Do we have free will?

[TheKnight]

I've been questioning this lately too. I've come to see the world in a very Hindu way. I see many things of this world as an illusion, the soul as the true self, love and companionship as true emotions, etc. If the divine is in all, that means that when we act, really the divine is acting, so we're not acting at all, so we might think we have free will, but that's just our self telling us that. What do you think? I hope I didn't confuse anybody, LOL

Other.

Yes we have free will and no we don't. I look at the world like a giant frame-story of sorts. As the outermost frame there is God Himself who is the only true existence. Then you have the frame of our world with humanity in it, which exists in some form within the frame of God Himself. In essence, in the frame of our world we have free will. However, in terms of the big picture (IE the outermost frame), we don't even really exist.

Sort of like a book, the characters in the story have freewill in terms of their existence in the story. But really, they don't exist outside of the author. Similarly, we have free will to act either morally or immorally in this world. However, the big picture is that God is the only true reality and anything we think about our existence is nothing more than an illusion of sorts.

 

[Danny Heim]

Hi, free will is an empowerment to have in an experiential way, the ability to fulfill good and evil.

Either inadvertently or purposely the deeper consciousness will need to experience evil to understand good. Therefore all human endeavors that are observed can be understood in this way.
As some say we are all actors on the stage of life.

Self is empowered by the will and includes the ability to get into the minds of others and stir up feelings and this brings conflict.

Being in God's Will is to be empowered from the center of your being, the heart, in a perfect Nature and perfect Love.

I like that

 

[Zadok]

I've been questioning this lately too. I've come to see the world in a very Hindu way. I see many things of this world as an illusion, the soul as the true self, love and companionship as true emotions, etc. If the divine is in all, that means that when we act, really the divine is acting, so we're not acting at all, so we might think we have free will, but that's just our self telling us that. What do you think? I hope I didn't confuse anybody, LOL

Unless we had input into our lives before we were born there is no possibility that anything we do in this life is an expression of free will.

Zadok

 

[Benoni]

People can choose a Coke over a pepsi, a Chevy over a Toyota (if they have the money), but they did NOT choose their parents, when, where they were born, what color of skin they are, what country they were born in, in most cases what religion they are and they cannot choose their own salvation.

Like I posted earlier the word freewill or choice is not a Biblical term it is a reliogious term in fac the Bible speaks to the CONTRARY.

 

[Beta]

The Bible (God) says we get to choose life (eternal) or death (eternal) Deut.30v19.
Initially there are only 2 choices open to man. If we choose life we choose God and consequently obedience to a new life with Him - we learn to do HIS WILL. That means we no longer practice our own free will.
If we choose to do things our own way we are choosing death which allows man to practice free will as long as he is humanly alive.
We can't have it both ways.
Selfwill = death
Godswill = life.

 

[Onkara]

I choose "other" because Brahman does not act through anyone, rather Brahman is the witness of action, your and my action. We act because or Karma and prakriti (gunas).

Whilst you (or I) believe we are choosing our actions and decisions then "free will" exists.

When we come to know that I am beyond the action, yet aware of the action (which is driven by karma and gunas), then the riddle of "free will" is no longer applicable and the idea can be dropped on our approach towards knowing Brahman Itself.

The repulsion from the idea that we do not have free will comes from the fear that our desires will not be achieved if we don't do something about it and also from the fear that our actions will be undesirable if we "give up our responsibility for their action".

 

[Eliot Wild]

Unless we had input into our lives before we were born there is no possibility that anything we do in this life is an expression of free will.

Zadok

With all due respect, would you mind elaborating on this statement? You very well may be correct in your assessment, but I don't understand how you've reached your conclusion. Perhaps you could flush it out a bit.

Again, I will concede you might be right. However, without some kind of explanation of your thinking process, there is no way one can really challenge or confirm your conclusion.

I will say this, it seems to me, however, that superlative claims can be a bit slippery and hard to prove. Whenever we start demanding that "there is no possibility" of this or that, we more often than not are making leaps of faith rather than engaging in rational contemplation.

Many things, by conceptual definition, are inherently impossible; this is true. For example, it is impossible to make a circular square. But I don't see this sort of conflict at work in the concept of freewill existing outside of pre-existent "input".

What must this input be?
How would it be assimilated if we weren't yet born?
Why does freewill depend on it?

