Do we have free will?

[capthowdy]

I'm making this thread to continue a debate I engaged Tawn in, over if free will does truly exsist. If anyone else has any thoughts on the subject then your posts are welcome. Anyways where were we?

 

[Malus 12:9]

If there is such a thing as free will, it has many dimensions. Define free will? YOUR version of free will.

Seeing as this is in the religious debates section, I will look at it in a religious manner. Do you mean free will in what we believe (religiously, spiritually or orther)? Do we have free will in what God we worship, what churches we join etc? Fill me in a little more.

 

[capthowdy]

I believe we have free will in everything we choose from religious practice, to getting up and going to work or not....even deciding to eat or not. The debate I was having with Tawn....(and forgive me if I misquote) was that free will exsists, however his counterpoint was that if others or events can affect your choices then you do not have free will.

 

[Tawn]

My view is that every decision you take is a result of a precise 'arrangement' if you will of your experiences, psysiology and the particular circumstance you find yourself in.
Think of it in the same light as rolling a die onto a table. The die roll isnt truly random.. or free to turn up on whatever side it 'likes'.. the side it turns up on is a direct result of the precise dimensions of the die, the position it was thrown from and the power and spin with which it was thrown, the surface conditions of the table. If thrown from those infinitely precise conditions again, it will turn up the same every time.

For example, if I eat a lot of fish oils, it has been shown to improve concentration. THis may help me in analysing information, thus affecting the decisions I make. In fact there is strong evidence to link mood and psychology with diet.
It is nonsense to say that we choose our diet. Not all of us do - in fact most of us dont. Arguing that the person who prepares the food makes a choice is also nonsense.. we either all have free choice or none of us do. However, who chooses exactly how the food grows? This is all determined environmentally.. effectively it becomes an infinitely complicated chain of cause and effects.. see the butterfly effect.
Again, if I have had a traumatic experience it will also affect my decisions. I only say traumatic because these have the most obvious results on our decision making processes - but I think every single little experience we have, if it is even slightly memorised, will have an effect upon certain decisions we make.
Likewise, change even a small attribute of the situation we are faced with and it can effect our decision.

Dont take it as if I am saying that we dont make decisions and choices. We do, but the answers we will arrive at are an inevitable result of all the above factors. Much like the die. It seems to be random, but it actually an inevitable result of the exact conditions of the roll.
Humans are like computers. We are theoretically[/b] predictable.. though this isnt always straightforward, most people do act in predictable ways. We collect information, process it and act on it.
Look at it like this. If you were born as hitler, with hitlers genes and had hitlers experiences, you would live your life the exact same way.

 

[capthowdy]

My view is that every decision you take is a result of a precise 'arrangement' if you will of your experiences, psysiology and the particular circumstance you find yourself in.
Think of it in the same light as rolling a die onto a table. The die roll isnt truly random.. or free to turn up on whatever side it 'likes'.. the side it turns up on is a direct result of the precise dimensions of the die, the position it was thrown from and the power and spin with which it was thrown, the surface conditions of the table. If thrown from those infinitely precise conditions again, it will turn up the same every time.

For example, if I eat a lot of fish oils, it has been shown to improve concentration. THis may help me in analysing information, thus affecting the decisions I make. In fact there is strong evidence to link mood and psychology with diet.
It is nonsense to say that we choose our diet. Not all of us do - in fact most of us dont. Arguing that the person who prepares the food makes a choice is also nonsense.. we either all have free choice or none of us do. However, who chooses exactly how the food grows? This is all determined environmentally.. effectively it becomes an infinitely complicated chain of cause and effects.. see the butterfly effect.
Again, if I have had a traumatic experience it will also affect my decisions. I only say traumatic because these have the most obvious results on our decision making processes - but I think every single little experience we have, if it is even slightly memorised, will have an effect upon certain decisions we make.
Likewise, change even a small attribute of the situation we are faced with and it can effect our decision.

Dont take it as if I am saying that we dont make decisions and choices. We do, but the answers we will arrive at are an inevitable result of all the above factors. Much like the die. It seems to be random, but it actually an inevitable result of the exact conditions of the roll.
Humans are like computers. We are theoretically[/b] predictable.. though this isnt always straightforward, most people do act in predictable ways. We collect information, process it and act on it.
Look at it like this. If you were born as hitler, with hitlers genes and had hitlers experiences, you would live your life the exact same way.

With the hitler example, your speaking physiological (that may be misspelled) but it wouldn't be that simple, for that to be accurate it would have to be pyschological as well ...such as the same personality traits. However let's say, if I'm understanding your point correctly, that when the time comes to make choices if the choices are already decided and therefore out of our control as to the types of choices, still the ability to chose one choice and not the other is an exercise in free will.

 

[Peace]

I'm making this thread to continue a debate I engaged Tawn in, over if free will does truly exsist. If anyone else has any thoughts on the subject then your posts are welcome. Anyways where were we?

