Do we still need organized religion?

[sandandfoam]

you seen what happens when morons all start doing there own thing (example see internet)

shoot, that's us isn't it?

 

[Surya Deva]

Why is organized religion required?

An organized religion is required as a moralising force in society. This cannot be done by school education itself or science by itself. Noble values can only be taught by first defining what noble values are. One has to define noble actions and thoughts. Science cannot do this and nor can democracy and seculaism, as one is lead into problems like moral relativism and this manifests as post-modernism. Today our society is more post-modernist and its morality is begining to decay and it is manifesting as chaos in society.

Defining what constitutes noble thoughts and actions can only be done by a religion. In fact noble thoughts and actions cannot be taught, they have to be cultivated through spirituality. They require development of ones consciousness. Again this can only be taught by religion.

At some point spirituality and science will come to a confluence. I can already see it happening

 

[gnomon]

It's pretty sad people think "organized religion" only entails some central organization dictating dogma or when one can celebrate holiday's.

Doing away with organized religion is doing away with religion itself.

Not something I find wholly objectionable.

 

[rojse]

It's pretty sad people think "organized religion" only entails some central organization dictating dogma or when one can celebrate holiday's.

Doing away with organized religion is doing away with religion itself.

Not something I find wholly objectionable.

I disagree, many of the people on this site manage to come up with their own religious beliefs and value systems that do not require, or did not receive assistance from organised religious dogmas.

 

[Shams]

We need to learn and undestad the true religion.. Acting is a difficult thing to do.. But when you know it makes t asier the search is the beginning.

 

[rojse]

We need to learn and undestad the true religion.. Acting is a difficult thing to do.. But when you know it makes t asier the search is the beginning.

Welcome to RF Shams.

If we are searching at the beginning, does that mean we need to go back to older religions, then?

 

[blackout]

Do we still need organized religion? What does it do for us that we still need it?

Well, I certainly don't.

It does nothing for me that I "still" need it,
and quite the contrary.

 

[Draka]

Why is organized religion required?

An organized religion is required as a moralising force in society. This cannot be done by school education itself or science by itself. Noble values can only be taught by first defining what noble values are. One has to define noble actions and thoughts. Science cannot do this and nor can democracy and seculaism, as one is lead into problems like moral relativism and this manifests as post-modernism. Today our society is more post-modernist and its morality is begining to decay and it is manifesting as chaos in society.

Defining what constitutes noble thoughts and actions can only be done by a religion. In fact noble thoughts and actions cannot be taught, they have to be cultivated through spirituality. They require development of ones consciousness. Again this can only be taught by religion.

At some point spirituality and science will come to a confluence. I can already see it happening

First off, morals are not dependent upon religion. Second, even for those who have morals rooted in religious beliefs there is no requirement that those religions be organized in any way. My faith has morals that are integral to it and it's not an organized religion in the slightest. If you can't count on a single human being being able to reason morals for themselves, without it being dictated to them, then what does that say about the state of our species and our civilization?

It's pretty sad people think "organized religion" only entails some central organization dictating dogma or when one can celebrate holiday's.

Doing away with organized religion is doing away with religion itself.

Not something I find wholly objectionable.

How does doing away with organized religion do away with religion itself??? There are religions that aren't organized. Just how do you define "organized religion" then?

 

[Surya Deva]

First off, morals are not dependent upon religion. Second, even for those who have morals rooted in religious beliefs there is no requirement that those religions be organized in any way. My faith has morals that are integral to it and it's not an organized religion in the slightest. If you can't count on a single human being being able to reason morals for themselves, without it being dictated to them, then what does that say about the state of our species and our civilization?

No morals are not dependent on religion. Morals are innate, however not all innate things are accessible. We need help to find some things.

If we count on a single human being to reason for themselves then invariably they will err. First of all, morals cannot be reached through reason alone, morals have to be realised. No matter how much one reasons they cannot prove any moral, because reason cannot touch it. They will end up in a dead-end called moral relativism. This is a dangerous philosophy which basically means there are no morals, it's all subjective and relative.