 

[Raithie]

We have free will.
Ofcourse, you could argue that we only make decisions based on our genes etc., but our genetic makeup is ultimately what makes us us. So from then on, we have free will.
Or maybe I'm babbling. I'm too tired right now

 

[Zadok]

Thank you for asking – what we must determine is; what is an expression of “free will”? For example if we are given a choice what is behind one of three closed doors there is no possible way we can chose based on our individual will. Without knowing the outcome and all other possibilities any choice will not be an expression of individual will.

Now let me give an example – who would “choose” to go to work today if they knew they would be killed in an automobile accident during the commute? The problem with choices we think we are making is that we really do not know for sure the outcome. A true expression of will must be made with full and complete knowledge. In this uncertain life we do not have that kind of access to anything. In essence we all live by faith – and we have all had enough experience to realize our will is ambushed quite regularly.

The only possibility is if all the choices we make in this life were previously made before we were born. Many feel and believe that G-d knew such things and so there are legitimate discussions if he is responsible for whatever outcome. It appears to me that if it is possible G-d knows the outcome that that knowledge had to exist for him to know it. If it existed then there is a possibility that such knowledge was available to us as well. My point is that if someone is to believe that they have free will then the only possible conclusion that I can see to make such a belief true is if they existed before they were born, had access to the outcome of their life and pre-selected or pre programmed their life and thus we are living a pre-written program – not based just on G-d knowing the outcome but us as well. Then to insure that we execute our pre-set program we are born without any knowledge of any possible choices that could “short circuit” our free will.

Zadok

 

[Peacewise]

Our choices are limited, yet we have free will.

 

[Eliot Wild]

Thank you for asking – what we must determine is; what is an expression of “free will”? For example if we are given a choice what is behind one of three closed doors there is no possible way we can chose based on our individual will. Without knowing the outcome and all other possibilities any choice will not be an expression of individual will.

Now let me give an example – who would “choose” to go to work today if they knew they would be killed in an automobile accident during the commute? The problem with choices we think we are making is that we really do not know for sure the outcome. A true expression of will must be made with full and complete knowledge. In this uncertain life we do not have that kind of access to anything. In essence we all live by faith – and we have all had enough experience to realize our will is ambushed quite regularly.

The only possibility is if all the choices we make in this life were previously made before we were born. Many feel and believe that G-d knew such things and so there are legitimate discussions if he is responsible for whatever outcome. It appears to me that if it is possible G-d knows the outcome that that knowledge had to exist for him to know it. If it existed then there is a possibility that such knowledge was available to us as well. My point is that if someone is to believe that they have free will then the only possible conclusion that I can see to make such a belief true is if they existed before they were born, had access to the outcome of their life and pre-selected or pre programmed their life and thus we are living a pre-written program – not based just on G-d knowing the outcome but us as well. Then to insure that we execute our pre-set program we are born without any knowledge of any possible choices that could “short circuit” our free will.

Zadok

Cool. I see what you are saying and don't necessarily disagree with it, at least not as you have defined "freewill".

However, though I can speak for no one else, I believe many on this thread are defining "freewill" differently than you have.

I would daresay the most widely held definition of freewill doesn't necessitate "ultimate" knowledge. Though freewill wasn't stipulated as such in the OP, I still believe most people define freewill most simply as the freedom to make choices without constraint. Given that simplistic definition, it doesn't require we have knowledge of the consequences of our actions for our actions to be free.

But I see your point. Thanks for the reply.

 

[Zadok]

Cool. I see what you are saying and don't necessarily disagree with it, at least not as you have defined "freewill".

However, though I can speak for no one else, I believe many on this thread are defining "freewill" differently than you have.

I would daresay the most widely held definition of freewill doesn't necessitate "ultimate" knowledge. Though freewill wasn't stipulated as such in the OP, I still believe most people define freewill most simply as the freedom to make choices without constraint. Given that simplistic definition, it doesn't require we have knowledge of the consequences of our actions for our actions to be free.

But I see your point. Thanks for the reply.

Thanks for your input - I have encountered the definition as you have stated it before. However the word “will” causes me to wonder. Unless a choice is an expression of individual will how can we say we exercised our will? If we do not know what we are selecting we kid ourselves thinking we have any control or expression of real will. The point is that ignorance is a constraint.

Zadok

 

[Eliot Wild]

. . . ignorance is a constraint.

Zadok

Ohhhhh, I like that line. I may steal it . . . do you mind?

I can foresee a conversation between characters in some fiction piece I might one day write, and in this conversation one character might use that line: "ignorance is a constraint", in this very same context. My characters often discuss philosophical dilemmas in my fiction.

That really is good.