Do we have a soul?

[Quiddity]

On the other hand is this simply our self infatuation with our intelligence and supposed freewill manifest?

From mother natures perspective free will is troublesome. Don't you think?

~Victor

 

[Master Vigil]

there is the argument that energy cannot be destroyed, so if you believe their is spirit energy (a soul) you would believe it lives after the body has died - i believe in progressive reincarnation, the soul goes from body to body, that is where the soul in a new baby comes from

Indeed. I wonder who today, has the energy that once sparked life in Moses, Buddha, Shakespeare, or Jesus? Could the "second coming" of Jesus be a reincarnation who remembers?

 

[Mike182]

Indeed. I wonder who today, has the energy that once sparked life in Moses, Buddha, Shakespeare, or Jesus? Could the "second coming" of Jesus be a reincarnation who remembers?

i would answer that with my belief in choice after death, but that is for a "life after death" debate, not a "soul" debate

 

[Fade]

I agree with (Well, most people think that way)..........but

To me, that does not 'compute'. What is fear ? Fear is of the unknown. To believe in a Soul means that you believe that there is consciousness after death; to be an atheist is to believe your consciousness tuns to dust.............

Out of the two, which is the more likely to cause an element of fear ? - Having a soul, of course.because we don't Know what will happen....we hope we think we do, but until the time comes, it is just pure conjecture. Therefore, there is more to fear in the belief of a Soul than in total oblivion.

QED

Ah but Michel, that is where faith comes in. If you have faith you have no reason to fear death. It strikes me that if you fear for your soul you are either suffering from a guilty conscience or your faith isn't that strong.

At any rate I wasn't talking about fear. We all fear death to some degree irrespective of our beliefs. Anyone who says otherwise is lying IMO. We all deal with it in our own way and I think some people choose to deal with it by using irrational beliefs.

 

[YmirGF]

At any rate I wasn't talking about fear. We all fear death to some degree irrespective of our beliefs. Anyone who says otherwise is lying IMO. We all deal with it in our own way and I think some people choose to deal with it by using irrational beliefs.

Hiya Fade,
I understand you were addressing Michel, but I could not resist responding.
Fade, I have no fear whatsoever of death, period. You say, that makes me a liar.
I am a bit puzzled how to respond to that. If I am already lying, nothing I say can be believed. I would suggest that your opinion is somewhat shortsighted and is a self verifying viewpoint, as you have already decided that those who feel otherwise are already wrong. You viewpoint does not allow for a serious alternative and to me, that is selling yourself short.

Unlike our religious friends, faith has little meaning to me, outside of the fact that I have faith in my own abilities. I wrote earlier tonight of my Dad who is killing himself due to his own self neglect. I am not fearful that he will die. Get that straight. I might be fearful that he is missing out on a life that still may have a measure of sweetness.
He doesn't seem to fear death either, in fact he is rather resigned to it. My dad is also an atheist. What he fears is a life of continued misery, where he is unable to do what he used to.

And frankly Faith, to me, yours are the irrational beliefs. So who is right?
There are many things in this life that we do not understand and to simply dismiss them because they do not fit into our preconceived notions of what should be, does not alter or negate them one single iota.

 

[Fade]

Hiya Fade,
I understand you were addressing Michel, but I could not resist responding.
Fade, I have no fear whatsoever of death, period. You say, that makes me a liar.
I am a bit puzzled how to respond to that. If I am already lying, nothing I say can be believed. I would suggest that your opinion is somewhat shortsighted and is a self verifying viewpoint, as you have already decided that those who feel otherwise are already wrong. You viewpoint does not allow for a serious alternative and to me, that is selling yourself short.

I don't believe you. Simply put, a person who does not fear death has no reason for fear at all. Fear of death is hardwired into practically every living organism. If it wasn't then there would be no fight for survival.
Put another way, if we had to go on a road trip together I know I certainly wouldn't let you drive.

 

[Mike182]

I don't believe you. Simply put, a person who does not fear death has no reason for fear at all. Fear of death is hardwired into practically every living organism. If it wasn't then there would be no fight for survival.
Put another way, if we had to go on a road trip together I know I certainly wouldn't let you drive.

perhaps we should differentiate between a fear of death and a fear of pain

death, the end of life
pain, hurting

i am not scared of my life ending, i am only scared of it ending in a painful way

 

[Fade]

death, the end of life
pain, hurting

What are pain and hurting? I view them as mechanisms that an organism uses to indicate a threat to life. So IMO fear of pain is an indirect fear of death.

At any rate what else is there to fear about death? I can't really think of much about death that scares me more than 'it might hurt'. I certainly am uneasy about what happens next, but that is just fear of the unknown.

 

[Mike182]

What are pain and hurting? I view them as mechanisms that an organism uses to indicate a threat to life. So IMO fear of pain is an indirect fear of death.

At any rate what else is there to fear about death? I can't really think of much about death that scares me more than 'it might hurt'. I certainly am uneasy about what happens next, but that is just fear of the unknown.

i am prety firm in my belief of what happens after death, so i don't fear death, other than i fear pain

is this an indircet fear of death, debatable, but we are not debating that perhaps another thread?

 

[michel]

What are pain and hurting? I view them as mechanisms that an organism uses to indicate a threat to life. So IMO fear of pain is an indirect fear of death.

Sorry Fade, that just doesn't 'compute'. Whe I go to hospital, I fear the pain of an operation when I awake, but I still look forward to feeling better at the end of it all; to me that is an exact parallel.

 

[YmirGF]

I don't believe you. Simply put, a person who does not fear death has no reason for fear at all. Fear of death is hardwired into practically every living organism. If it wasn't then there would be no fight for survival.
Put another way, if we had to go on a road trip together I know I certainly wouldn't let you drive.

