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Do You Agree with Trump’s Comments on Judge Curiel?

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I don't think Trump deep down is a racist, he's just appealing to his supporters.
I don't know on what basis you believe Trump isn't racist "deep down". In interviews broadcast to the world, he "explains" the reason for his comments about judge Curiel being biased because "he's Mexican" and "we're building a wall between here and Mexico," and Trump simply doesn't seem to understand that it is an unequivocal expression of racism (or ethnocentrism). He obviously wasn't going through his explanation in order to drum up support. And he definitely did just the opposite of gaining the very important support of elected members of the party under which he is running for President. If he made his comments about judge Curiel as a strategy to increase his popularity, it failed dramatically.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I repeat Jayhawker's question: Based on what evidence?
I already answered this.
So your claim that judge Curiel is biased is not based on any evidence by which to conclude that he is biased.

Obviously your baseless claim that judge Curiel is biased is just an expression of your own bias. Right?

In some ways, I don't even see why this is a question.
Whether or not Trump's supporters agree with his racist comments about judge Curiel is a question because I asked it. I wanted to know, for instance, how Trump's supporters deal with Trump's racist claims about judge Curiel.

I don't see it even close to being racism.
The fact that you do not understand that it is racist to claim that a judge has an "absolute conflict" in a case because "he's Mexican" only speaks poorly of your comprehension; it certainly doesn't make Trump's comments any less racist.

Trump said - (Judge Curiel) has an "absolute conflict of interest" because he is "of Mexican heritage."
I see this as an assertion to judge this particular case, not (in any way) an assertion to be able to judge any particular case as if he is inferior to other judges because of his Mexican heritage.
What? The reason that Trump gave for Curiel's alleged bias has nothing to do with any evidence of bias by Curiel, but merely because "he's Mexican. We're building a wall between here and Mexico."

Again, it's no different than someone saying, "He's Black, therefore he's lazy and stupid." It's making a claim about an individual based not on the individual's history but because of his race.

Obama is (or was) saying that because this person looks like me, it ought to matter in how we view the whole situation.
The President didn't even vaguely suggest anyone should assess anyone's guilt or innocence in this case because of Martin's race.

The President's comment is not even vaguely comparable to Trump's claims about judge Curiel. The President did not make a false assertion about anyone, and did not claim anyone was biased or incompetent on the basis of race.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Well, if the Judge wasn't biased against Trump before... I doubt this will help his case ... It's sort of like giving a Custom's agent a hard time... Nope, not the brightest idea.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
So, you’re claiming that “Mexican” judges like judge Curiel are generally biased against parties they believe to have a bad attitude toward Mexicans?
Did I say that?
I don't know any other way to understand what you said. What reason do you claim that "Mexican" judges such as judge Curiel are generally biased against people with bright yellow hair such as Trump?

But I don't ignore the possibility that this judge (a La Raza supporter) might be inclined against someone behaving as Trump has.
Does that answer any of my questions in the OP?

If not, is there some reason you don't want to answer the questions I asked in the OP?

In general, judges aren't punished for disagreeing with me.
You didn't have to inform me of that. I asked you what sort of punishment you think judges should receive for issuing decisions that you disagree with.

However, I do think judges should be sanctioned when demonstrating incompetence, prejudice, or corruption.
Sanctioned how? What are your criteria for determining when a judge has "demonstrat[ed] incompetence, prejudice or corruption"?

The vast majority of judges in the US do not violate the judicial Code of Conduct, do they? Judges do not "often" violate the Code, and do not have a "propensity" for violating the Code. Do they?

It seems you believe that I think decisions are deterimined by race, age & gender.
I only say that it's possible for any of those (along with many others) to be a factor at times.
Obviously no one here has claimed that it is impossible for judges to be biased. Trump didn't say anything about it being possible that some judges are biased or have "an absolute conflict".
 

Underhill

Well-Known Member
If the judge is biased, it's probably because Trump has instigated 1900 lawsuits over the years. But then if that is cause for bias, then virtually all judges are likely to be guilty.

At last count, he had 50 civil cases still open against him.

