Do you actually *appreciate* the Book of Mormon?

[Midnight Pete]

Aside from the problems of listed by other responders regarding the time of the writing of Rev. and the subsequent compilation...

By "anyone" does that include God or God through a prophet? Can God not call another man to write His words? You seem to presume a lot of power to determine what God can and cannot do.

Why, because I believe the Bible? No, I don't presume any kind of power. I don't presume myself to be a prophet nor do I presume myself to be endowed with special knowledge from God. I have no magic plates. I am not a messiah.

 

[tomato1236]

Why, because I believe the Bible? No, I don't presume any kind of power. I don't presume myself to be a prophet nor do I presume myself to be endowed with special knowledge from God. I have no magic plates. I am not a messiah.

Excellent. I look forward to your response about the verse in Deuteronomy, as well as an explanation of where the bible says (since you say it's because you believe the bible that God cannot cause more to be written) that it is the final word, and the only word.

 

[Caladan]

I am not a Latter-Day Saint or am part of the Latter-Day Saint movement (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, Community of Christ, Church of Christ [Temple Lot], etc.), nor am I a Christian whatsoever.

However, I was raised as a Christian, and I do believe that the Book of Mormon is very inspiring and if not Scripture, an interesting Christian novel.

This site professes that the Book of Mormon is for EVERY Christian, and does not belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, and that what the LDS Church teaches and what the Book of Mormon actually teaches are two different things. Welcome to Book of Mormon Christian

Those missionaries are always giving out their Book of Mormon to many, and I am actually curious if any of you non-Saints actually appreciate the Book of Mormon, instead of denouncing it as false Scripture, or historically impossible and false narrative, etc.

I read a lot about religion, visit many sites of religious importance, discuss and study religion almost daily, so at some point I tried to give the book of Mormon a read, it is so out there and uninteresting that I let it go pretty quickly, the whole thing seems like the fantasy of a 19th century naive man. Israelites in the New World? Golden tablets? 19th century pseudo-sci fi? it is very remote from any Abrahamic religion I know which is based in thousands of years of tradition.
One of the fantastic aspects of the book of Mormon is supposedly convincing the Jews of the Christhood of Jesus, at least the New Testament was more realistic and fully spelled out the rejection of the messianic aspects of the Jewish man from Galilee. any modern Christian who believes that Jewish men and women as a whole community and society would accept another Jewish man as God is still stuck somewhere in the past, for Joseph Smith to bring it up again shows how out there his Book is.

 

[Midnight Pete]

I don't appreciate the BOM because I'm not a Mormon.

 

[tomato1236]

I read a lot about religion, visit many sites of religious importance, discuss and study religion almost daily, so at some point I tried to give the book of Mormon a read, it is so out there and uninteresting that I let it go pretty quickly, the whole thing seems like the fantasy of a 19th century naive man. Israelites in the New World? Golden tablets? 19th century pseudo-sci fi? it is very remote from any Abrahamic religion I know which is based in thousands of years of tradition.

Interesting. How far into it did you get? Just curious. It's not like it makes some stylistic reversal later into the book or anything, but I just wonder.

 

[tomato1236]

I don't appreciate the BOM because I'm not a Mormon.

Well right. But I read some of the Quran about a month ago and I appreciated what it said. I don't know enough about Islam to want to convert or anything, and I didn't read the whole Quran so maybe it says som noxious stuff later, but I appreciate it for what I know of it. It's possible to appreciate religious works, even if your religion doesn't accept them, no?

 

[Midnight Pete]

Excellent. I look forward to your response about the verse in Deuteronomy, as well as an explanation of where the bible says (since you say it's because you believe the bible that God cannot cause more to be written) that it is the final word, and the only word.

I would appreciate if you didn't try to convert me. Nothing personal.


Could you give me a link for an online BOM resource? Just because I don't want to be converted doesn't mean I'm not curious.

 

[Caladan]

Interesting. How far into it did you get? Just curious. It's not like it makes some stylistic reversal later into the book or anything, but I just wonder.

