Do We Really Need This Kind of Bigotry?

[Alceste]

Ya'll both aah so ignant !

OMG how u can evn tipe that sentins with out cry.

 

[Alceste]

Sort of but shunning is avoiding a person, ostracization is when you refuse to acknowledge the very existence of the person, they are dead to you.

I was thinking of the more old fashioned kind.

 

[Levite]

Only insofar that they harm none.

So people who would be "harmed" by being expected not to do things that are detrimental to the existence of their society render such laws unethical?! Sounds like what you want is an un-society, an anarchy of individual whim.

Did she break some law that would make her a criminal? If so what should her punishment be according to that law?

Yes. Intermarriage and apostasy are both contrary to Jewish law. Her "punishment" is having to live with the consequences of her actions: that she cannot participate in most aspects of Jewish ritual life unless her husband converts or they divorce, and until she renounces her apostasy. And that she is considered a sinner, and most observant Jews will choose not to associate with her.

Of course, if she has truly rejected her Jewish identity and decided to act like a Muslim instead, those consequences shouldn't bother her much, and certainly shouldn't make her feel inclined to alter her behavior. It should only be an issue for her if she still wished to call herself Jewish, and participate in Jewish communal life.

 

[dantech]

So symbolically putting her to death is the answer?

Cut off from our people doesn't mean put to death...

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I
Did you read his post where he said that if a Jew becomes a Christian or Muslim, they're cut off from their people?

Apparently not. Would you mind referencing it?

 

[oldbadger]

Yes. Intermarriage and apostasy are both contrary to Jewish law. Her "punishment" is having to live with the consequences of her actions: that she cannot participate in most aspects of Jewish ritual life unless her husband converts or they divorce, and until she renounces her apostasy. And that she is considered a sinner, and most observant Jews will choose not to associate with her.

Dear oh dear........

So you don't want your sons or daughters to marry anybody who is not a Jew..........
That's a big list of humanity that your children are banned from marrying.....
And if they should do so they would be shunned........ would have done wrong..... worthy of punishment....

My wife's father does not want his sons or daughters to marry anybody that is not local (S.E London) and white skinned.......
That's a big list of humanity that his children are (were) banned from marrying.......
And if they should do so they would be shunned...... would have done wrong ...... worthy of punishment.........

You are not bigoted or prejudiced in any way.
......... and nor is he...............

You should have a drink together one day.
Now that would be something to witness.
Two completely reasonable people with no prejudice at all, simply got their principles.

 

[Alceste]

Dear oh dear........

So you don't want your sons or daughters to marry anybody who is not a Jew..........
That's a big list of humanity that your children are banned from marrying.....
And if they should do so they would be shunned........ would have done wrong..... worthy of punishment....

My wife's father does not want his sons or daughters to marry anybody that is not local (S.E London) and white skinned.......
That's a big list of humanity that his children are (were) banned from marrying.......
And if they should do so they would be shunned...... would have done wrong ...... worthy of punishment.........

You are not bigoted or prejudiced in any way.
......... and nor is he...............

You should have a drink together one day.
Now that would be something to witness.
Two completely reasonable people with no prejudice at all, simply got their principles.

Hang on, though - British people haven't hung together and survived as a distinct culture for thousands of years despite the incursion of all kinds of external pressure...

Oh wait...

 

[Prophet]

Cut off from our people doesn't mean put to death...

Perhaps now, but according to the Torah:

If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.

 

[Levite]

Dear oh dear........

So you don't want your sons or daughters to marry anybody who is not a Jew..........
That's a big list of humanity that your children are banned from marrying.....
And if they should do so they would be shunned........ would have done wrong..... worthy of punishment....

My wife's father does not want his sons or daughters to marry anybody that is not local (S.E London) and white skinned.......
That's a big list of humanity that his children are (were) banned from marrying.......
And if they should do so they would be shunned...... would have done wrong ...... worthy of punishment.........

You are not bigoted or prejudiced in any way.
......... and nor is he...............