The guy is a scam artist. So I have no doubt the courts are biased against him. Just look into Trump University if you need proof.
 

tytlyf

Not Religious
I don't know on what basis you believe Trump isn't racist "deep down".
He's being coached to appeal to his base. From the beginning too. He's a liberal democrat like his family. He's playing conservatives. Hell, I could do what he's doing if I really wanted to. It's easy to say the same stuff, mostly because I know what they want to hear.

Trump is in this as a bet/grudge or something of the like. Which is why the corrupt republican establishment has been afraid of him from day 1. They intentionally ignored the will of their voters to derail and sabotage him.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I don't know any other way to understand what you said. What reason do you claim that "Mexican" judges such as judge Curiel are generally biased against people with bright yellow hair such as Trump?
You're rephrasing what I said, & changing the meaning dramatically.
Try again.
If not, is there some reason you don't want to answer the questions I asked in the OP?
I don't have enuf info to answer those questions, since I'm not familiar enuf with the exact situations, campaign strategy, or what other pols should do.
I opined about what I know.
You didn't have to inform me of that. I asked you what sort of punishment you think judges should receive for issuing decisions that you disagree with.
It's a devious loaded question, ie, you make a false presumption about a basis for punishing judges.
So I offered an opinion which addresses the question you should've asked instead.
Sanctioned how? What are your criteria for determining when a judge has "demonstrat[ed] incompetence, prejudice or corruption"?
It's beyond the scope of this thread to address the process of sanctioning judges, eg, The Judicial Tenure Commission in MI.
(But I can tell you that they've never contacted me personally to see if I agree or disagree with a judge's decision.)
The vast majority of judges in the US do not violate the judicial Code of Conduct, do they? Judges do not "often" violate the Code, and do not have a "propensity" for violating the Code. Do they?
I cannot speak to whether a majority do.
(That would quantify things more than I'm able.)
I say that I observe misconduct in court on occasion, often because of bias.
Because of this, it makes sense to do what one can to avoid judges with a
greater likelihood of ruling against one because of a bias or other problem.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
He's being coached to appeal to his base.
When I saw the clip of him trying to defend his comments about judge Curiel, I did not see his wheels turning to try to utter a response to get more voters. I don't even know that there is a significant "base" of voters who would be inspired by his comments. He obviously didn't bring on board any of the elected Republican representatives with his comments. Just the contrary. And for some reason I suspect that the people who elected those Republicans basically share their beliefs about the inappropriateness of Trumps claims about the alleged bias of judge Curiel.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I don't have enuf info to answer those questions
You don't have enough information to know whether you agree with Trump's comments that because judge Curiel "is Mexican" he has "an absolute conflict" in the fraud case against "Trump University"?

What further sort information do you need in order to answer the OP questions about whether you agree with Trump's comments?

It's a devious loaded question, ie, you make a false presumption about a basis for punishing judges.
So I offered an opinion which addresses the question you should've asked instead.
I know nothing devious or loaded about any of the questions I do not need to ask whether "judges are punished for disagreeing with [you]."

I cannot speak to whether a majority do.
Your claims about judges having a "propensity" to make "bad rulings" is not a comment about the majority of judges?

You didn't answer what are your criteria for determining when a judge has "demonstrated incompetence, prejudice or corruption." Why would someone think that your ideas about judges are coherent if you can't figure out a way to determine when they are and when they are incompetent, biased or corrupt?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
You don't have enough information to know whether you agree with Trump's comments that because judge Curiel "is Mexican" he has "an absolute conflict" in the fraud case against "Trump University"?
I don't know what knowledge he might have which isn't public.
In lawsuits, only a tiny fraction of the issues make into the new.
If you want me to guess, that just ain't gonna happen.
What further sort information do you need in order to answer the OP questions about whether you agree with Trump's comments?
That would remain to be seen.
I know nothing devious or loaded about any of the questions I do not need to ask whether "judges are punished for disagreeing with [you]."
To disagree with me has never & will never be something for which judges are sanctioned.
This is an utterly ludicrous line of questioning for you to pursue.
Your claims about judges having a "propensity" to make "bad rulings" is not a comment about the majority of judges?
You're again rephrasing my words to change the meaning, which doesn't inspire a response.
You didn't answer what are your criteria for determining when a judge has "demonstrated incompetence, prejudice or corruption."
That's because I'm not involved in that process, & I don't want to guess about it.
Why would someone think that your ideas about judges are coherent if you can't figure out a way to determine when they are and when they are incompetent, biased or corrupt?
It would help if you respond to what I post, instead of the straw man you construct.
Are you just looking for a Monty Python style argument?
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Aren't Trump's many bigoted comments alone enough to scare anyone? If not, then I have to wonder about the observer. They're sure scaring the hell out of a lot of Republicans running fort office themselves, and many of them have used the word "bigoted" to refer to them.

