Do we have free will?

[Tawn]

That is my interpretation.. its either random or controlled.. but I want to get to the bottom of what believers in free will think..

 

[jeffrey]

I should get going and start helping with the house cleaning. I'm tired, so I think I'll sit here awhile longer. Now I've been tired before and gotten up and helped. Been even more tired and gotten up and help. But I have decided to sit here awhile longer. My choice. Nothing to do with what has or hasn't happened in the past. A voice in my head is saying "GET YOUR FAT BUTT UP AND HELP CLEAN!" But today I'm choosing, by my free will, to ignore that voice.

 

[Tawn]

So free will is just simply chaos added to our decision making process?

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

However, id like to get down to a much smaller scale..

Lets say at some point there is a decision.. there are two choices. How does free will actually pick beteen two choices? How does this work?

Free will is not all about physical choices. It's about your emotions. The question: what is your decision between two choices, and how is free will involved? Well, the basis of free will is: are you making the decision based on love, or fear?

Free will is the choice of how you react to the world around you. Do you react with fear and anger, resentment, or do you react with love, understanding and acceptance.

 

[Tawn]

Free will is not all about physical choices. It's about your emotions. The question: what is your decision between two choices, and how is free will involved? Well, the bases of free will is are you making the decision based on love, or fear?

Free will is the choice of how you react to the world around you. Do you react with fear and anger, resentment, or do you react with love, understanding and acceptance.

Thats an interesting response. Science maintains that human emotions are simply chemical reactions to certain external stimulai.. and theres a lot of evidence to prove this.
Chemicals and your diet can have a huge impact on your emotions. Depression can be caused by a poor diet and can be alleviated (temporarily) by certain drugs. In fact most basic emotions have been attributed to the secretion of certain chemicals into parts of your brain. Endorphines = happiness. Thats how narcotics work - they emulate the chemicals your body produces and give you a feeling of happiness.
Even physical excercise is shown to produce natural endorphines. Chocolate too.
If free will is down to emotions this certainly supports the idea that there is no free will since emotions are entirely controllable by external means.

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

Thats an interesting response. Science maintains that human emotions are simply chemical reactions to certain external stimulai.. and theres a lot of evidence to prove this.
Chemicals and your diet can have a huge impact on your emotions. Depression can be caused by a poor diet and can be alleviated (temporarily) by certain drugs. In fact most basic emotions have been attributed to the secretion of certain chemicals into parts of your brain. Endorphines = happiness. Thats how narcotics work - they emulate the chemicals your body produces and give you a feeling of happiness.
Even physical excercise is shown to produce natural endorphines. Chocolate too.
If free will is down to emotions this certainly supports the idea that there is no free will since emotions are entirely controllable by external means.

I see what you are saying. Science has also determined that happy people heal faster that angry people.

I think I should define emotions as I see it. Happiness, and depression are not true emotions, but more like the sum of your emotions. Similar emotions pool together to create these.
Anger is an emotional defense mechanism. And usually causes a small 'problem' to become a bigger one. Others that fall into this catagory are jealousy, greed, envy, and fear.

Now you have the freedom to choose these defense mechanisms, or to choose the opposite; forgiveness (not the act of forgiving, but the emotional release of negative 'energy'), compassion, charity.

The Buddha taught the following to his son Rahula (from "Old path white clouds" by Thich Nhat Hahn):

"Rahula, practice loving kindness to overcome anger. Loving kindness has the capacity to bring happiness to others without demanding anything in return.

Practice compassion to overcome cruelty. Compassion has the capacity to remove the suffering of others without expecting anything in return.

Practice sympathetic joy to overcome hatred. Sympathetic joy arises when one rejoices over the happiness of others and wishes others well-being and success.

Practice non-attachment to overcome prejudice. Non-attachment is the way of looking at all things openly and equally. This is because that is.

Myself and others are not separate. Do not reject one thing only to chase after another.

I call these the four immeasurables. Practice them and you will become a refreshing source of vitality and happiness for others."