Freedom is one of the essential human rights. The first question I may ask, are we born to be free? Do we have a free will?
Actually, I can clarify in what cases we do have free will and in what cases we do not have a free will.
Concerning our physical bodies, we do not have control over what's happening inside our bodies, how our muscles work... we do not have control over sneezing, breathing, digesting...etc. We do not choose our parents, sisters, brothers and grandparents. We don't have freedom over what we are physically.
HOWEVER, we do have control and freedom over our spirit, over our soul. This is the difference between us and Angels. Human beings are granted the free will to shape his/her soul as s/he wishes. God wants us to control ourselves, to behave in a certain way, He put to us moral codes to follow, He wants us to worship him BUT He doesn't force us. God doesn't robotize our minds. If we are robotized then we will behave in the same way. However, We people are different, we are not the same, each one of us behaves in a different way. Some are kind, some are not. Some are generous, some are not. Some are ready to help, others are not....
God created within any one of us good and evil, we have both sides. Then, because He is just and doesn't impose on us what He wills, he gave us the choice to choose which path we will take, which side we will follow, either good or evil side. This freedom to choose is up to us, so we either follow the good side and thus enjoying eternal bliss or to follow satan's path, evil and the outcome of such dicision will be eternal torture and destruction.
If God created us with no free will then all human beings will be worshiping God, for we will be then automatons. Actually, it's through free will that people change, either for the good or for the bad, it's we who choose our conclusion how it will be.

Peace be with you,
Peace

 

[michel]

My view is that every decision you take is a result of a precise 'arrangement' if you will of your experiences, psysiology and the particular circumstance you find yourself in.
Think of it in the same light as rolling a die onto a table. The die roll isnt truly random.. or free to turn up on whatever side it 'likes'.. the side it turns up on is a direct result of the precise dimensions of the die, the position it was thrown from and the power and spin with which it was thrown, the surface conditions of the table. If thrown from those infinitely precise conditions again, it will turn up the same every time.

For example, if I eat a lot of fish oils, it has been shown to improve concentration. THis may help me in analysing information, thus affecting the decisions I make. In fact there is strong evidence to link mood and psychology with diet.
It is nonsense to say that we choose our diet. Not all of us do - in fact most of us dont. Arguing that the person who prepares the food makes a choice is also nonsense.. we either all have free choice or none of us do. However, who chooses exactly how the food grows? This is all determined environmentally.. effectively it becomes an infinitely complicated chain of cause and effects.. see the butterfly effect.
Again, if I have had a traumatic experience it will also affect my decisions. I only say traumatic because these have the most obvious results on our decision making processes - but I think every single little experience we have, if it is even slightly memorised, will have an effect upon certain decisions we make.
Likewise, change even a small attribute of the situation we are faced with and it can effect our decision.

Dont take it as if I am saying that we dont make decisions and choices. We do, but the answers we will arrive at are an inevitable result of all the above factors. Much like the die. It seems to be random, but it actually an inevitable result of the exact conditions of the roll.
Humans are like computers. We are theoretically[/b] predictable.. though this isnt always straightforward, most people do act in predictable ways. We collect information, process it and act on it.
Look at it like this. If you were born as hitler, with hitlers genes and had hitlers experiences, you would live your life the exact same way.

"My view is that every decision you take is a result of a precise 'arrangement' if you will of your experiences, psysiology and the particular circumstance you find yourself in."

I'll go along with that, to some extent, but your experiences, Psychology ? - are what make us into who we are as individuals.

I think that there is a distinct flaw in what you are saying; I would have thought that your argument would mean that we would have to be 'clones' mentally, of our parents - do you think we are ?

 

[James the Persian]

Peace,

You seem to think Angels have no free will. Is this true in Islam (I really don't know) because it certainly isn't in Christianity. It's clear for us that Angels were created with free will because otherwise none of them could have rebelled against God. It's true that those we call Angels now all show allegiance to God, but those we call demons (the fallen Angels) clearly do not.

I believe both humans and Angels have free will (though not complete freedom) and I apologise to anyone else if my question to Peace seems a little off topic. I'm terribly unconvinced by the no free will opinions. If everything is so deterministic why is it that identical twins are not more alike?

James

 

[Peace]

Peace,

You seem to think Angels have no free will. Is this true in Islam (I really don't know) because it certainly isn't in Christianity. It's clear for us that Angels were created with free will because otherwise none of them could have rebelled against God. It's true that those we call Angels now all show allegiance to God, but those we call demons (the fallen Angels) clearly do not.

I believe both humans and Angels have free will (though not complete freedom) and I apologise to anyone else if my question to Peace seems a little off topic. I'm terribly unconvinced by the no free will opinions. If everything is so deterministic why is it that identical twins are not more alike?

