Do theists disbelieve the same God as atheists? Topic open for everyone

[Desert Snake]

The question posed in the OP : "Why don't you believe in god?" is a rather interesting one. I think it assumes that an atheist would answer along the lines of "Because God does bad things" and it presupposes a fundamentalist view of the Abrahamic gods is the thing that atheists are rejecting. I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, I don't believe in gods because I have never had a cause to believe in them in the first place. I have never had a hole in my life that needed to be filled with the supernatural. I have entertained the notion, but it never has held up to scrutiny. The universe just is. I don't need a preternatural being that just is to have created the universe. It has never been something I believed in.

Theists aren't necessarily 'looking' for deities, either. I think you have entertained an erroneous assumption/association, there.

 

[Bunyip]

Well both parties need to establish that they are discussing the same God, otherwise neither theism nor atheism are really meaningful.

 

[Zen Sensei]

Like if I were to say I am all religions, I am none? My hope is to maybe move ideas beyond black and white distinctions. It's not confusing to me from where I stand.

You have identified your religion as the same as gOd's. Care to elaborate and be more specific on identifying your religion? All religions are man made and traceable to it's founder or originator. Which religion did gOd adopt? Or did gOd made one up? Please clarify. Shalom.

 

[Willamena]

Well both parties need to establish that they are discussing the same God, otherwise neither theism nor atheism are really meaningful.

It's not always about discussion.

 

[Bunyip]

It's not always about discussion.

Any form of communication depends upon mutually understood terms. That is essentially what language is for.

 

[Zen Sensei]

Theists aren't necessarily 'looking' for deities, either. I think you have entertained an erroneous assumption/association, there.

Theist aren't necessarily "looking" for deities, but are glad they have found one they can enter act with. Like an invisible friend you used to have when you were a child and grew so comfortable and familiar with.

 

[ChristineES]

Well both parties need to establish that they are discussing the same God, otherwise neither theism nor atheism are really meaningful.

Does it matter if it's the same God? As far as I know, atheists don't believe in any God/gods, whether it be the God of Abraham, The God or gods of Hinduism, Zeus, and the Pagan gods and goddesses.

*A little side-note: Some disciples of Jesus/Yeshua I have known believe that if someone doesn't believe in who they call the one true God, that the person is an atheist. I am not sure I really understand that mindset, but it seems somewhat relevant to this discussion, but it has nothing to do with the quote, so I made into a side note.

 

[Bunyip]

Does it matter if it's the same God? As far as I know, atheists don't believe in any God/gods or any gods, whether it be the God of Abraham, The God or gods of Hinduism, Zeus, and the Pagan gods and goddesses.

*A little side-note: Some disciples of Jesus/Yeshua I have known believe that if someone doesn't believe in who they call the one true God, that the person is an atheist. I am not sure I really understand that mindset, but it seems somewhat relevant to this discussion, but it has nothing to do with the quote, so I made into a side note.

Well to me it matters a great deal, there are a bewildering array of very, very different concepts labelled 'god'. Don't you need to establish that you are both discussing the same thing?

 

[ChristineES]

Well to me it matters a great deal, there are a bewildering array of very, very different concepts labelled 'god'. Don't you need to establish that you are both discussing the same thing?

When I say "I believe in God", I mean the God of Abraham. If a Pagan says he or she believes in gods, they mean the pagan gods, etc. It is easy to tell which "God" a person is speaking of just by his or her faith. No, you would not be discussing the same thing with me(or another disciple of Jesus/Christian) than you would be if you were discussing it with a Hindu or a Pagan, but, to each person, their God is a true God or gods (goddesses). But the fact remains that an atheist does not believe in The God of Abraham, the gods and goddesses of pagans, etc. That part would be the same. It's only the teachings that are different, not the fact of some supreme being(s).

 

[Bunyip]

When I say "I believe in God", I mean the God of Abraham. If a Pagan says he or she believes in gods, they mean the pagan gods, etc. It is easy to tell which "God" a person is speaking of just by his or her faith.

Well yes of course - that is what I am suggesting. You do indeed need to identify the faith in question.