You should have a drink together one day.
Now that would be something to witness.
Two completely reasonable people with no prejudice at all, simply got their principles.

By all means, feel free to keep making false analogies.

Racism is a fabrication of whole cloth, founded on nothing but irrational fears. Preservation of a culture is something else altogether.

No, Jews should not marry non-Jews. However, non-Jews are free to convert to Judaism, regardless of their original ethnicity, race, or whatnot. To be accounted part of a "race" is meaningless, just the happenstance of skin color. To be part of a culture involves not just blood but a shared history, languages, a vast body of literature, art, music, religion, philosophy-- the carefully preserved works of literally thousands of years, often passed on with great cost of shed blood and tears.

I wonder if you would be so cavalier to dismiss the value of a whole rich and ancient culture if it were some other culture besides the Jewish one. Are you equally contemptuous of Indian cultures? Native American cultures? African cultures? Arab and Iranian cultures? Chinese culture? Japanese culture? Australian aboriginal culture?

Do you dislike the attempt of any culture to preserve its ancient ways and to persist in the face of Western cultural imperialism and assimilation?

Or is it just us?

 

[Levite]

Perhaps now, but according to the Torah:

If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.

You might wish to investigate what it took to actually carry out the death penalty in Jewish Law, and how rare executions actually were, back in the day 2000-odd years ago that we actually had rabbinical courts with capital jurisdiction. Bringing in a verse from Torah, without the context of the Oral Torah, and without any commentary or any reflection from the Jewish legal authorities of the past 1500 years, really amounts to little more than a red herring.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

So people who would be "harmed" by being expected not to do things that are detrimental to the existence of their society render such laws unethical?! Sounds like what you want is an un-society, an anarchy of individual whim.



Yes. Intermarriage and apostasy are both contrary to Jewish law. Her "punishment" is having to live with the consequences of her actions: that she cannot participate in most aspects of Jewish ritual life unless her husband converts or they divorce, and until she renounces her apostasy. And that she is considered a sinner, and most observant Jews will choose not to associate with her.

Of course, if she has truly rejected her Jewish identity and decided to act like a Muslim instead, those consequences shouldn't bother her much, and certainly shouldn't make her feel inclined to alter her behavior. It should only be an issue for her if she still wished to call herself Jewish, and participate in Jewish communal life.

Well Levite, I have to say we have to disagree to disagree. Because foremost regardless of my religion (I do have one) or race and ethnicity (I have several of those) or creed (I understand many of those), what I value above all else is the greater and shared humanity of us all, and I value the individual right to life and self determination of those who share my humanity. Good luck with your tribalism because our greater humanity is much more important to me.

 

[Avi1001]

Please share your thoughts on this:

Rabbi reverses interfaith marriage policy | Los Angeles | Jewish Journal

And this:

http://www.reformjudaism.org/practi...my-fiancée-not-jewish-and-doesnt-want-convert

As you can see, the reform movements are the leading thinkers in this area.

By all means, feel free to keep making false analogies.

Racism is a fabrication of whole cloth, founded on nothing but irrational fears. Preservation of a culture is something else altogether.

No, Jews should not marry non-Jews. However, non-Jews are free to convert to Judaism, regardless of their original ethnicity, race, or whatnot. To be accounted part of a "race" is meaningless, just the happenstance of skin color. To be part of a culture involves not just blood but a shared history, languages, a vast body of literature, art, music, religion, philosophy-- the carefully preserved works of literally thousands of years, often passed on with great cost of shed blood and tears.

I wonder if you would be so cavalier to dismiss the value of a whole rich and ancient culture if it were some other culture besides the Jewish one. Are you equally contemptuous of Indian cultures? Native American cultures? African cultures? Arab and Iranian cultures? Chinese culture? Japanese culture? Australian aboriginal culture?

Do you dislike the attempt of any culture to preserve its ancient ways and to persist in the face of Western cultural imperialism and assimilation?