James

James,

Angels are unlike us. Those that we call demons are not angels and never were Angels, they are jinn. According to Islam, the Jinn are not fallen angels, they are creatures who are created from fire. They have free will like us humans. They are also put in this life to be tested. They will also be punished if they don't follow God's path.
Satan is the first of the jinn who rebelled against God and disobeyed Him. The fact of his being worshipping God in heaven with the Angels is that because He used to worship God so much and so faithfully like the Angels and thus God elevated Him to the rank of an angel, but nevertheless he is still a demon. His arrogance and jealousy led him to disobey God when He asked him to prostrate himself to Adam. All the angels prostrate except him and thus God expelled him.
Hope it makes sense to you now James.

Peace be with you,
Peace

 

[James the Persian]

Peace,

Thanks for your answer. I hadn't realised that the Islamic belief in angels and demons was so different to ours.

Now I'll bow out because I don't want to change the subject of the thread. Sorry for the brief aside, everyone.

James

 

[Peace]

Peace,

Thanks for your answer. I hadn't realised that the Islamic belief in angels and demons was so different to ours.

James

You are welcome James

All the best!
Peace

 

[Tawn]

With the hitler example, your speaking physiological (that may be misspelled) but it wouldn't be that simple, for that to be accurate it would have to be pyschological as well

Well yes.. your lifetime sum of experiences, genetics and physiology would determine that... but yeah..

However let's say, if I'm understanding your point correctly, that when the time comes to make choices if the choices are already decided and therefore out of our control as to the types of choices, still the ability to chose one choice and not the other is an exercise in free will.

Depending on how you define free will.. but in the same way a computer which is programmed to respond to certain input in certain ways because of its programming is making decisions, and hence free will.. but that isnt, I think, the general understanding of free will.

 

[Tawn]

"My view is that every decision you take is a result of a precise 'arrangement' if you will of your experiences, psysiology and the particular circumstance you find yourself in."

I'll go along with that, to some extent, but your experiences, Psychology ? - are what make us into who we are as individuals.

Absolutely. Who we are is determined by external and internal forces - not any sense of free will. We can sometimes choose to change ourselves, but that is because of a particular experience which makes you question the way you are.

I think that there is a distinct flaw in what you are saying; I would have thought that your argument would mean that we would have to be 'clones' mentally, of our parents - do you think we are ?

No, the nature of genetics means that nobody is born as an 'empty slate'. We have already developed a unique physiology and to an extent a unique psychology. We already have latent aptitudes for certain things, even if we never make proper use of them in the future.
Children are not physical clones of their parents - so why would you say they should be mental clones?

 

[Malus 12:9]

but in the same way a computer which is programmed to respond to certain input in certain ways because of its programming is making decisions,

Correct, I do not think a computer can have free will at all.

Sorry to interrupt. Resume.

 

[SlipknotOzX]

free will is a mental perseption. It is your own opinion if you have free will. I think, personally, that I have a rare type of free will called Rebelious free will, which is more expressive than other free will.

 

[blueman]

When God created us, he gave us a mind, a will, emotions, along with a soul and spirit in addition to our flesh (both our physical body and internal nature). We have a free will to make choices in life (i.e., what we eat, who we relate or soicalize with, our political and religious views, etc.). If God did not give us a free will to choose, he would have pre-ordained that all men would be saved, because that is His will (1 Timothy 2:4), but He also knew that all men would not accept His Son as Saviour, based on man's free will to choose to accept or reject His offer of salvation. :jiggy:

 

[justa_gurl]

Tawn,

would you say that we are unable to separate ourselves from our experiences when making a decision?

would you say that any two people, when given the exact same information, would come to the same conclusion?

 

[Tawn]

Tawn,

would you say that we are unable to separate ourselves from our experiences when making a decision?

Yes I think thats the case. Of course our minds are constantly reviewing past information and it is possible for some experiences to become lost or even completely forgotten. Sometimes the timing of a situation can affect the decision made.

would you say that any two people, when given the exact same information, would come to the same conclusion?

Two people with the same past experiences, psychology, physiology, genetics etc.. yes.. because they are essentially the same person.

 

[justa_gurl]

Yes I think thats the case. Of course our minds are constantly reviewing past information and it is possible for some experiences to become lost or even completely forgotten. Sometimes the timing of a situation can affect the decision made.
Two people with the same past experiences, psychology, physiology, genetics etc.. yes.. because they are essentially the same person.

Okay. Just to clarify; Is it possible for any two people to have the exact same timing, external influences, past experiences, psychology, physiology, genetics... in which to come to the same conclusion?

 

[Yerda]

Okay. Just to clarify; Is it possible for any two people to have the exact same timing, external influences, past experiences, psychology, physiology, genetics... in which to come to the same conclusion?

This is all metaphysics to me, but, for these things to be exact, would it not be required for the two people to occupy the same space and time up until the point of this conclusion you speak of?