Go back a post. I was exploring the implications of someone else's premises.
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Do you believe in a creator of the universe/universes?
- Thread starter Starlight
- Start date
Why not? It is obvious to me that there is no creator. Not obvious for you? Fine. But for me it is a definitive "of course".
It is like asking me if I believe that Elvis is alive, or whether black cats bring bad luck. Still obvious to me, but not necessarily to others.
Ciao
- viole
Hellbound Serpiente
Active Member
Far likelier than not, I'd say yes. Sure, this could just be an effect of chemical processes of our brains, but that doesn't necessarily mean the brain have no creator at all. I personally feel like there is a conscious designer of the brain going by how unquestionably sophisticated and complex brain is. So, the creator of the brain and it's working is the creator of the dream too.
You need tools needed to form beliefs [tools like sufficient level of consciousness, intelligence] and also awareness of what is outside of our dream realm in order to form proper belief and/or disbelief about who or what created the dream. Pretty much like a fetus needs sufficient level of consciousness and sufficient level of intelligence in order to form proper belief whether there is a mom or not, along with the awareness of what is outside the womb in order to form proper belief and/or disbelief about who or what create womb. That is absent in dream realm. How can we do what you're saying in our dreams while our conscious mind is [temporarily] inactive during that period?
If there was sufficient level of awareness and all the tools necessary, we can make a proper judgment. This happens to some extent in lucid dreaming phenomena. Lucid dreamers can be aware that they are in a dream [created by the dreamer]. They can, from what I've read, even manipulate dreams.
Now, who can't all this apply to our real life realm too? Perhaps we are lacking the necessary tools needed and awareness [among other things] to know the creator of our brains, ourselves and our world?
Hellbound Serpiente
Active Member
As for me personally, I do tentatively believe in a creator, or at least the sentient, conscious, intelligent force governing universe is far likelier than not due to the correspondence of the belief with what actually does occur in our real life.
Hellbound Serpiente
Active Member
Whether Elvis is alive or not, or whether black cats really bring bad luck, can be scientifically assessed and determined, the same cannot be done with the case about whether there is a creator or not. I don't think it's wise to jump to conclusions with little-to-no information about something.
Your dream self has no beliefs? Makes no decisions?
Have you never had such an experience? It's quite liberating.
Perfect stated (or rather questioned)!!!! Too bad there's not a winner rating for a paragraph!
Oh what the hey...I'll make one.
ppp
Well-Known Member
I don't see the difference between believing that there is a creator of the universe and believing that gremlins are the cause of my broken toaster. Both cases appear to be unwisely jumping to conclusions with little-to-no information about the proposed cause. Don't even know whether the proposed cause is a possibility.
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
I do not believe in a creator of the universe, no.
There is no evidence for such a thing. There are plenty of things that are fundamental to the reality that we share, and that can be experienced or demonstrated to/by any or all of us. A creator is not one of them from what I have seen. I may as well not believe it until I come across evidence that compels me to believe it.
Also, everything I can witness or does seem to present in reality is in motion or doing its thing apparently without any creative hand/force necessary. Like crystals growing by themselves all over the universe. Large bodies of mass orbiting other larger bodies. Chemical reactions happening without any intervening hand. Creatures reproducing for all intents and purposes "on their own." No creator in sight, nor any sign/evidence of one.
Hellbound Serpiente
Active Member
It did, but those weren't the decision/beliefs of my true, real world self. Those were decision/beliefs as they were made to my dream self by my subconscious mind.
I did. But I was being objective. My personal claims about my own personal lucid dreams would just be anecdotes rather than evidence if it isn't backed by real science.
Hellbound Serpiente
Active Member
It did, but those weren't the decision/beliefs of my true, real world self. Those were decision/beliefs as they were made to my dream self by my subconscious mind.
I did. But I was being objective. My personal claims about my own personal lucid dreams would just be anecdotes rather than evidence if it isn't backed by real science.
Ok, replace black cats with invisible cats. Or invisible fairies. Or whatever unfalsifiable we might make up..
ciao
- viole
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I tripped over an invisible cat once.
I didn't trip over my own two feet.
No really.
It was an invisible cat.
Wandering Monk
Well-Known Member
No. Next question....
Hellbound Serpiente
Active Member
How common is the occurrence of gremlins breaking toaster in our everyday life as compared to occurrence of highly-sophisticated and complex systems [and/or effects and/or anything] coming to fruition only due some sentient, conscious, focused, perceptive, intelligent, accurate, creative agent(s) that creates, maintains and operates these highly-sophisticated and complex systems [effects/anything] with unchanging laws and constants to keep these systems running in an effective, orderly way?
We have many continuous, automatic system of highly-sophisticated and complex nature in real world, but they only come from a sentient, conscious intelligent beings and/or through deliberate, conscious efforts. In my humble opinion, I don't think there exist an example where chaos breeds anything other than chaos, unless conscious, deliberate, intelligent efforts were made to create and maintain order.
So, I personally think the possibility of a creator is more probable than gremblin breaking toaster because it has basis in what occurs in our real life and it's working.
I know that's a mouthful, but I want to made my post over-detailed clarify my point as much as possible for the sake of emphasis. I’ll just copy/past something else I said in the other thread to further clarify my point:
[…]
“What I meant was something like universe [which I personally feel like a folding and unfolding mass], a continuous automatic system [which is born out of quantum chaos] needing a sentient, conscious, focused, perceptive, intelligent, accurate, creative agent (making conscious, deliberate, intelligent efforts) to create, maintain and operate unchanging laws and constants to keep it running in an effective, orderly way unlike the chaotic way the quantum world functions [from which it is born]. I personally don’t think chaos breeds anything other than chaos. To think that order is born out of chaos sounds counterintuitive.