Or is it just us?

 

[Prophet]

You might wish to investigate what it took to actually carry out the death penalty in Jewish Law, and how rare executions actually were, back in the day 2000-odd years ago that we actually had rabbinical courts with capital jurisdiction. Bringing in a verse from Torah, without the context of the Oral Torah, and without any commentary or any reflection from the Jewish legal authorities of the past 1500 years, really amounts to little more than a red herring.

Why write into the law a regulation obligating one to put apostates to death if there was no intention of putting apostates to death and holding people who might otherwise renounce hostage by fear to their own religion and people?

 

[Alceste]

By all means, feel free to keep making false analogies.

Racism is a fabrication of whole cloth, founded on nothing but irrational fears. Preservation of a culture is something else altogether.

No, Jews should not marry non-Jews. However, non-Jews are free to convert to Judaism, regardless of their original ethnicity, race, or whatnot. To be accounted part of a "race" is meaningless, just the happenstance of skin color. To be part of a culture involves not just blood but a shared history, languages, a vast body of literature, art, music, religion, philosophy-- the carefully preserved works of literally thousands of years, often passed on with great cost of shed blood and tears.

I wonder if you would be so cavalier to dismiss the value of a whole rich and ancient culture if it were some other culture besides the Jewish one. Are you equally contemptuous of Indian cultures? Native American cultures? African cultures? Arab and Iranian cultures? Chinese culture? Japanese culture? Australian aboriginal culture?

Do you dislike the attempt of any culture to preserve its ancient ways and to persist in the face of Western cultural imperialism and assimilation?

Or is it just us?

Native Americans generally don't subscribe to the doctrine of anti-miscegenation or shun people who marry outside their tribe. If they did, I would certainly call it bigoted. They nevertheless have a strong and thriving culture and a growing population in my country. (They'd do even better if we were not so paternalistic in our dealings with them.)

It's not contempt for the preservation of culture you're seeing here. It's contempt for the doctrine of anti-miscegenation. And it applies with equal force no matter who subscribes to it or where they come from.

Also, it's a pretty mild form of contempt in the grand scheme of things, so there's no reason for you to take it personally, or even to mind, IMO. We're not always gonna see eye to eye on stuff. It's the human condition.

 

[xkatz]

Please share your thoughts on this:

Rabbi reverses interfaith marriage policy | Los Angeles | Jewish Journal

And this:

http://www.reformjudaism.org/practi...my-fiancée-not-jewish-and-doesnt-want-convert

As you can see, the reform movements are the leading thinkers in this area.

Yes and this is why reform Judaism has inspired so many Jews to learn about their faith, continue with Judaism, and attempt to follow Jewish customs and mitzvot.

[/extreme sarcasm]

 

[Avi1001]

Yes and this is why reform Judaism has inspired so many Jews to learn about their faith and attempt to follow Jewish mitzvot.

[/extreme sarcasm]

Yes, xkatz, this is a debate sub-, so you can really let the fur fly here.

Unfortunately, you are showing your near complete lack of understanding of reform Judaism. These issues have been thought through deeply and with consistency, and you are completely unaware of their significance. Enjoy your ignorance.

Oh, yes, please at least read the 2 articles I posted.

 

[xkatz]

Unfortunately, you are showing your near complete lack of understanding of reform Judaism. These issues have been thought through deeply and with consistency, and you are completely unaware of their significance. Enjoy your ignorance.

Deeply and consistent in regards to what? Historical Jewish praxis and tradition? I certainly think not.

I understand reform Judaism but I also understand why such extreme religious liberalism does not appeal to many people- including Jews. What motivation does reform Judaism give to Jews to learn about Judaism, wrap tefillin, do the 3 daily prayers, or attempt even the most minimalistic forms of keeping kosher or Shabbos?

 

[Avi1001]

:rainbow1:

Deeply and consistent in regards to what? Historical Jewish praxis and tradition? I certainly think not.

