Do we need help?

[Mr. Hair]

In Taoism are we able to achieve One with Tao on our own, or do we need help?

I certainly wouldn't know, but I suspect that we don't-don't require help to be 'One with Tao'. (Whatever that is)

Though, in honesty, I tend to find such questions a little... Unusual. For myself, a part of Taoism has tended to be that wherever you are is wherever you are, and entirely valid in that. Trying to divide between 'needing' and 'not-needing' help seems to be setting up a false dilemma.

THis reminds me of the zen koan... "Who are you?"

To which I might respond, "I am me."

 

[Master Vigil]

But the tao always appears as paradox, to us (yin/yang). You're trying to work out that which can't be worked out by the human mind, because we exist within the tao. We are subjects of the paradox (yin/yang).

I agree. And referred to that when I said that the ego cannot drop the ego. Because we cannot possibly understand something that we are a part of and "within" by first thinking that we are apart, separate, and "without".

All that can be done from our perspective is to humble ourselves before the divine mystery, or fight with it in ignorance. Either way, we remain subjects of the paradox. Either way, we play our part in the flow of existence. The only difference is that when we live humbly and in accord with the flow of being that surrounds and envelops us, we can find joy and peace in that experience. But if we live always at war with that flow, trying to wring out of it our own desires and our own righteousness, then we will likely end up frustrated and exhausted.

Pretty much. So there is no sacred sacrificial god/man that needs to help us find salvation. Whew! When humans are born, they are born in that humble state you referred to. But as we grow human society impends upon us a philosophical and spiritual doom. I speak of preconceived ideas, worry, stress, unnecessary desires, etc... Society tells us that that is normal, and preferred. If left unchecked, the human being will likely never get out of that spiritually doomed state. As you said before, they will always live at war with that flow, trying to wring out of it their own desires and righteousness. What will stop them from ending up frustrated and exhausted within that spiritually doomed state?

 

[PureX]

What will stop them from ending up frustrated and exhausted within that spiritually doomed state?

Nothing. But then nothing is making us live that way, either. So we can simply surrender at any time, if we choose.

 

[Master Vigil]

Nothing. But then nothing is making us live that way, either. So we can simply surrender at any time, if we choose.

Nothing? If nothing is the cause, then there would be no effect. But there is an effect. We have just been discussing it. And if we can simply surrender, by choice, that would imply that I have control over something. But "I" as a concept cannot do anything. So how can someone simply surrender themselves without any influence?

 

[Buttons*]

Nothing? If nothing is the cause, then there would be no effect. But there is an effect. We have just been discussing it. And if we can simply surrender, by choice, that would imply that I have control over something. But "I" as a concept cannot do anything. So how can someone simply surrender themselves without any influence?

Doesn't it just happen when one understands the Oneness? Not by doing, but when an awakening happens. For me, it usually isn't brought on any more than by walking outside. Sometimes I feel it for no reason at all. It's got nothing to do with aciton or inaction, it's understanding of the mind and of the heart. Doesn't come through making anything happen or concentrating on it. That just makes the awakening fall away, and again one is left with stress and worry about things that are not under ones control.

I'm sorry I didn't understand your original question! I hope this is a clearer answer to what i think... or at least it's relevant. Sorry if it's not!

 

[Master Vigil]

Doesn't it just happen when one understands the Oneness? Not by doing, but when an awakening happens. For me, it usually isn't brought on any more than by walking outside. Sometimes I feel it for no reason at all. It's got nothing to do with aciton or inaction, it's understanding of the mind and of the heart. Doesn't come through making anything happen or concentrating on it. That just makes the awakening fall away, and again one is left with stress and worry about things that are not under ones control.

We can understand Tao by understanding nature. You are correct in that things just "happen" in nature. There is no real "doing". However, the things that just happen, happen in a succession that naturally sets up the "happening" to happen. Meaning, clouds don't "just form" without the correct influence of water in the air. So your awakening by just walking outside was influenced by just walking outside. No matter how small, minute, minuscule, etc... of an influence it is. It is still influenced. Is anyone understanding this?

I'm sorry I didn't understand your original question! I hope this is a clearer answer to what i think... or at least it's relevant. Sorry if it's not!

I think the majority of people did not understand my first question. Probably because they are too focused on the words that I used. Because the first thing people starting rebuking was words.

 

[Master Vigil]

Has anyone ever thought that the help, influence, etc... that I might be asking about here is Tao?

 

[YmirGF]

Hehe. I maintain that the individual can *grok* the Tao by subtracting themselves from the equation of life and time via meditation. We are a bit more incredible than most appreciate. The thing is, when we "return" we are back where we started... within the Toa and only have our memories of the views we beheld while we were outside. The trick is simply to learn to stop thinking, and move into the centre of being. "There" you will find the doorway that leads to your greater identity which is beyond the Tao.

Small note: One thing I have been pondering of late is that Oneness is possibly the final illusion of our dualistic reality. I could be wrong, but my view that leads me to say that is a trifle difficult to boil down into mere words.