No, you would not be discussing the same thing with me(or another disciple of Jesus/Christian) than you would be if you were discussing it with a Hindu or a Pagan, but, to each person, their God is a true God or gods (goddesses).

Yes, agreed.

But the fact remains that an atheist does not believe in The God of Abraham, the gods and goddesses of pagans, etc. That part would be the same. It's only the teachings that are different, not the fact of some supreme being(s).

Well there are many things that people identify as gods that I do believe in, and so am not atheist towards. When I identify as atheist I mean Yahweh, Allah. As to other conceptions it certainly helps to specify. I'm not even sure that all faiths even claim that their Gods 'exist' in the same sense as others, or that their conception of God is at all at odds with my loss of faith as a Christian. The 'fact' of the supreme being is not in fact universal to all god conceptions - I'm surprised you would suggest otherwise.

 

[ChristineES]

Well yes of course - that is what I am suggesting. You do indeed need to identify the faith in question. Yes, agreed. Well there are many things that people identify as gods that I do believe in, and so am not atheist towards. When I identify as atheist I mean Yahweh, Allah. As to other conceptions it certainly helps to specify. I'm not even sure that all faiths even claim that their Gods 'exist' in the same sense as others, or that their conception of God is at all at odds with my loss of faith as a Christian. The 'fact' of the supreme being is not in fact universal to all god conceptions - I'm surprised you would suggest otherwise.

If you simply don't believe in The God of Abraham, yet believe in other gods, then, by the definition I use, you are NOT an atheist. Maybe it is not a "supreme being", but it is still a god, in my eyes. I used the term "supreme being" out of the lack of another term I could use.

 

[Bunyip]

If you simply don't believe in The God of Abraham, yet believe in other gods, then, by the definition I use, you are NOT an atheist. Maybe it is not a "supreme being", but it is still a god, in my eyes. I used the term "supreme being" out of the lack of another term I could use.

I didn't say that I believed in other gods, you must have misread. Whatever term by the way, not all conceptions of God have a supreme being - or even a being at all for that matter.

 

[ChristineES]

I didn't say that I believed in other gods, you must have misread. Whatever term by the way, not all conceptions of God have a supreme being - or even a being at all for that matter.

Yes, I said as much in my last response and you're correct, that gods are not always supreme beings. I am kind of confused by your debate, however. If you don't believe in any God whatsoever, then why would it matter which God/gods a person believed in?

 

[Bunyip]

Yes, I said as much in my last response and you're correct, that gods are not always supreme beings. I am kind of confused by your debate, however. If you don't believe in any God whatsoever, then why would it matter which God/gods a person believed in?

Because unless we are not talking about the same thing, we are not meaningfully communicating. Some people for another example believe that the Universe is God, I believe that the universe exists - I just don't call it God. So that particular conception of God is irrelevant to atheism.

 

[ChristineES]

Because unless we are not talking about the same thing, we are not meaningfully communicating. Some people for another example believe that the Universe is God, I believe that the universe exists - I just don't call it God. So that particular conception of God is irrelevant to atheism.

OK, I understand now. It isn't what God a person ascribes, but their definition of God or, better yet, their God-concept. Thank you.

 

[Zen Sensei]

It's not always about discussion.

Atheist reject existence of all gods in general period. This rejection does not necessarily implies proof that gOd does nor exist. Atheist does not have to prove the non-existence of gOd or gOds. The onus falls on the theist positive claims of the existence of a gOd or gOds. If I claim that I have a pink unicorn hiding in my closet, If you are not required to prove that my claim is false. The default position is that I must prove that there indeed is a pink unicorn hiding in my closet. It is analogous to a person that claims he does not have any money in his pockets. He can't prove he doesn't have any money in his pockets because indeed there are none! Nada, Nyet, Nunca. What part of none don't you understand? Does it make sense now?

 

[Bunyip]

OK, I understand now. It isn't what God a person ascribes, but their definition of God or, better yet, their God-concept. Thank you.

Your'e very welcome., Nice talking to you. If I may give another example breifly?

I LOVE pagan mythology, it is a lifelong fascination. As I understand it (and others may eat me alive for this) the historicity, or 'existence' in that sense of their pantheons is not really relevant in the same way such claims are to Christianity and Islam.

