experiences, then yes, they are factually wrong.

It looks to me that the problem is that, while the mystic no doubt has the experiences he/she describes, the mystic does not provide justification for claiming that the experience comes from outside his/her own head.

The fact that some experience feels like it comes from something transcendent is not evidence that it actually does.The observation that many mystics have similar experiences doesn't work either, since they are all humans and share the same biology. Indeed, I don't see how the reality of something transcendent could ever be demonstrated from personal experience alone.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Ah - so because it was a broad-brush caricature of an entire group to which I belong and not a special insult only for me, I shouldn't be offended by it. :rolleyes:
I am not insulting atheism. I am an atheist, according to your own definitions. Where have I ever said, "Atheist has it's head up it's ***". Yet, this was said of me personally. Where have I ever said, "Atheism is full of baloney"? Yet this was such of me personally, by you. Where have ever said Atheism deliberately lying about things to confuse the discussion? Yet, this has been said of me personally.

What you are saying I am doing is completely fallacious. Now, if you consider that an insult, well, what can I say? I am left not challenging any POV you have. Why not just take responsibility here, and we can move on. Otherwise, I'm done with this part of this thread. There's no actual communication happening. I could just start reporting personal insults to the mods? Do you think you could report challenges to your views as a violation of forum rules?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I am not insulting atheism.
Sure you aren't.

I am an atheist, according to your own definitions.
Are you? 15 pages in and it's still not at all clear what you actually believe.

Where have I ever said, "Atheist has it's head up it's ***". Yet, this was said of me personally. Where have I ever said, "Atheism is full of baloney"? Yet this was such of me personally, by you.
I never said either of those things.

I never said anything like that "head up its ***" line, and it was your argument, not you or your beliefs, that I described as baloney... and only after you lowered the tone of our conversation with repeated insults.

Where have ever said Atheism deliberately lying about things to confuse the discussion? Yet, this has been said of me personally.
If it was, it wasn't by me.

What you are saying I am doing is completely fallacious.
What logical fallacy have I committed? Please be specific.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Fair enough, but I do think that these cultural words carry a lot of baggage, and that it might be better to be more creative with the language we use. Words like "Transcendent" and "Infinite" don't carry those obvious religious connotations.
This is in fact something I understand, and respect. I know words like God are baggage laden, but I personally have taken a stance to not let fundamentalists define the use of words. Like I've said elsewhere, someone doesn't have to use the word God to say the same things I'm pointing to. It's whatever they are comfortable with. But when I choose to use the word myself, I believe the context alone should indicate I'm not talking about the God that is the God that atheism in general, has a problem with. I share that same POV. I'm not critical of that. I agree with it. What I object to it blanket statements that that POV defines all POV. That's all I've been challenging in this thread.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Sure you aren't.
How, where, when. Be specific. Point to actual words, not just some sweeping statements "Everything you say insults me". Be specific.

Are you? 15 pages in and it's still not at all clear what you actually believe.
I've already stated it. Others get what I'm saying. You do not. This is why at the outset, I asked you for the parameters of what you think I should believe in, so I can address my response to your question. Obviously, you don't understand it in the terms I use. So let's go with my first suggestion which was intended to avoid all this.

I never said either of those things.
You have been personally insulting of me on a lot of your replies. If you wish, I could make a montage of them for you, but I'd prefer to just make note of it for your reference to self-monitor a little, and then move past this to actual discussion - something I have only wanted from the outset. Intelligent discussion, not rhetoric. There is no rhetoric in what I say. None. I support each point I make with reason.

I never said anything like that "head up its ***" line, and it was your argument, not you or your beliefs, that I described as baloney... and only after you lowered the tone of our conversation with repeated insults.
ItiOj did in post number 3, which I referenced in post number 4. It was later edited after I complained about the foul nature of that. I thanked him for the removal. I did not say you have said all these things, but there's a string of insults at me personally throughout this thread by others in the discussion. Why is that? That was my point in bringing it up.

If it was, it wasn't by me.
Never said it was.

What logical fallacy have I committed? Please be specific.
It was in the sentence itself, that you consider my criticisms of what many within atheism doing as "an insult to atheism". That's fallacious.

Now, can we just move on and I'll let these remarks against me personally slide?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
This is in fact something I understand, and respect. I know words like God are baggage laden, but I personally have taken a stance to not let fundamentalists define the use of words.
... or dictionaries, apparently.