BTW, Trump has made a fool out of Ryan.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
To disagree with me has never & will never be something for which judges are sanctioned.
This is an utterly ludicrous line of questioning for you to pursue.
No one here but you has exhibited any confusion about any issue of punishing judges for their decisions. You're the one who complained that judges make “bad decisions” “with impunity,” and said that you "do think judges should be sanctioned when demonstrating incompetence, prejudice, or corruption." Yet you can't give a clue as to what any of that is supposed to mean, can't tell us a single criterion for objectively determining when a judge is "demonstrating incompetence, prejudice or corruption."

In response to the questions in the OP about Trump’s accusations against judge Curiel, you said that judges have a “propensity to make bad rulings based upon personal peccadilloes”. Yet you haven’t noted any example of any judge exhibiting bias such as Trump claims Curiel is guilty of. You haven’t cited a single example of a judge of a minority race or ethnicity being unfair to a white male in his rulings. Right?

You obviously haven’t articulated any rational reason whatsoever to believe that Trump’s accusations against judge Curiel are anything other than sheer lunacy fueled by his own racist bigotry.

I assure you that if there were even the slightest reason to believe that Trump’s accusations against judge Curiel were true, his lawyers would have filed a motion of recusal, and wouldn’t have praised the judge's fairness just last month.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
No one here but you has exhibited any confusion about any issue of punishing judges for their decisions.
You mistake uncertainty for confusion.
You're the one who complained that judges make “bad decisions” “with impunity,” and said that you "do think judges should be sanctioned when demonstrating incompetence, prejudice, or corruption."
Do you believe they should be able to do such things with impunity?
Yet you can't give a clue as to what any of that is supposed to mean, can't tell us a single criterion for objectively determining when a judge is "demonstrating incompetence, prejudice or corruption."
I'm simply not holding forth on a process I'm not involved in.
In response to the questions in the OP about Trump’s accusations against judge Curiel, you said that judges have a “propensity to make bad rulings based upon personal peccadilloes”. Yet you haven’t noted any example of any judge exhibiting bias such as Trump claims Curiel is guilty of. You haven’t cited a single example of a judge of a minority race or ethnicity being unfair to a white male in his rulings. Right?
I don't intend to give an example of that.
I addressed the larger issues I am familiar with, & based upon those, I'm saying it's possible (not determined).
You obviously haven’t articulated any rational reason whatsoever to believe that Trump’s accusations against judge Curiel are anything other than sheer lunacy fueled by his own racist bigotry.
That's because I'm speaking of possibilities, only one of which is his bigotry.
I assure you that if there were even the slightest reason to believe that Trump’s accusations against judge Curiel were true, his lawyers would have filed a motion of recusal, and wouldn’t have praised the judge's fairness just last month.
Trump handles things the way he sees fit.
Public commentary could very well trigger the judge to recuse himself.

It seems you're still looking for an argument full of opposition & certainties.
But I'll only offer what I have.
 

Palehorse

Active Member
I think the judges religion is more important. Jewish judge vs. Palestinian judge now thats racism...or...um....either way their race wouldn't effect the sentence they hand down.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
You mistake uncertainty for confusion.

Do you believe they should be able to do such things with impunity?
What things? Tell us what you're referring to as "demonstrating incompetence, prejudice [and] corruption". You claim these "things" happen "often" and that judges do it "with impunity". Provide the evidence to show that your beliefs about judges' incompetence, prejudice and corruption have a basis in reality.

In response to the questions in the OP about Trump’s accusations against judge Curiel, you said that judges have a “propensity to make bad rulings based upon personal peccadilloes”. Yet you haven’t noted any example of any judge exhibiting bias such as Trump claims Curiel is guilty of. You haven’t cited a single example of a judge of a minority race or ethnicity being unfair to a white male in his rulings. Right?
I don't intend to give an example of that.
Only because you do not know of any example of the bias that Trump has accused judge Curiel of.