I understand reform Judaism but I also understand why such extreme religious liberalism does not appeal to many people- including Jews. What motivation does reform Judaism give to Jews to learn about Judaism, wrap tefillin, do the 3 daily prayers, or attempt even the most minimalistic forms of keeping kosher or Shabbos?

You say you understand reform Judaism, but your words reflect you have no idea.

Reform Judaism has a rich tradition, it's ideas often attributed to starting with Moses Mendelsohn. Was he some sort of amateur ? He is known as "The Third Moses".

You believe following prescribed ritual makes you a spiritual Jew. Fine, but do not have the nerve to criticize those that follow the ethical laws (Halacha).

In terms of numbers, reform Jews far outnumber the other Jewish movements. Yes, Judaism has changed a great deal from your tribalist thinking. It would be fun to continue this discussion .

 

[oldbadger]

By all means, feel free to keep making false analogies.

You are in denial. But that's ok, because so is my Father-in-law. Like I said, you are so similar in your discriminating ways.

Racism is a fabrication of whole cloth, founded on nothing but irrational fears. Preservation of a culture is something else altogether.

My Father-in-law would agree with you. He could talk to you about the preservation of his culture for as long as you could talk to him about yours.

No, Jews should not marry non-Jews. However, non-Jews are free to convert to Judaism, regardless of their original ethnicity, race, or whatnot. To be accounted part of a "race" is meaningless, just the happenstance of skin color. To be part of a culture involves not just blood but a shared history, languages, a vast body of literature, art, music, religion, philosophy-- the carefully preserved works of literally thousands of years, often passed on with great cost of shed blood and tears.

You see? The analogy gets stronger...... you could not become a Gravesend Brickie, and my Father-in-Law could not become a Jew, because he does not have the blood, history, languages, etc.....
It's no good you playing the 'race' card at him...... He would play his 'religion' card to match it. You both discriminate, but you are both reasonable respectable people.....

I wonder if you would be so cavalier to dismiss the value of a whole rich and ancient culture if it were some other culture besides the Jewish one.

Don't you play your anti-semite card on me matey. I begged a Rabbi to bury my gentile father, who did so in full rabinnical regalia...... and a Jewish Lord attended the funeral. I will never forget that day........... and strangely, if you had been present, nor would you...... but I suspect for differing reasons. Would you have approved? I think that you might have discriminated, possibly?

Are you equally contemptuous of Indian cultures? Native American cultures? African cultures? Arab and Iranian cultures? Chinese culture? Japanese culture? Australian aboriginal culture?

I would invite any of those cultures into my home and extend my hospitality, food, drink and warmth...... have done to some already. And they would take food with me. I would invite you.... would you take my food?

Do you dislike the attempt of any culture to preserve its ancient ways and to persist in the face of Western cultural imperialism and assimilation?

...western cultural imperialism....... what bulldust is that?
Aye. I say Aye! In order to bring peace on Earth I would support assimilation, whilst respecting the rights of individuals to who wish to hold to their cultural identities.

Or is it just us?

No..... it's not you, like my Father-in-law....... I would take food and drink with you.

 

[xkatz]

Reform Judaism has a rich tradition, it's ideas often attributed to starting with Moses Mendelsohn. Was he some sort of amateur ? He is known as "The Third Moses".

He is as fallible as anyone else. And he certainly doesn't have the stature of Moses.

You believe following prescribed ritual makes you a spiritual Jew. Fine, but do not have the nerve to criticize those that follow the ethical laws (Halacha).

I follow ethical laws too I hate to tell ya.

In terms of numbers, reform Jews far outnumber the other Jewish movements. Yes, Judaism has changed a great deal from your tribalist thinking. It would be fun to continue this discussion .

I wonder how many of these reform Jews attend synagogue on more than a once or twice per year basis? I wonder how many of them could daven or wrap tefillin on their own? I wonder how many have read any Jewish philosophy? How many of them continue practicing Judaism? Fast on Tish B'av? Those numbers are what really matter.