People who do not learn that they can control their emotions do not ever learn how to experience free will. Are not aware of how their own free will is creating their reality. They feel as though they have no choice, and their circumstances are to blame for all the things that happen to them.

 

[Tawn]

Ok but then were back where we began. We have a choice, it could be a choice of whether to let an emotion override us or not.. what makes us decide to control an emotion or not?

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

Let's say you are stuck in traffic, you have a choice to be angry and frustrated, or to relax, maybe kick back and find some good music on the radio.

Now, the choice you make here is going to effect how the world is going to react to you. If you choose to be angry, stop at a gas station, and get irate with the attendant, he in turn has a choice on how to react to you. Does he get mad and defensive, or does he just accept that you are merely having a bad day?

Any way, if you had instead decided to enjoy the moment of rest that was 'forced upon you.' You might be more cheerful to the man at the gas station, and this would have caused a different flow of energy between those two people.

This happens hundreds of times a day. And you do have the freedom to choose at each moment whether you are reacting out of love or hate. Like or dislike. Acceptance or non-acceptance.

 

[Tawn]

but that doesnt answer my question.. what actually is going on in your head when you decide whether to be angry or not?
What you described was cause and effect.. every decision has a knock on effect on other peoples decisions.. but where is the free element? how does this work? how do you decide between two choices? Is it random? Is it based on an assessment of the facts? Or something else I cant fathom?

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

but that doesnt answer my question.. what actually is going on in your head when you decide whether to be angry or not?
What you described was cause and effect.. every decision has a knock on effect on other peoples decisions.. but where is the free element? how does this work? how do you decide between two choices? Is it random? Is it based on an assessment of the facts? Or something else I cant fathom?

I see where this can be confusing. I am getting ready to go to lunch. But I will think about an answer to this question and get back to you.

 

[Ormiston]

but that doesnt answer my question.. what actually is going on in your head when you decide whether to be angry or not?
What you described was cause and effect.. every decision has a knock on effect on other peoples decisions.. but where is the free element? how does this work? how do you decide between two choices? Is it random? Is it based on an assessment of the facts? Or something else I cant fathom?

After some thought, our "freewill" must be attributed to randomness. Or better yet, that the complexity of making a decision is such that it is very near random. I imagine that the first living creatures behaved in a completely random fashion and that through evolution judgement came about. This is the exact opposite of the development of the computer. The behavior of a computer started with very specific results (eg. 1 + 1 = 2) and has grown more complex from there. As far as our current condition, only probabilities can be applied to human behavior ie. we are still random in nature.

Now, does this mean we are "free" from the very randomness this suggests? I think we have definately harnessed this randomness to a great degree and that suggest some measure of control. So I think it is fair to say we have limited freedom. And I think it's fair to follow that if we had complete control of ourselves, and eliminated the randomness, we would also lose our sense of freedom. All of our behavior would become predictable.

(just my thoughts - zero scientific back-up):sarcastic

 

[Fluffy]

Well, the bases of free will is are you making the decision based on love, or fear?

THAT sounded like a line straight out of Donnie Darko. Ya know the bit where they are doing the life line in class with that creepy teacher?

Another suggestion: IF free will is purely down to randomness, does blame exist? So okay sure you do make the decision out of your own free will. But if it is TOTALLY random then you still can't be blamed or praised for making the wrong or right choice surely?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I have read most of the replies about free will, but being new to this forum I am not yet indoctrinated in the use of obtuse argument.

As I understand it Free Will is about choice. Of course, previous experience, external pressure and even the Devil. All can influence us when making making decisions.

But when push comes to shove it is we who must make the decision, or equally decide not to make one at all, which is always an option.

This choice however influenced is free. And is made by our own will.

 

[Tawn]

How does our will make a choice then? It must be either random or based on an assessment of the facts.

Put yourself in a position where you have to make a decision. What makes you choose A over B?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

It's pointless, Tawn. Many of those who believe in free will are simply going to continue to repeat "You choose to do things, you have free will" over and over again as if stating that opinion suffices as support.

 

[Sunstone]

It's pointless, Tawn. Many of those who believe in free will are simply going to continue to repeat "You choose to do things, you have free will" over and over again as if stating that opinion suffices as support.