It was a couple of years ago, I can tell you that I didn't get that far, a dozens of pages.
me and a South African friend of mine who read much more into the book ripped the whole thing to shreds in a debate.

 

[Autodidact]

Opening verse of BoM:

I, Nephi, having been aborn of bgoodly cparents, therefore I was dtaught somewhat in all the learning of my father; and having seen many eafflictions in the course of my days, nevertheless, having been highly favored of the Lord in all my days; yea, having had a great knowledge of the goodness and the mysteries of God, therefore I make a frecord of my proceedings in my days.

It's pedestrian, boring, tedious and self-justifying.

Compare opening lines Old Testament in the beautiful King James English:

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

It's bold, succinct, poetic and powerful.

Heck, while we're at it, pick any translation of the Tao Te Ching's opening lines:

The Way that can be experienced is not true;
The world that can be constructed is not true.
The Way manifests all that happens and may happen;
The world represents all that exists and may exist.

Again, poetic, powerful, succinct, and mysterious.

I like the Gia Fu translation:

The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
The nameless is the beginning of heaven and Earth.
The named is the mother of the ten thousand things.
Ever desireless, one can see the mystery.
Ever desiring, one sees the manifestations.
These two spring from the same source but differ in name; this appears as darkness.
Darkness within darkness.
The gate to all mystery.

Even the quran, which can get a bit plodding and confusing in English:

1. In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
2. Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
3. Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
4. Master of the Day of Judgment.
5. Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.
6. Show us the straight way,
7. The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.

At least it flows and has some power.

The BoM, as literature, is so badly written, its stylistic deficiencies alone recommend against it.
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[Caladan]

Oh, you're good Autodidact.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't appreciate the BOM because I'm not a Mormon.

What does that have to do with anything?

Opening verse of BoM:



It's pedestrian, boring, tedious and self-justifying.

Reminds me of the opening of the Gospel of Luke:

1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled[a] among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

And while we're on the subject, here's the opening verse of the New Testament:

1 This is the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah the son of David, the son of Abraham:

You may think that the BoM's opening is "pedestrian, boring, tedious and self-justifying", but it's better on all those counts than the New Testament, which basically starts with "here's a bunch of 'begats' to justify our claims".

It seems to me that as far as opening lines go, the Book of Mormon has at least met the Christian benchmark.

 

[Caladan]

What does that have to do with anything?


Reminds me of the opening of the Gospel of Luke:



And while we're on the subject, here's the opening verse of the New Testament:



You may think that the BoM's opening is "pedestrian, boring, tedious and self-justifying", but it's better on all those counts than the New Testament, which basically starts with "here's a bunch of 'begats' to justify our claims".

It seems to me that as far as opening lines go, the Book of Mormon has at least met the Christian benchmark.

The New Testament has very remarkable passages, wisdom parables, and interesting political exploits of Jesus in Jerusalem with spice and passion, the BoM has nothing on the root text of Christianity.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The New Testament has very remarkable passages, wisdom parables, and interesting political exploits of Jesus in Jerusalem with spice and passion, the BoM has nothing on the root text of Christianity.

I don't disagree that the Bible has some remarkable things in it and it can be beautiful in parts (IMO it's god-awful in others, but that's beside the point).

However, I was just trying to demonstrate exactly where Auto's "first verse" criterion would actually lead us.

I do agree that the New Testament has better parts than its first verse, but the same is true of the Book of Mormon.

 

[Caladan]

I don't disagree that the Bible has some remarkable things in it and it can be beautiful in parts (IMO it's god-awful in others, but that's beside the point).

However, I was just trying to demonstrate exactly where Auto's "first verse" criterion would actually lead us.

I do agree that the New Testament has better parts than its first verse, but the same is true of the Book of Mormon.

The New Testament focuses on Jesus, its starting verse is perfect in this context and most appropriate. it doesn't need to be fancy, its going for the core issue, according to Jewish tradition the messiah is to come from the line of David, therefore it begins there.