Fade, I see you are only 25 years old. I was just like you until Feb. 28, 1974 shortly after 8 pm PST. Something happened that night that still has me reeling over 30 years later. I wont discuss what happened, but that night I encountered something that was completely and totally impossible, in ordinary terms. I wasn't trying to do anything, was NOT into meditation and was an avowed ATHEIST. My world, my view of self, and my view of reality changed in a heartbeat. I have never looked back. I have also never returned to an ordinary view of "self". You must try to understand that I do not care if you believe me. Your belief does not degrade my experience in the slightest, but it does affect your own.

Regarding fear of death:

You do make a valid point. MY BODY has no wish for a premature end. Have no doubt. MY BODY will strive to keep itself alive at almost any cost. However, when my time comes, I have no fear of that terminal reality. When my time comes I will simply put away MY BODY like a cherished old sweater and eagerly await what WILL come next.

 

[ChrisP]

Fade, I see you are only 25 years old. I was just like you until Feb. 28, 1974 shortly after 8 pm PST. Something happened that night that still has me reeling over 30 years later. I wont discuss what happened, but that night I encountered something that was completely and totally impossible, in ordinary terms. I wasn't trying to do anything, was NOT into meditation and was an avowed ATHEIST. My world, my view of self, and my view of reality changed in a heartbeat. I have never looked back. I have also never returned to an ordinary view of "self". You must try to understand that I do not care if you believe me. Your belief does not degrade my experience in the slightest, but it does affect your own.

Regarding fear of death:

You do make a valid point. MY BODY has no wish for a premature end. Have no doubt. MY BODY will strive to keep itself alive at almost any cost. However, when my time comes, I have no fear of that terminal reality. When my time comes I will simply put away MY BODY like a cherished old sweater and eagerly await what WILL come next.

When I was younger, the best considerations of Death around were Francis Bacon's essay upon the subject which can be found here :

http://www.classicbookshelf.com/library/francis_bacon/essays_of_francis_bacon/1/

So unless someone's bettered this poet in the last 5 years or so.

 

[YmirGF]

When I was younger, the best considerations of Death around were Francis Bacon's essay upon the subject which can be found here :

http://www.classicbookshelf.com/lib...rancis_bacon/1/

So unless someone's bettered this poet in the last 5 years or so.

Wow. A bit ponderous for my tastes, but certainly excellent.

 

[Mister_T]

Of course people have souls. It's where we get things like feelings, creativity, personality, etc. Music, drama, laughter, compassion, happiness and sadness, all of these things comes from our souls. Our bodies are biological machines. The only difference between our body and a robot's body is the material we're made out of. But what seperates us from robots are the things I mentioned above. Robots don't cry at funerals. Robots don't create music unless they are programmed to do so. Robots don't feel compassion when they see little childeren starving on T.V. They just go thorugh the motions until their battery runs out.

 

[Fade]

Fade, I see you are only 25 years old. I was just like you until Feb. 28, 1974 shortly after 8 pm PST. Something happened that night that still has me reeling over 30 years later. I wont discuss what happened, but that night I encountered something that was completely and totally impossible, in ordinary terms. I wasn't trying to do anything, was NOT into meditation and was an avowed ATHEIST. My world, my view of self, and my view of reality changed in a heartbeat. I have never looked back. I have also never returned to an ordinary view of "self". You must try to understand that I do not care if you believe me. Your belief does not degrade my experience in the slightest, but it does affect your own.

This brings us back to my original point to Michel which was faith as a reason not to fear death. So I think we are basically in agreement.

Regarding fear of death:

You do make a valid point. MY BODY has no wish for a premature end. Have no doubt. MY BODY will strive to keep itself alive at almost any cost. However, when my time comes, I have no fear of that terminal reality. When my time comes I will simply put away MY BODY like a cherished old sweater and eagerly await what WILL come next.

Again I don't think we are in disagreement here. You have faith in what you believe will happen next, therefore you have no fear of death. Having said that I still find it hard to believe that you don't fear death in the slightest. But that is just my opinion.

 

[Fade]

Sorry Fade, that just doesn't 'compute'. Whe I go to hospital, I fear the pain of an operation when I awake, but I still look forward to feeling better at the end of it all; to me that is an exact parallel.

I don't get your point. The fact that you look forward to getting better doesn't mean you aren't afraid that you might die. After all people do die during surgery.

Parallel to what?

 

[Fade]

Of course people have souls. It's where we get things like feelings, creativity, personality, etc. Music, drama, laughter, compassion, happiness and sadness, all of these things comes from our souls. Our bodies are biological machines. The only difference between our body and a robot's body is the material we're made out of. But what seperates us from robots are the things I mentioned above. Robots don't cry at funerals. Robots don't create music unless they are programmed to do so. Robots don't feel compassion when they see little childeren starving on T.V. They just go thorugh the motions until their battery runs out.

What makes you think that we aren't programmed like robots and just running processes that we have been preprogrammed to?

 

[michel]

What makes you think that we aren't programmed like robots and just running processes that we have been preprogrammed to?

Because if we were, we would all be the same, think the same, and react to every action the same; that's individuality for you.

Tell me a human who can make a robot with individuality, and the ability to 'choose' (sometimes badly).

 

[Fade]

Because if we were, we would all be the same, think the same, and react to every action the same; that's individuality for you.

It is pretty easy to introduce a little randomness into AI. Heck, a computer chess opponent can be programmed to make different choices, otherwise Gary Kasporov would beat it everytime.

 

[michel]

It is pretty easy to introduce a little randomness into AI. Heck, a computer chess opponent can be programmed to make different choices, otherwise Gary Kasporov would beat it everytime.

Good point; now how about emotion ?