Do We Choose Our Beliefs?

[Trailblazer]

I mean that now that your beliefs have been established, your ongoing "searches for truth" could be confirmation bias in action.

That would not be confirmation bias, but I could be biased.

If you are certain you're correct, then no evidence you ever uncover from now on could convince you you're wrong, could it?

New evidence certainly could convince me I am wrong, but the only thing that could convince me would be if I uncovered something about Baha'u'llah that proved He was a false prophet.... then I'd be out of here so fast, you would not even see my shadow.... I have lots of money, so I could easily be off sunning myself on a beach somewhere.

 

[Left Coast]

That would not be confirmation bias, but I could be biased.

The tendency to interpret new evidence as confirming your existing beliefs wouldn't describe the bias you think you have? Sounds awfully similar to your near absolute confidence in your beliefs and simultaneously relentless "pursuit of truth."

New evidence certainly could convince me I am wrong, but the only thing that could convince me would be if I uncovered something about Baha'u'llah that proved He was a false prophet.... then I'd be out of here so fast, you would not even see my shadow.... I have lots of money, so I could easily be off sunning myself on a beach somewhere.

If he's much like any other prophet with a significant following, his prophecies were probably sufficiently vague to preclude ever being definitively falsified. So, sounds like you've pretty much inoculated yourself from ever changing your mind.

But either way, if you head to a beach, invite me! I love beaches.

 

[Trailblazer]

The tendency to interpret new evidence as confirming your existing beliefs wouldn't describe the bias you think you have?

Well, maybe that could happen, but new evidence could also go the other direction.

Sounds awfully similar to your near absolute confidence in your beliefs and simultaneously relentless "pursuit of truth."

Most Baha'is have the same level of certitude I have, or close, but they also are constantly seeking truth...
You might like this Tablet, if you want your socks knocked off... then again, maybe you won't react to it the way I do:
Tablet of the True Seeker, Gleanings, pp. 264-270

This Tablet alone is enough proof for me to know that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God.
But of course this is not all I have.

I do pursue truth and I am constantly finding more truth, for example in the Bible and in the Qur'an.

If he's much like any other prophet with a significant following, his prophecies were probably sufficiently vague to preclude ever being definitively falsified. So, sounds like you've pretty much inoculated yourself from ever changing your mind.

The prophecies are not the proof, and Baha'u'llah never said that is what we are to look at for proof of His claim.
Nevertheless, they are additional confirmation of all the other evidence.

But either way, if you head to a beach, invite me! I love beaches.

I used to love beaches too. Before I came back to God the Oregon coast was my regular haunt. Now I have no time for beaches, so I rented our house on the beach and he has been there for seven years. At least someone is getting use out of it, even though he is always way behind on the rent.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Well, maybe that could happen, but new evidence could also go the other direction.

His point is that when confronted with new evidence that undermines your belief, you can't see it for what it is. Only evidence that confirms your faith is seen by you. This is true for many people.

 

[Left Coast]

Most Baha'is have the same level of certitude I have, or close, but they also are constantly seeking truth...
You might like this Tablet, if you want your socks knocked off... then again, maybe you won't react to it the way I do:
Tablet of the True Seeker, Gleanings, pp. 264-270

This Tablet alone is enough proof for me to know that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God.
But of course this is not all I have.

Yikes Trail. First of all, you guys really need to update these writings from the King's English. Secondly, that whole thing is just one long, flowery ode to confirmation bias! And it doesn't give any pieces of evidence for Baha'u'llah at all, it's just his claims about the process of seeking God. If this is the caliber of the evidence you have for Baha'u'llah, I can see why you've put off a thread about it.

I used to love beaches too. Before I came back to God the Oregon coast was my regular haunt. Now I have no time for beaches, so I rented our house on the beach and he has been there for seven years. At least someone is getting use out of it, even though he is always way behind on the rent.

Sorry to hear that. Northern California and Oregon coastline is lovely, I greatly enjoy it and find is restorative whenever I go.

 

[Trailblazer]

His point is that when confronted with new evidence that undermines your belief, you can't see it for what it is. Only evidence that confirms your faith is seen by you.

How can you possibly know that this applies to me? How do you know what I see?
I have not seen any "new" evidence that undermines my beliefs, but bring it on if you can find any.

This is true for many people.

I fully agree, and in my most humble opinion it is true for almost all Christians and Jews.
They do not like any "new" evidence that might undermine their beliefs.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Do we choose our beliefs?

We should choose after we’ve been appraised of all the evidence, comprising everything we’ve discovered so far.

Many don’t take the time, though....they go along w/ their family, or those who are popular.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yikes Trail. First of all, you guys really need to update these writings from the King's English. Secondly, that whole thing is just one long, flowery ode to confirmation bias! And it doesn't give any pieces of evidence for Baha'u'llah at all, it's just his claims about the process of seeking God. If this is the caliber of the evidence you have for Baha'u'llah, I can see why you've put off a thread about it.