I addressed the larger issues I am familiar with, & based upon those, I'm saying it's possible (not determined).
Whether something is possible or not is asked only in the last of the questions asked in the OP.

You haven't answered the questions asked in the OP. You've only used this thread to express your own baseless prejudices about judges.

Trump handles things the way he sees fit.
That does not account for the fact that if there were even the slightest reason to believe that Trump's accusations are true, his attorneys would have filed a motion for recusal and would not have praised judge Curiel's fairness just last month.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Aren't Trump's many bigoted comments alone enough to scare anyone? If not, then I have to wonder about the observer. They're sure scaring the hell out of a lot of Republicans running fort office themselves, and many of them have used the word "bigoted" to refer to them.

BTW, Trump has made a fool out of Ryan.
Ryan apparently is one of those Republicans who is scared by the possibility of Trump being elected President.

Ryan is also one I think should be praised for stating that:

"Claiming a person can't do their job because of their race is sort of like the textbook definition of a racist comment." And. "If you say something that's wrong, I think the mature and responsible thing is to acknowledge it."
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/paul-ryan-trump-judge-223991#ixzz4B6rcBtEL
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
What things? Tell us what you're referring to as "demonstrating incompetence, prejudice [and] corruption". You claim these "things" happen "often" and that judges do it "with impunity". Provide the evidence to show that your beliefs about judges' incompetence, prejudice and corruption have a basis in reality.
Only because you do not know of any example of the bias that Trump has accused judge Curiel of.
Whether something is possible or not is asked only in the last of the questions asked in the OP.
You haven't answered the questions asked in the OP. You've only used this thread to express your own baseless prejudices about judges.
That does not account for the fact that if there were even the slightest reason to believe that Trump's accusations are true, his attorneys would have filed a motion for recusal and would not have praised judge Curiel's fairness just last month.
I've answered everything which calls to me.
I know you're not satisfied, but so it goes.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Ryan apparently is one of those Republicans who is scared by the possibility of Trump being elected President.

Ryan is also one I think should be praised for stating that:

"Claiming a person can't do their job because of their race is sort of like the textbook definition of a racist comment." And. "If you say something that's wrong, I think the mature and responsible thing is to acknowledge it."
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/paul-ryan-trump-judge-223991#ixzz4B6rcBtEL
Yes, I do give Ryan credit for that and some other statements he's made, and the chorus of Republicans fed up with playing along with Trump is growing. Today, conservative columnist Bill Kristol, who often appears on Fox, was very critical of those who are still pandering to Trump, and he roundly criticized Haley Barbour's support of Trump today right after Barbour spoke, stating that it way too risky for both the nation and the Republican Party to let Trump be president. He added that to support anyone who openly spouts both racially and religiously bigoted statements cannot be excused even if he were to apologize.
 

Palehorse

Active Member
Trump is right. Judges are bias because of their race.

Four Wisconsin Supreme Court judges dismissed an investigation into whether Gov. Scott Walker (R) violated election laws during his 2012 gubernatorial campaign and ordered that all evidence be destroyed, reported AllGov.com. The justices who killed the investigation received campaign funds from the same groups that Walker was suspected of coordinating with.

Walker was accused of coordinating with conservative and business advocacy groups during the 2012 recall elections. The Wisconsin Club for Growth, Wisconsin Manufacturers & Commerce, and Citizens for a Strong America supported Walker and fought the recall. It’s illegal for an elected official like Walker to coordinate with such groups. These groups also contributed considerable amounts of money to the four justices who voted to quell the investigation.

The Wisconsin Club for Growth contributed $400,000 to Justice Annette Ziegler in 2007; $507,000 to Justice Michael Gableman in 2008; $520,000 to Justice David Prosser in 2011; and $350,000 to Justice Patience Roggensack in 2013, according to the Wisconsin Democracy Campaign (WDC).

If the Jewish federation contributed to Scott Walker, Jews are a race and religion...The Judges would be racist if they are Jews or practice Judaism instead of Democracy in Americas courts.
 
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