 

[zenzero]

Are you looking for an answere?
to the Question
Do we need help?
Who is this *WE*?
If this is something seperate from the whole then surely something needs to be done but if this *WE* is just a part of the whole then nothing needs to be done. Alls built IN.
Love & rgds

 

[Francine]

I agree. And referred to that when I said that the ego cannot drop the ego. Because we cannot possibly understand something that we are a part of and "within" by first thinking that we are apart, separate, and "without".

Then let go of the desire to understand and just be a part, within.

 

[PureX]

To "surrender" is to stop doing. And to stop thinking. To surrender is to just let go of the automatic human desire to control our environment (both internal and external) through intellect. When we let go, our thoughts begin to scramble, and then to ramble, and then finally to cease trying to make sense of things. If we remain in this quiet state, the thoughts will begin to sort of die out all together, like a light slowly growing dimmer as it's power source is cut off. And eventually we're no longer thinking at all, but just being. We're just present, in the moment. Breathing in, breathing out, feeling the pull of gravity on our bodies. Letting the light and sound waves of our immediate environment roll over us, identified, but unmolested. Unanalyzed. Uncontrolled. We are one with our own place and time in existence. We are finally "real". We are finally true, as the truth is "what is". And there is nothing to know, or say, or to be done about it. Because we are at one with the tao.

 

[Francine]

We are finally "real". We are finally true, as the truth is "what is". And there is nothing to know, or say, or to be done about it. Because we are at one with the tao.

The woman of wisdom is so heavily into harmony with Tao that nothing else matters. Her every breath is wuwei. She does nothing for the people but channels harmony to them simply by being in harmony with Tao. She gives up caring what the people think of her or what happens to them because only harmony with Tao is important. She is a hermit, no matter whether she lives in a cave or in the most crowded apartment.

 

[PureX]

The woman of wisdom is so heavily into harmony with Tao that nothing else matters.

Everything is a part of the tao, so there is nothing to be left out, or undone. This is why she need not concern herself.

Her every breath is wuwei. She does nothing for the people but channels harmony to them simply by being in harmony with Tao. She gives up caring what the people think of her or what happens to them because only harmony with Tao is important. She is a hermit, no matter whether she lives in a cave or in the most crowded apartment.

"Every being in the universe
is an expression of the Tao.
It springs into existence,
unconscious, perfect, free,
takes on a physical body,
lets circumstances complete it.
That is why every being
spontaneously honors the Tao.

The Tao gives birth to all beings,
nourishes them, maintains them,
cares for them, comforts them, protects them,
takes them back to itself,
creating without possessing,
acting without expecting,
guiding without interfering.
That is why love of the Tao
is in the very nature of things."

From the Tao te Ching

 

[Somkid]

The Tao Te Ching is philosophy that has been twisted into religion which was extremely annoying to Lao Tzu and the reason for his departure from China. Although the Tao has a lot in common with Chan Buddhism it is simply a different way of looking at something without having to put a god into the equation.

 

[Francine]

The Tao gives birth to all beings,
nourishes them, maintains them,
cares for them, comforts them, protects them,
takes them back to itself,
creating without possessing,
acting without expecting,
guiding without interfering.
That is why love of the Tao
is in the very nature of things."

Tao is the source of all living things, and they are nourished by Tao's power. They are influenced by the other living things around them, and they are shaped by their circumstances. Everything respects Tao and honors its power.

 

[PureX]

The Tao Te Ching is philosophy that has been twisted into religion which was extremely annoying to Lao Tzu and the reason for his departure from China. Although the Tao has a lot in common with Chan Buddhism it is simply a different way of looking at something without having to put a god into the equation.

Yes, i agree that the philosophy of tao is often confused with the various religious superstitions and their gods that have come to be called "taoism" these days. But Lao Tzu himself would acknowledge that such religious superstitions, and their respective god-concepts, are just part of the "tao of man".

 

[Francine]

The Tao Te Ching is philosophy that has been twisted into religion which was extremely annoying to Lao Tzu and the reason for his departure from China. Although the Tao has a lot in common with Chan Buddhism it is simply a different way of looking at something without having to put a god into the equation.

I believe the only time "God" comes up is in TTC 4. All of reality comes after the Lord of Creation, except the Eternal Feminine, which seems to come before. The nature of the Eternal Feminine is to yield, hence the woman of wisdom doesn't insist it came before. Thus she says, 'it seems.'"

 

[Francine]

Lao Tzu himself would acknowledge that such religious superstitions, and their respective god-concepts, are just part of the "tao of man".

That's part of it, when people say there is a "tao of man" or a "tao of war" or a "tao of Pooh" or a "tao of driving". Men and War and Pooh and Driving are all governed by the nameless Way. How could it be otherwise? It literally goes without saying.

 

[zenzero]

Friends,
This nameless WAY is to be witnessed.
Discussions without witnessing will be endless
Witnessing will carry forward solving the mystry.
Love & rgds
n.b. Not stating that we should not discuss, we should BUT our primary goal should be witnessing is what I like to state.

 

[Somkid]

To achieve oneness with the Tao is to achieve oneness with nature this does not apply to understanding of the concept of "salvation" in most religions. Buddhism and the Tao mix rather well because to achieve "salvation" in Buddhism you must be at one with the nature of everything and understand the true nature of the Tao or everything.