There is a saying in my religion. It goes: There is no knowledge without a Guru. I have in the past refuted this saying when a Yoga teacher told me this, but now a tad wiser I realise its truth. Having no Guru in your spiritual journey is like being left alone in a vast labyrinth to work out the journey yourself. You might succeed eventually, but you will most certainly try out many wrong paths before you get out. Perhaps you will say that we should be allowed to try out wrong paths. But I say no we should not be allowed to try wrong paths, because life is short, and we haven't got the time to try wrong paths. Just as there is no need to reinvent the wheel, there is no need to reinvent religion.

We need organized religion to assist not only the individual but society and keep us on the right path. In my religion society was so intertwined with religion, that you can hardly tell them apart. In Vedic times society was guided by the wise seers and sages, who had directly seen the truth and knew how to guide society, because they knew the goal of life.

In a sense it not too different from our modern society which has been organized on scientific principles. But we need to realise that scientific principles do not a spiritual society make. As we progress in our evolution we need spiritual principles. Thus we need an organized religion for the 21st century(Read my thread: A Case for Hinduism, to see why I think that is my religion) Also see 'Future Studies' which is based on visualising a spiritual future society.

 

[Jeremiah]

we need organized religion because (no offence) but there are alot of morons out there and you seen what happens when morons all start doing there own thing (example see internet)

Organized religion has plenty of morons. In fact I would think an environment like the internet with a diversity of ideas conflicting which each other and the greatest collection of information ever. That the internet would more readily nourish intellectual growth than the rigid single minded focus of organized religion.

 

[Jeremiah]

Between the human propensities for believing in God and forming communities, I think organized religion is inevitable. It does satisfy certain needs. I'm not saying that those needs can't be met elsewhere, but still.

War is inevitable also. Does that mean it also satisfies a certain need?

 

[rojse]

I would think an environment like the internet with a diversity of ideas conflicting which each other and the greatest collection information ever. That the internet would more readily nourish intellectual growth than the rigid single minded focus of organized religion.

Excellent point.

 

[zenzero]

Friends,
The jouney is INDIVIDUAL.
Each one is born according to his karma and dies accordingly. Religion is only a WAY to merge. Sorry to state that few organised religions have been able to get ENLIGHTENED people through their processes.
Though a requirement of a GURU is necessary it does not mean that it falls under that so called banner of organisation. Besides one must not forget that EXISTENCE is itself the GURU which at every moment is pointing its fingers, is giving guidance provided one can UNDERSTAND the message.
Education of all religion could be organised but RELIGION per se is an individual activity which each one needs to practice which does not necessarily require one to be a member of an organisation; yes, orgaisation can be helpful in the matter for weak people to be supported but actual religious men has to find their own path.
Eventual the journey has to be taken ALONE.
Love & rgds

 

[Jeremiah]

Why is organized religion required?

An organized religion is required as a moralising force in society. This cannot be done by school education itself or science by itself. Noble values can only be taught by first defining what noble values are. One has to define noble actions and thoughts. Science cannot do this and nor can democracy and seculaism, as one is lead into problems like moral relativism and this manifests as post-modernism. Today our society is more post-modernist and its morality is begining to decay and it is manifesting as chaos in society.

Defining what constitutes noble thoughts and actions can only be done by a religion. In fact noble thoughts and actions cannot be taught, they have to be cultivated through spirituality. They require development of ones consciousness. Again this can only be taught by religion.

At some point spirituality and science will come to a confluence. I can already see it happening

No morals are not dependent on religion. Morals are innate, however not all innate things are accessible. We need help to find some things.

If we count on a single human being to reason for themselves then invariably they will err. First of all, morals cannot be reached through reason alone, morals have to be realised. No matter how much one reasons they cannot prove any moral, because reason cannot touch it. They will end up in a dead-end called moral relativism. This is a dangerous philosophy which basically means there are no morals, it's all subjective and relative.

There is a saying in my religion. It goes: There is no knowledge without a Guru. I have in the past refuted this saying when a Yoga teacher told me this, but now a tad wiser I realise its truth. Having no Guru in your spiritual journey is like being left alone in a vast labyrinth to work out the journey yourself. You might succeed eventually, but you will most certainly try out many wrong paths before you get out. Perhaps you will say that we should be allowed to try out wrong paths. But I say no we should not be allowed to try wrong paths, because life is short, and we haven't got the time to try wrong paths. Just as there is no need to reinvent the wheel, there is no need to reinvent religion.