Like I've said elsewhere, someone doesn't have to use the word God to say the same things I'm pointing to. It's whatever they are comfortable with. But when I choose to use the word myself, I believe the context alone should indicate I'm not talking about the God that is the God that atheism in general, has a problem with. I share that same POV. I'm not critical of that. I agree with it. What I object to it blanket statements that that POV defines all POV. That's all I've been challenging in this thread.
So... you're closed-minded to definitions of "god" that exclude what you consider "god"?
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So... you're closed-minded to definitions of "god" that exclude what you consider "god"?
Not at all. I fully strive to understand how others who use the term God differently than I do think about it. I'm not closed minded to seeing God in anthropomorphic terms, for instance. It makes sense to them and consistently fits the worldview they inhabit. It is a legitimate way to think about things within their context. It just doesn't make sense in the way I see the world to see God in those terms within my contexts. That doesn't make me closed-minded about it by any means.

Where someone becomes "closed minded", is when they are unwilling to even attempt to see a POV from the other person's perspective, resisting it, fighting against it, denying any validity to it, and even attacking those who hold it, and so forth. That's what being closed-minded is, not simply not sharing in a POV. Being open-minded on the other hand listens and considers the legitimacy of another point of view, tries to see if they can find value in it, weighs both the pros and cons, and sees if it makes sense to the other person, and if not even to themselves. Even if you don't agree with a conclusion, you in fact went through a process of genuine inquiry. Being open-minded makes you an explorer. Being closed-mind makes you "right" and the other wrong. Closed-mind starts with the answer and rejects whatever doesn't fit within it. That doesn't describe me.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Not at all. I fully strive to understand how others who use the term God differently than I do think about it. I'm not closed minded to seeing God in anthropomorphic terms, for instance. It makes sense to them and consistently fits the worldview they inhabit. It is a legitimate way to think about things within their context. It just doesn't make sense in the way I see the world to see God in those terms within my contexts. That doesn't make me closed-minded about it by any means.

Where someone becomes "closed minded", is when they are unwilling to even attempt to see a POV from the other person's perspective, resisting it, fighting against it, denying any validity to it, and even attacking those who hold it, and so forth. That's what being closed-minded is, not simply not sharing in a POV. Being open-minded on the other hand listens and considers the legitimacy of another point of view, tries to see if they can find value in it, weighs both the pros and cons, and sees if it makes sense to the other person, and if not even to themselves. Even if you don't agree with a conclusion, you in fact went through a process of genuine inquiry. Being open-minded makes you an explorer. Being closed-mind makes you "right" and the other wrong. Closed-mind starts with the answer and rejects whatever doesn't fit within it. That doesn't describe me.
Judging by your posts in this thread, it describes you to a T.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Judging by your posts in this thread, it describes you to a T.
Personal attack. It is attacking me personally as being a closed-minded person, which I am not. Even if I was, saying someone is "closed-minded" in response to an argument is not about the argument. It is an ad-hominem attack. It is an attack against them personally, in violation of forum rules.

I have done no such thing in response to you personally in this thread. I do not engage in this in discussion threads, nor debate topics. You have tipped your hand completely in this discussion as having nothing to offer by personal attacks. You have forfeited your position, whatever little that may have been at the outset.
 
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Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I will continue to respond to others in this thread, but I will no longer respond to those who need to stoop to personal attacks against me. This thread is not about defending myself as a person, and I refuse to continue to allow others to try to shift the focus off of valid points into something personal. Those who do so have nothing of substance to respond to for me.
 

Orbit

I'm a planet
Judging by your posts in this thread, it describes you to a T.
This is just unsubstantiated mudslinging. Are you incapable of addressing the issues without casting aspersions on the person? You have displayed the same behavior in another thread with me. When you run out of actual reasoned discussion points, you go after the person. I'm calling bull**** here, and as a mod you should know better.
 

Orbit

I'm a planet
Several members expressed how they were reading what he was posting, and instead of responding with the sort of reinterpretation you gave here, he just doubled down, continued with the insulting rhetoric, and told the people who objected to it that they "just don't like what he has to say."

He had plenty of opportunity to take a less insulting approach if that was what he intended. He didn't take it.


I don't.

I don't think there's anything particularly inherent in any of the belief systems presented here that demands broad-brush caricatures of atheists; I was just responding to them as they came up in the thread.


I've tried to listen to people in these sorts of conversations, but it just gets frustrating when someone tells me that they believe in God, I ask them what they mean by "God", they give some incoherent reply, and then they get all upset as if their inability express themselves is my fault. It gets old.
What insults? Please provide references.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It looks to me that the problem is that, while the mystic no doubt has the experiences he/she describes, the mystic does not provide justification for claiming that the experience comes from outside his/her own head.
This is something I hear people say a lot, and it always puzzles me. I for one have never claimed any mystical experience of my own proves it comes from "outside of me", that it proves there is some God "up there", in some realm of ghosts and angels and whatnot. Yet I seem to get the impression people think this is what is being claimed. Why is that?