Didn't I predict that you would see that Tablet differently than I do?
I love the King's English.
How could that possibly be a flowery ode to confirmation bias?
None of it is claims of Baha'u'llah.
I told you that is certainly not all the evidence I have
I said it is evidence for me because the Writings of Baha'u'llah are the best evidence for me that God exists.
There is other evidence for Baha'u'llah that is just as convincing to me that He was a Manifestation of God.

Sorry to hear that. Northern California and Oregon coastline is lovely, I greatly enjoy it and find is restorative whenever I go.

I used to live in Northern California, and back then I frequented that coastline. Now I live in Washington so I don't go down there anymore.

 

[Left Coast]

Didn't I predict that you would see that Tablet differently than I do?
I love the King's English.
How could that possibly be a flowery ode to confirmation bias?

By saying what it says, that's how. Regard all as nothingness except God? At all times put your trust in God and renounce the peoples of the earth? Begin every day by "communing" with God? These are textbook instructions in self-deception.

None of it is claims of Baha'u'llah.

The whole thing is claims of Baha'u'llah. Didn't he write/say it?

I told you that is certainly not all the evidence I have
I said it is evidence for me because the Writings of Baha'u'llah are the best evidence for me that God exists.
There is other evidence for Baha'u'llah that is just as convincing to me that He was a Manifestation of God.

Is there any evidence that's better or more convincing than what you just shared?

I used to live in Northern California, and back then I frequented that coastline. Now I live in Washington so I don't go down there anymore.

Washington has its own beautiful parts though. I've been there a few times and always enjoyed myself.

 

[Trailblazer]

By saying what it says, that's how. Regard all as nothingness except God? At all times put your trust in God and renounce the peoples of the earth? Begin every day by "communing" with God? These are textbook instructions in self-deception.

Do you understand that scriptures are not always to be interpreted literally? This Tablet is one such scripture, one of the mystical Tablets. We are not supposed to renounce people, the Baha'i Faith is all about serving humanity and making this world a better place to live in, building a new world order, the Kingdom of God on earth.

Regarding all as nothingness except God means that relative to God all else is as nothing, because nothing in this material world is that important. This is what Baha'is believe. I think that you will find that many Christians and Muslims share these beliefs.

I do not know why you think it is self-deception. Logically speaking, it is either true or false. If true, then x, if false then y.

The whole thing is claims of Baha'u'llah. Didn't he write/say it?

Yes, He wrote it. What I meant is that it is not Baha'u'llah claiming anything about Himself.

Is there any evidence that's better or more convincing than what you just shared?

Of course, I was not offering that as evidence, I just happened to think of it when we were talking about seeking God and I said it is evidence for me. But many years ago when I first read it I did not consider it evidence, I did not even understand it.

I do not what would constitute evidence for you. We are all very different.

Washington has its own beautiful parts though. I've been there a few times and always enjoyed myself.

Yes, Washington is very beautiful, if you do not mind the clouds and rain. It had not been raining much at all but lately it has been making up for lost time.

 

[Left Coast]

Do you understand that scriptures are not always to be interpreted literally? This Tablet is one such scripture, one of the mystical Tablets.

Ah, the classic comeback. Well why didn't you provide the appropriate interpretive lens for me to understand the passage, if it doesn't mean what it says? How am I supposed to know? You just linked it and said this is all you need to believe in God.

We are not supposed to renounce people, the Baha'i Faith is all about serving humanity and making this world a better place to live in, building a new world order, the Kingdom of God on earth.

Regarding all as nothingness except God means that relative to God all else is as nothing, because nothing in this material world is that important. This is what Baha'is believe. I think that you will find that many Christians and Muslims share these beliefs.

Yes, I'm well aware other theists hold similar beliefs. It's rather disturbing that you're asked to regard nothing in this material world as important, as that minimizes a whole lot of stuff that seems pretty important: people being murdered, raped, finding cures for disease, and so on.

I do not know why you think it is self-deception. Logically speaking, it is either true or false. If true, then x, if false then y.

It's self-deception because you are told to trust and behave as though something is true before it's been demonstrated. The whole point is that we're starting from a position of not believing in a god, and now Baha is going to tell us how we seek his god. He tells us to do so by clinging to his god as though nothing else is important in life, "communing" with this unproven god daily, etc.

Yes, He wrote it. What I meant is that it is not Baha'u'llah claiming anything about Himself.

No, he's claiming things about god and how to seek him.

I do not what would constitute evidence for you. We are all very different.

The necessary evidence is dependent on the claim. I don't have any idea how one would demonstrate that a person is a messenger of a supernatural deity since we have no access to the supernatural. You seem to think you know, though, so I'm happy to consider the evidence you have.

Yes, Washington is very beautiful, if you do not mind the clouds and rain. It had not been raining much at all but lately it has been making up for lost time.

Same here! We need it though.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I said it is evidence for me because the Writings of Baha'u'llah are the best evidence for me that God exists.

Can you share some of that evidence? (Or did you say it was personal evidence?)

 

[Trailblazer]

Ah, the classic comeback. Well why didn't you provide the appropriate interpretive lens for me to understand the passage, if it doesn't mean what it says? How am I supposed to know? You just linked it and said this is all you need to believe in God.