Do they have a choice?

 

[Ormiston]

How does our will make a choice then? It must be either random or based on an assessment of the facts.

Put yourself in a position where you have to make a decision. What makes you choose A over B?

It's not hopeless. We can try to sort this out. Can it simply be possible that all factors are somehow responsible for our decisions, known and unknown? We are part of a larger system: existance. We are equipped with judgement and instinct and we exist in an environment where infinity is the limit. Mix in the flow of time and it's like racing through a maze. Left, right, right, left...we have freewill because decisions NEED to be made. Ramblings at best...any thoughts?

 

[Nick Soapdish]

Lets say at some point there is a decision.. there are two choices. How does free will actually pick between two choices? How does this work?

First off, we should recognize the inner-self--the mind, the soul and the heart--is not a material thing. In the sciences we are accustomed to material things which have reductionistic qualities. We can understand a material object better by breaking it up into smaller pieces.

This cannot be done with the inner-self. It is elementary in its own right and acts, not according to internal-mechanisms or randomness, but according to a self-determination.

The brain is an organ that is reductionistic. Its role is to aggregate information about our environment and our body. We are aware of this information through an aperture known as the consciousness. This consciousness is an aspect of the inner-self, and cannot be disassembled into smaller consciousness-pieces. It is holistic and indivisible. It is through this instrument that we then enact our will by motivating the body.

The material world is then just a medium for our souls to interact and develop relationships. As we are essentially free, self-determined entities, it is necessary for this medium to have rules for negotiating the actions of our wills. These rules are the laws of physics.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

First off, we should recognize the inner-self--the mind, the soul and the heart--is not a material thing.

Now we just need to substantiate the existence of an "inner self".

We are aware of this information through an aperture known as the consciousness. This consciousness is an aspect of the inner-self, and cannot be disassembled into smaller consciousness-pieces. It is holistic and indivisible. It is through this instrument that we then enact our will by motivating the body.

So you're saying people can't be semi-conscious? Physical things like drugs and other stimulii can't affect consciousness? What about schitzophrenics and people with multiple personality disorder: is their consciousness "holistic and indivisible"?

I think you forget that consciousness is, in fact, within the realm of scientific knowledge and experimentation. Like many things, it is no longer constrained to eclectic philosophical speculation.

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

Ok, I'm going to switch up on you. Instead of talking about tiny little choices you make everyday. Let's talk about our situation that you think we are just thrown into without choice. I say we choose to be born and we choose who our parents are.

Why would we incarnate into a war-torn area or into a country steeped in ignorance and deprivation? Why would we choose to inhabit bodies that are malnourished or diseased or deformed and racked with pain? Why would we wish to incarnate into families whose members are stuck in behavior patterns such as alcoholism, mental illness or abuses of all kinds?


Why would we not choose to only enter into families that are loving and supporting of us and that have the connections and resources to further our own agendas? Millions of us do choose to be born into such family situations. But many many more millions of us take our incarnations in the circumstances previously mentioned.


We take our opportunities as they are presented and there are far more opportunities available in the first category than in the second one, with the high level of negativity and the distribution of wealth, goods and freedoms being what they are on the planet. We bring the light into the areas that so desperately need it and in our innocence, we are Hope, though it be yet veiled. These are the times of great travail and we have chosen the ways in which we may best serve humanity.


Though we may incarnate into extremely negative and even hazardous conditions, we know that in the eternal scheme of things, a physical vessel is of short duration. Even in the midst of war we can experience love and compassion. And even in the midst of plenty, we can experience hatred and deprivation. You have many examples before you. So even if our earth experiencing is short in time, we can receive the greatest number of challenges for our spiritual growth and, therefore, can evolve at a faster rate.

Now, if you still do not understand why we take incarnations in war-torn areas or areas of deprivation, or enter into diseased or deformed bodies, or put ourselves into dysfunctional and sick family situations, we will say it again, very simply. Because we love you. That is why.

Peace be with you,
We are the Indigo Children