We need organized religion to assist not only the individual but society and keep us on the right path. In my religion society was so intertwined with religion, that you can hardly tell them apart. In Vedic times society was guided by the wise seers and sages, who had directly seen the truth and knew how to guide society, because they knew the goal of life.

In a sense it not too different from our modern society which has been organized on scientific principles. But we need to realise that scientific principles do not a spiritual society make. As we progress in our evolution we need spiritual principles. Thus we need an organized religion for the 21st century(Read my thread: A Case for Hinduism, to see why I think that is my religion) Also see 'Future Studies' which is based on visualising a spiritual future society.

History has shown just how dangerous that line of thought can be. It’s a bad stew to mix in adherence to a single structure of thought than to place humans in power over the followers dictating what is morally right and what is morally wrong. Morals and law should always be secular. They should always be reasoned out of worldly concerns. Not whatever unverifiable supernatural insight some holy man might claim to possess. Power corrupts and it is a system that is to easily manipulated for evil intent. The upholding of moral responsibility should fall on the shoulders of every individual but mostly on the parents. Laws are the realm of governments.

But at any rate it is quite clear that organized religion is not needed for morals.


“as one is lead into problems like moral relativism”

Most humans can reason and most have compassion regardless of where they live. I am not saying that there are not influences. But I am saying that moral relativism is only partly true.

“We need organized religion to assist not only the individual but society and keep us on the right path.”

All too often organized religion has taken us down a bloody path. But I don’t see any wisdom that comes from adhering to a certain religion that can not also be provided by picking up a book or opening your ears. Wisdom does not need to come from organized religion and would come easier from a convergence of the many different philosophies. Limiting your self to one line of thought and of only one mind of teacher is a sure way to miss a whole lot.

“they knew the goal of life.”

What is the goal of life? And what if I disagree with said goal?

“But we need to realise that scientific principles do not a spiritual society make.”

What is a spiritual society and why do we need it?

 

[Heneni]

Power corrupts and it is a system that is to easily manipulated for evil intent.

Yes, and this is the gripe jesus had with the religious folk back in his day. And he called them hypocrites.

 

[Charity]

Organized religion has resulted in more of "thus sayeth the word of man intstead of the word of God. Each one twisting God's word to fit the need of themselves...

 

[Surya Deva]

History has shown just how dangerous that line of thought can be. It’s a bad stew to mix in adherence to a single structure of thought than to place humans in power over the followers dictating what is morally right and what is morally wrong. Morals and law should always be secular. They should always be reasoned out of worldly concerns. Not whatever unverifiable supernatural insight some holy man might claim to possess. Power corrupts and it is a system that is to easily manipulated for evil intent. The upholding of moral responsibility should fall on the shoulders of every individual but mostly on the parents. Laws are the realm of governments.

I think you will find the most destructive phase in Human history has been during the scientific age. So will you say that science is dangerous? No, what is dangerous is humans with underdeveloped consciousness. If you give a human with underdeveloped consciuousness the secrets of nuclear power they create nuclear bombs, loads of them.

Most humans can reason and most have compassion regardless of where they live. I am not saying that there are not influences. But I am saying that moral relativism is only partly true.

I think you have to take a harder look at society today and then tell me how much compassion and reason do you see. I have done the same and I am not seeing too much compassion and reason. I am seeing wars, poverty, corruption all over the world of varying degrees; I am seeing ignorance and stupidity all over the world of varying degrees. I can see that about 70% of the world population is suffering from poverty and uneven resource distribution around the world. I can see the average person living in the Advanced world spending on things they don't need.

In fact I see a very unreasonable and uncompassionate society that if left to continue as it is will most certainly destroy itself.

All too often organized religion has taken us down a bloody path. But I don’t see any wisdom that comes from adhering to a certain religion that can not also be provided by picking up a book or opening your ears. Wisdom does not need to come from organized religion and would come easier from a convergence of the many different philosophies. Limiting your self to one line of thought and of only one mind of teacher is a sure way to miss a whole lot.