The fact that some experience feels like it comes from something transcendent is not evidence that it actually does.
The only claim I would say is the experience is something transcendent in nature. That is not the same thing as saying it "comes from" something transcendent, as if it were outside of us. The statement that it transcendent in nature simply is in reference to the ordinary or mundane experience of the world. What we experience in every day life also comes from within us. It doesn't come from outside of us. It is an internal response to the world. So a transcendent experience is one that likewise is a response to the world, just of a transcendent nature as opposed to a typical average daily sort of response. It honestly all boils down to a change in perception of what is right there before us the whole time. And the response in accord with the type of awareness. It no more "comes from" outside than any other experience does.

Make sense?

The observation that many mystics have similar experiences doesn't work either, since they are all humans and share the same biology. Indeed, I don't see how the reality of something transcendent could ever be demonstrated from personal experience alone.
If you understand it as I just framed it, it really is nothing more than the type of experience that is being described. It is in fact a personal experience of the world. And that is true in any understanding of the world. The nature of reality itself is understood through everyone's personal experiences. The mystical experience allows the mystic to experience the world in a, well, "transcendent" light. It's not transcendent world "up there". It's basically exposing the world in from of you through heightened awareness.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
This is something I hear people say a lot, and it always puzzles me. I for one have never claimed any mystical experience of my own proves it comes from "outside of me", that it proves there is some God "up there", in some realm of ghosts and angels and whatnot. Yet I seem to get the impression people think this is what is being claimed. Why is that?
Because of the abrahamic God meme that has been indoctrinated into our culture, philosophy, media, and so on for hundreds of years. The alternative views have been suppressed by the church constantly (pantheism is a heresy in Catholicism). It's hard for people (it was for me) to break that wall that stops the mind seeing beyond the sticky memes.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Because of the abrahamic God meme that has been indoctrinated into our culture, philosophy, media, and so on for hundreds of years. The alternative views have been suppressed by the church constantly (pantheism is a heresy in Catholicism). It's hard for people (it was for me) to break that wall that stops the mind seeing beyond the sticky memes.
I think this kind of goes to my overall point, which was not meant as an "insult" to atheism, but a legitimate critique of it, and I say so from my own personal experience from within that as a self-identified atheist. What the critique is is that they are falling prey to the entire whole notion of God as wholly external to us. The mystic on the other hand is all about the God within, hence why things like pantheism and panenthiesm hold greater appeal because it reflects this "immanent" God within you and within the world, as opposed to the God "out there" up there in some wholly external domain.

The critique I make of the atheist approach is that it really is a continuation of the world of "reality" being gauged on a wholly external basis. I mean no offense when I point this out but the fact that I have heard many times this POV that the mystical experience is like some sort of bypass of science to tell us "secret" knowledge about reality "out there" as if it were looking at an objective truth shows that continuation of the basic, foundational framework. We have been trained to think this way and so it is natural to just continue that over. One of the many underlying assumptions we simply never stop to examine unless it's pointed out to us. It's not anyone fault, it's just what naturally happens.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
I think this kind of goes to my overall point, which was not meant as an "insult" to atheism, but a legitimate critique of it, and I say so from my own personal experience from within that as a self-identified atheist. What the critique is is that they are falling prey to the entire whole notion of God as wholly external to us. The mystic on the other hand is all about the God within, hence why things like pantheism and panenthiesm hold greater appeal because it reflects this "immanent" God within you and within the world, as opposed to the God "out there" up there in some wholly external domain.
Yup.

For some less than two thousand years, the ruling religion and church has dictated and owned the definition of the word God. It was defined, described, used only in the sense that was allowed to the dominating faith. The undercurrents of other heresies could never truly get a grip of taking part of the discussion without being declared heretic. Then science came into town, and today, the definition of God is not owned by the religions anymore, but by the atheists. Atheists are today the ones framing the question of what God is and if that God exists. Any alternative views are challenged as non-proper, which is quite degrading.

The critique I make of the atheist approach is that it really is a continuation of the world of "reality" being gauged on a wholly external basis. I mean no offense when I point this out but the fact that I have heard many times this POV that the mystical experience is like some sort of bypass of science to tell us "secret" knowledge about reality "out there" as if it were looking at an objective truth shows that continuation of the basic, foundational framework. We have been trained to think this way and so it is natural to just continue that over. One of the many underlying assumptions we simply never stop to examine unless it's pointed out to us. It's not anyone fault, it's just what naturally happens.
And because there's been one or another ruling philosophy framing the questions. It comes down to: Does God exist? Which God? The God that I can define in such a way that I can prove it doesn't exist. Therefore God doesn't exist.

The question for atheist should be "Does the external sentient miracle working God of the abrahamic religions exist?" Which makes it more clear what is being discussed and rejected.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Only if the other side is willing to entertain the proponent as they struggle to provide details they could have provided before putting forward a claim. No one is obligated to do so. If you wish to do so you are free to. I will wait until an actually coherent detailed argument is provided.
The problem is, when a pantheist propose their view of God, their definition of God is rejected, and they're told that the only definition of God that is allowed is the sentient external entity being God that both pantheists and atheists agree doesn't exist. If the definition is forced by the agnomist that gnomes only represent by green-hat sub-terran creatures, then it only proves the problem this thread is about. The atheist insists on that God is only defined in the way which the atheist and other non-theists don't believe in.