Sorry, I sometimes do things very spontaneously and I do not think of the aftermath. I guess I figured I would just wait and see what happened and deal with it then. It was not what I needed to believe in God back when I made that choice, what I meant is that it would be enough for me to believe in Baha’u’llah and thus in God now, but that is probably because I already believe so that is easy to say.

Yes, I'm well aware other theists hold similar beliefs. It's rather disturbing that you're asked to regard nothing in this material world as important, as that minimizes a whole lot of stuff that seems pretty important: people being murdered, raped, finding cures for disease, and so on.

When I said “nothing in this material world is that important” I meant things we can get attached to, like cars, houses, boats, food, drink, and sex; I did not mean things that we should care about like poverty, racism, injustice, etc. The Baha’i Faith is all about making this world a better place.

It's self-deception because you are told to trust and behave as though something is true before it's been demonstrated. The whole point is that we're starting from a position of not believing in a god, and now Baha is going to tell us how we seek his god. He tells us to do so by clinging to his god as though nothing else is important in life, "communing" with this unproven god daily, etc.

Again, I am sorry I did not explain that Tablet. That Tablet is for those who already believe in God, who are true seekers. My point was that we still seek after we believe but I have been in such a rush answering all these posts I did not have time to explain that.

No, he's claiming things about god and how to seek him.

Yes, that much is true.

The necessary evidence is dependent on the claim. I don't have any idea how one would demonstrate that a person is a messenger of a supernatural deity since we have no access to the supernatural. You seem to think you know, though, so I'm happy to consider the evidence you have.

I think I have explained that nobody can prove that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God because nobody can even prove God exists. There is evidence that indicates that the claims of Baha’u’llah are true but that is all we have.

 

[Trailblazer]

Can you share some of that evidence? (Or did you say it was personal evidence?)

No, it is not just personal evidence.

I might start a thread on evidence that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God, but only if I get some requests because I do not want staff to accuse me of proselytizing.

@ Left Coast asked me to start a thread like that months ago, but I got really busy so it got lost in the shuffle. It would have ti be timed properly so I would have time to answer posts, when I know I will have time off work.

 

[rstrats]

Left Coast,
re: "... if we're convinced something is true, we believe it already."

Correct. Once we are convinced of the truth of a thing it is too late to consciously choose to believe it because we already do.


re: "We don't choose to be convinced, it just happens."

Correct. It's most likely due to some process which takes place in the subconscious as a result of an exposure to stimuli, such as literature, lectures, media, conversation, reflection, experience, etc.

However, a number of folks are saying or at least implying that they can consciously choose to believe things. Perhaps one of them can help me. I have never been able to consciously choose any of the beliefs that I have and I would like to be able to do that. If someone here thinks that they can consciously choose to believe things, I wonder if they might explain how they do it. What do they do at the last moment to instantly change their one state of belief to another? What is it that they do that would allow them to say, "OK, at this moment I don't believe that ‘x’ exists or is true, but I choose to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true?

Maybe they could use something like leprechauns to demonstrate their technique. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, a leprechaun is "a fairy peculiar to Ireland, who appeared in the form of an old man of minute stature, wearing a cocked hat and a leather apron" and who stores away his gold in a pot at the end of a rainbow, and If ever captured has to grant three wishes to the person who captures him.

And if beliefs can be engendered by simply choosing to have them, then evidence is not necessary - prudent in some cases perhaps - but not necessary.

 

[SalixIncendium]

I might start a thread on evidence that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God, but only if I get some requests because I do not want staff to accuse me of proselytizing.

Getting requests to start a thread that breaks a rule doesn't absolve one from moderation.

That said, if you have actual objective evidence, feel free to start a thread. Just bear in mind that "God told Baha'u'llah that he was a Messenger of God, Baha'u'llah passed this knowledge in his words in writing, and this Baha'i writing says Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God, so Baha'u'llah is a Messenger of God" is circular reasoning, not evidence. Just as "the Bible says is the word of God, God is infallible, therefore the Bible is infallible, therefore the Bible must be the word of God."

Finally, the staff isn't going to accuse you of proselytizing if you don't proselytize.

 

[syo]

Do we choose our beliefs?

Yes. I want to be a pagan and luckily I am right.

 

[Left Coast]

I think I have explained that nobody can prove that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God because nobody can even prove God exists. There is evidence that indicates that the claims of Baha’u’llah are true but that is all we have.

Start that thread! We don't need a 20th thread where you rationalize divine hiddenness.

 

[shmogie]

No. We don't. I like your example.

If someone can change their belief, I wonder if they believed in X to begin with. You can have a revelation that X isn't true but if you KNOW X is true, it is knowledge not belief.

I wonder why they call it belief if they are convinced that it is true

Do you know that Tasmania exists, or do you believe it does ? Have you been there, or have you just seen video's, pics, or read about it ? Can acquired knowledge be in error ?

 

[Left Coast]

Yes. I want to be a pagan and luckily I am right.

Did you choose to want to be a pagan?

As a side note, I'd love to see a thread giving the evidence for paganism.