The first point clearly shows you that you need a better organized religion, as the others are not working. It is not really the fault of these religions, they are only products of their times, it is the unwillingness of people to let go of these religions even in an age of reason. As I said underdeveloped human consciousness. Hinduism has been a relatively peaceful religion and in its earliest history it gave rise to a highly prosperous society. The kind of spiritual society that the world needs that can harmonize spiritual, scientific, pragmatic and technological areas of life.

I said earlier if you leave humans to their devices they will err. Life is like a vast labyrinth, there is only ONE way that leads out of it, the others lead you to deadends. Life is too short to try all the ways, so we need guidance. Somebody who knows the way that can direct us to the right path. This is where religion comes in.

What is the goal of life? And what if I disagree with said goal?

There are two possibilites if you disagree with said goal

1) You are wrong
2) You are right

Simply you disagreeing is not going to make you right.

The goal of life is to be liberated from all restraints. You are like water trapped in a tumbler, your nature isn't to remain in the tumbler, your nature is to flow. The following are the restraints:

BODILY: Disease, hunger
MENTAL: Disorganization, irrationality, uncontrolled mind
EMOTIONAL: Hate, dislike, war, anger, lust, greed
SPIRITUAL: Ignorance, overcoming the ego

We are not free, far from it. We are trapped. This is not our nature. Our nature is our dharma - our dharma is those fundamental characteristics without which we are not human, our ideals: knowledge, wisdom, beauty, compassion, service to others. These are those nobles values which we need to cultivate to realise our nature and they cannot be taught, they have to be cultivated.

Overcoming the problems in our life requires living a principled life, having structures to balance us and ensure optimum progress. Again such teaching can only be taught by religion.

What is a spiritual society and why do we need it?

Well, because this current mode of society is not working. We have found out what doesn't work: tribal socities do not work, superstitious socities do not work, capitalist societies do not work, communist socities do not work, post-modernist societies do not work. It is a time we go back to the drawing board and think of a society that works.

I proposed a spiritual society: A spiritual society is one based on noble values and those noble values are intrinsic to our humanity. A spiritual society is recognising that we are interconnected and intertwined with the universe and living in harmony with its laws. A spiritual society is about recognising that society itself is an entity like us that needs to looked after, cultivated and developed.

As soon as you set the goal and the values the way starts to take shape by itself.

The goal is EDUCATION, the values are KNOWLEDGE and WISDOM, then rather teaching our children JUST concepts and work skills at school, teach them how to be noble humans beings. Teach them Meditation to expand their awareness and make them calm. Teach them thinking skills to think critically, creatively and independently for themselves; teach them self-control and living a life of good principles, cultivate their creativity.

Please do not claim this is not needed. I can see how what children are learning at schools: disrespect for teachers and parents, messing around with peers, attitude problems, bullying, sex, drugs and rock and roll.

The goal is ENVIRONMENT, the values are BEAUTY, keep the planet beautiful and clean. Use green energy and research into cleaner energy generation technologies. Use spiritual architecture like Feng Shui or Vaastu to build more organized homes and buildings, with good use of space and nature to promote positive energy, the same should be applied to city planning.

The goal is WELFARE, the values are SERVICE TO OTHERS, rationally distribute resources around society according to the needs of society, if resourcs are needed. Ensure HEALTH, FOOD and EDUCATION is the very basic that everybody gets. Encourage everybody to help out and volunteer. Organize society like a family rather than a collection of individuals.

This is not happening in our greedy and capitalist world where 90% of the resources of the world are concentrated in one place, while the rest of the world suffers.


The solutions are not complex they are simple. It is the irrationality of our current society that they continue to live like they do, and think it is OK, little do they know they are heading for a Third World War, which will most likely kill billions around the world.

 

[Storm]

War is inevitable also. Does that mean it also satisfies a certain need?

Arguably, but you misunderstand me. I wasn't saying that religion meets certain needs BECAUSE it's inevitable. I was saying that it's inevitable and it does meet certain needs, like providing community.

 

[Jeremiah]

Arguably, but you misunderstand me. I wasn't saying that religion meets certain needs BECAUSE it's inevitable. I was saying that it's inevitable and it does meet certain needs, like providing community.

"but you misunderstand me"

I know. But you were rather vague so I gave you a generic answer.

 

[UnTheist]

Only to the people who think they need it