As per Dawkins hence why I do not consider his work as having any merit since he takse arguments from various groups of theists which at times are exclusive or not agreed upon. However this was not the example you provided.
Dawkins? I didn't bring Dawkins into the discussion. I respect him, and he has contributed a lot in my opinion. The example I provided was to show that both parties in a discussion assume that the other party agree on the same definition of God, when in reality, they can be miles apart without knowing it. I've been there so many times, to the point that I know I just can't jump in and tell people "God doesn't exist" without first knowing what God they specifically are thinking of.
 

lovemuffin

τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος
I've tried to listen to people in these sorts of conversations, but it just gets frustrating when someone tells me that they believe in God, I ask them what they mean by "God", they give some incoherent reply, and then they get all upset as if their inability express themselves is my fault. It gets old.

I wanted to try to respond a bit more to this, and by "this" I mean the general problem of definitions, or the attitude of skepticism towards approaches to the question about 'God' that deny the possibility of giving a conceptually univocal or comprehensive definition. It seems to me that there's a suspicion that this is more a matter of obfuscation or an attempt to avoid criticism on the part of theists than a defensible position or a reasonable approach (c.f. the entire discussion on agnomists). So I'd like to suggest an analogy, and I don't think it's perfect, and I'll point out some of the weak points, but maybe it's useful:

The analogy would compare theological conceptions of the Divine to the cosmological theory of dark matter. Conceptually, "dark matter" is hypothetical. We don't directly observe it, but we infer that there is something (which isn't necessarily even matter, i.e not necessarily a "thing") which explains the divergence between the predictions of our very well established models of gravity and our actual observations of gravitational effects in space. If you ask, "what is dark matter?" the answer will be that we don't know, but we infer certain things, because it must account for the gravitational effects. But if there's a discussion about whether not dark matter is a "thing" (i.e a previously unknown fundamental particle, say, or the product of an undiscovered force), or if you were to require a more concrete account in order to consider the possibility of a real referent of the term "dark matter", you'd be left frustrated.

Now the weakness of the analogy is that, whatever ultimately explains the problem which we refer to by speaking of dark matter, it will necessarily be modeled by physics using the same mathematical and theoretical techniques that are used throughout physics. We don't know what dark matter is, but there is not necessarily any question of the answer being unknowable. So it is not a perfect analogy for the intuition about the ineffable, the unknowable. But if you consider both science and theology, not as making proclamations of an absolute truth, but of conveying a human wisdom within their own limits (methodologically, epistemologically, and etc) there is still a parallel, if an inexact one. This is not an argument for the existence of God, it's an attempt to explain why some of us in this thread are offering descriptions of a divine dimension of reality, that we infer (conceptually) from experience, or from the universality of mystical tradition, and yet maintain that we do not know what "it" is. In the same way that "dark matter" is a phrase that refers more to a problematic, an unresolved question, than to something known in a definitive way, so I would say the word "God", in its broadest connotations, also refers to a human existential questioning, an intuition and experience which people have nearly universally felt compelled to question and seek an understanding of. The universality of certain "mystical" insights is not a proof of any specific theory about the nature of the divine, but it's compelling evidence at least that there is some human phenomena that is interesting.

What is the nature of the referent of the word? Is it a Supreme Being who creates the world out of nothing? Is it no more than a quirk of human neurology and a side-effect of evolution? I don't know. I can't prove it. It is a rationally defensible position to reject that it could have a referent of the first kind, or to reject any referent that transcends human subjectivity, but I think it's interesting that a more or less pure rationalism still is involved in the same kind of existential question. What is the highest principle of human experience? Or of life? The apotheosis of reason is a different kind of answer to the existential question that is bound up in the problem of "God", but it is related to the theistic modes at least insofar as they are considering a similar problem.

Following millennia of human wisdom I choose to refer to an element of my own experience, and of human experience which I hear those traditions speaking of, as "divine", and I use words like the Ineffable, or Infinite, or Spirit, or talk about an awareness that seems to transcend both the senses and pure reason, or I speak of love, compassion, fullness, or of Brahman, or Sunyata, or any of dozens of different (and mutually incompatible! at least as religious systems) symbols that try to speak to the experience. Ultimately, my argument for the value of this is not an objective demonstration of the truth of a particular conceptual model, but the value I find in it in my own life, which is not a question so much of knowledge as of fullness of life. But I don't go so far as to extrapolate from this that you cannot have a meaningful life as an atheist. It's not really an argument, it's an attempt to share, for whatever value there may be in it.
 
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