Take for example the story of Zeus disguising himself as a beggar and asking travelers for help. The lesson (be nice to old strangers or Zeus may just mess you up!) is not related to it's historicity in the same way that say the resurrection of Jesus is.
Whilst Christians search for the tomb of Jesus, few pagans seek Apollo.

 

[ChristineES]

Your'e very welcome., Nice talking to you. If I may give another example breifly?

I LOVE pagan mythology, it is a lifelong fascination. As I understand it (and others may eat me alive for this) the historicity, or 'existence' in that sense of their pantheons is not really relevant in the same way such claims are to Christianity and Islam.

Take for example the story of Zeus disguising himself as a beggar and asking travelers for help. The lesson (be nice to old strangers or Zeus may just mess you up!) is not related to it's historicity in the same way that say the resurrection of Jesus is.
Whilst Christians search for the tomb of Jesus, few pagans seek Apollo.

A different faith will have different needs, I suppose. Christians have a personal God, while other God-concepts have impersonal God/gods. But I don't search for the tomb of Jesus, as you suggest. We search for Jesus/Yeshua in a spiritual way.
I have studied Greek mythology. Those who are not Christians and even some of those who are Christians think of the Bible as mythology, too, as stories to seek God yet not literal stories. That really has nothing to do with our discussion, but.

 

[Bunyip]

A different faith will have different needs, I suppose. Christians have a personal God, while other God-concepts have impersonal God/gods. But I don't search for the tomb of Jesus, as you suggest.

Sorry that you took me to mean you personally. I was referring to a long Christian archeological tradition.

We search for Jesus/Yeshua in a spiritual way.
I have studied Greek mythology. Those who are not Christians and even some of those who are Christians think of the Bible as mythology, too, as stories to seek God yet not literal stories. That really has nothing to do with our discussion, but.

Well one person's religion is another's mythology - so I guess that is universally true. That to me has everything to do with the discussion.

 

[vijeno]

It leads one to realize the relative nature of our truths and perceptions. That has a radical effect on how one lives their lives.

Well, if you have that emotional reaction, you have it, and that is not my job to protest. But there is no intrinsic logic to it. My perceptions are relative to what I've experienced, my mother language and culture, my brain's physical limits etc. That holds whether there is an absolute or not.

I'd still claim that for most people, an abstract absolute doesn't have an impact at all. At least those christians I've spent time with irl, they were all about Jesus and how good and loving god is etc., all that abstract thinking was clearly suspicious to them, and a purely abstract absolute would have had no appeal at all to them.

If you move away from the mythic schools of thought which hold God to be a big person in the sky, or some form of external entity, then the Absolute is part of our own being, and knowing that, will radically change our behaviors and attitudes.

The absolute can not be part of "the being of" a relative being. I'm afraid you're moving from logical thinking to mystical poetry here. Not that I don't understand the appeal. Been there, done that. Damn, I need a t-shirt!

[/quote]To apply singular attributes to the Absolute, makes it just another object in the relative domain, and likewise makes it cringe worthy for that very reason. It makes "God" on the order of a Yeti alluding detection in the Himalayas.[/quote]

Sure. That's why saying "god is love" is limiting god. But so does "the absolute is part of my being", by the very same logic, or not?

I rather like the view of infinite regress myself. But again, let's begin by saying anything which is Infinite, or Absolute must of necessity not exclude anything, or anyone. There can be no Infinite that exists outside of me separately. I have to be the Infinite myself, and the Infinite exists Infinitely.

Let me add a little disclaimer here. Thinking too much about the infinite got extremely intelligent people like Georg Cantor into an asylum. It is nothing humans particularly excel at. That said, I challenge your conclusion that, because the infinite is everything, therefore everything is infinite.

1.) If true, that very same logic would hold if you replace "infinite" with "universe", regardless of whether the universe is infinite or not. "The universe is everything, it cannot exclude me, therefore I am the universe".
2.) The cardinal numbers are part of an infinite set, but 2 still does not equal infinity.
3. By your logic, the relative is absolute and the finite is infinite.

By the way, is the absolute necessarily infinite? You suddenly switched the words as if they were exchangeable.