 

[tomato1236]

I would appreciate if you didn't try to convert me. Nothing personal.


Could you give me a link for an online BOM resource? Just because I don't want to be converted doesn't mean I'm not curious.

Oh, I promise I won't try to convert you. I'm not trying to do so. In fact, I don't even believe I have the power to convert you. You've just said a few things that don't really add up, which indicates to me that you haven't yet shared your real reasons for holding the Book of Mormon invalid.

 

[tomato1236]

It was a couple of years ago, I can tell you that I didn't get that far, a dozens of pages.
me and a South African friend of mine who read much more into the book ripped the whole thing to shreds in a debate.

Oh I see. Ok. Well it's great that you cracked it open.

 

[Caladan]

Oh I see. Ok. Well it's great that you cracked it open.

quite easily. it is simply not on the same level as the original sacred texts of the major religions, it is not a worthy copy of the Hebrew Bible, the New Testament, or the Qur'an. I'm amazed that hard working Americans adopted it a couple of centuries ago.

 

[tomato1236]

I would appreciate if you didn't try to convert me. Nothing personal.


Could you give me a link for an online BOM resource? Just because I don't want to be converted doesn't mean I'm not curious.

Oh. And as far as a link for info, well, there's a lot of info out there. I recommend LDS.org for access to the book of mormon and other LDS works, as well as talks given about the book by church leaders. It's set up so you can just search whatever topics you're interested in.

Mormon.org is a site also created by the church which is aimed more at those who are of other faiths, and focuses less on deep explanations of doctrine and more on giving an overview of our beliefs, and examples of members living in all walks of life.

I'm not trying to get you to do anything, I just don't want to make sure that if you're dismissing the book of mormon as false, you do so based on its own merits, and not on things that don't make sense. Like Autodidact and other posters here who read it and just didn't like it. That's fine. At least their opinions are educated by experience.

 

[tomato1236]

What does that have to do with anything?


Reminds me of the opening of the Gospel of Luke:



And while we're on the subject, here's the opening verse of the New Testament:



You may think that the BoM's opening is "pedestrian, boring, tedious and self-justifying", but it's better on all those counts than the New Testament, which basically starts with "here's a bunch of 'begats' to justify our claims".

It seems to me that as far as opening lines go, the Book of Mormon has at least met the Christian benchmark.

If you're looking for a good novel to read, there are plenty out there that are more accessible and riveting than all the scriptures I'm aware of. The dudes that wrote the Quran, The Bible, The book of mormon...they're all just people, and people have different styles. Moses acknowledged that he was slow of speech, and writers in the Book of Mormon did likewise in reference to their writing:

23 And I said unto him: Lord, the Gentiles will amock at these things, because of our bweakness in writing; for Lord thou hast made us cmighty in word by faith, but thou hast not made us mighty in writing; for thou hast made all this people that they could speak much, because of the Holy Ghost which thou hast given them;
24 And thou hast made us that we could write but little, because of the aawkwardness of our hands. Behold, thou hast not made us mighty in bwriting like unto the brother of Jared, for thou madest him that the things which he cwrote were mighty even as thou art, unto the overpowering of man to read them.

25 Thou hast also made our words powerful and great, even that we acannot write them; wherefore, when we write we behold our bweakness, and stumble because of the placing of our words; and I fear lest the Gentiles shall cmock at our words.


26 And when I had said this, the Lord spake unto me, saying: aFools bmock, but they shall mourn; and my grace is sufficient for the meek, that they shall take no advantage of your weakness;

 

[tomato1236]

quite easily. it is simply not on the same level as the original sacred texts of the major religions, it is not a worthy copy of the Hebrew Bible, the New Testament, or the Qur'an. I'm amazed that hard working Americans adopted it a couple of centuries ago.

Will you explain "not a worthy copy of the Hebrew Bible, the new..."
I just don't want to assume that you think it's a copy, or in other words, supposed to be the same.