Also, besides that, I don’t mean to argue, with all due respect, I personally feel BOTH [unchanging laws and conscious, deliberate efforts/agent(s)] are needed. Pretty much like for consistently smooth, safe, guided, ordered proficient car-driving, we need both a sentient, conscious, focused, perceptive, intelligent, accurate, creative and overall expert and proficient car-driver AS WELL AS mechanical and operational mechanism of the car. If there is no [and/or poor] driver and/or mechanics, the driving will be poor and lead to destruction. If someone tells me that they have seen a consistent show of effective car-driving in absence of a [effective] driver and the mechanics of the car, I’d find that to be senseless. I’d have to make baseless assumptions for believing it since it is counterintuitive. This is where I find both the believers and non-believers in fine-tuning to be too extremes in their views. Both are flawed to some extent while both also make good points.”
Okay, first change the topic title to “Do you believe in an invisible road [in some unexplored part of the earth] in which countless cars, devoid of any drivers, are successfully and consistently circling indefinitely around the most dangerous multi-lane roundabouts while simultaneously performing the most trickiest car maneuvers and yielding to traffic signs at the same time?”. Or whatever absurd we might make up.
So the hell what? I sneezed without blinking once!
ppp
Well-Known Member
Substitute "gods" for "gremlins" in your question. Whatever probability you get for a god, that is the same as for a gremlin.
That is not true*. Demonstrate that weather only comes from a sentient, conscious intelligent beings and/or through deliberate, conscious efforts. Or my love of scallops.
*as opposed to false.
Irate State
Äkta människor
rational experiences
Veteran Member
I believe that conscious motivation of a spirit being changed where it existed and forced creation "change" to exist.
A human today thinking, is also quote the motivation to theme where or how creation itself exists as consciousness.
Consciousness quotes I do not die. The physical body owned decomposes and owns its own loss. The thinking living self expressive conscious contact gone/removed.
So I would ask anyone, why does thinking impose by thinking that it can do an assessment of created creation unless it imposes that it is better than or other than what it peruses? Including the human form owning the ability to
think?
1. consciousness bio life lives within a heavenly body in a gas mass water atmospheric condition. Natural to think.
2. consciousness does not exist outside in space by the terms ability to think.....human status.
3. human argues and quotes multi times consciousness itself was outside of creation to enable thinking to quote creation came from a higher place. Otherwise conscious awareness would not express the knowing by the information it refers to.
A human today thinking, is also quote the motivation to theme where or how creation itself exists as consciousness.
Consciousness quotes I do not die. The physical body owned decomposes and owns its own loss. The thinking living self expressive conscious contact gone/removed.
So I would ask anyone, why does thinking impose by thinking that it can do an assessment of created creation unless it imposes that it is better than or other than what it peruses? Including the human form owning the ability to
think?
1. consciousness bio life lives within a heavenly body in a gas mass water atmospheric condition. Natural to think.
2. consciousness does not exist outside in space by the terms ability to think.....human status.
3. human argues and quotes multi times consciousness itself was outside of creation to enable thinking to quote creation came from a higher place. Otherwise conscious awareness would not express the knowing by the information it refers to.
ajay0
Well-Known Member
The Shivalingam in Hinduism is considered the cosmic egg from which sprang forth everything in the material universe, including the gods, at the time of creation, and they will all return back to the Shivalingam at the time of cosmic dissolution.
Modern physics similarly state that the modern universe began in the Big Bang and will end at the time of the Big Crunch.
The Prajapita Brahmakumaris consider the Shivalingam as representing God Shiva as an incorporeal point of light, and the Father of all the other gods and sentient beings, and the same as Jehovah, Ahura Mazda, Allah, Waheguru in the other monotheistic religions.
rational experiences
Veteran Member
Spirit who always proved what they said to me was real without my study, want to study or intellect, to think for self advice, answered a lot of my own questions.
Based on what my human brothers and sisters believed.
They explained that the eternal uses the deceased male/female life to talk to us as a spiritual informed human, as it owned the reason a human was sent out of its body as a human, changed by radiation in water and oxygen. For any body to exist.
So it goes....spirit being eternal much like our owned form, left its own body as the heavenly gas mass filled back in space emptiness. Space emptiness equated what mass no longer existed, as mass in energy can be reduced to a small body..which fell to the spatial floor.
Reason O space itself is one big hole inside of an eternal body mass with its owned living spirit that has and always had existed in that form. Who caused a hole in its own body. That burnt and was removed into created form.
It told me that one day by burning body removal the pressure asserted upon space by the natural eternal body will shut the creation space out, and it will end in that reactive status. Due to it becoming smaller in cooling conditions and heated conditions. And who knows if a reaction would then re open it to a new cosmic beginning. For no one would know actually.
As a human brother, natural human first before thinking for science and thesis and invention is my equal. His inventive science terminology does not speak on behalf of my own female living presence.
So when you advise him that he falsified information in words by describing space as a female womb, that is word falsification by description. And when he quotes Mother Abomination, that reference is not human owned.
But when his life just from sperm and an ovary like mine quotes, but I sacrificed my life, that is because you baby male adult self was born from an ovary and did not begin from God O the stone planet. Your machine however did.
Once our Holy Father human and Mother Holy human were equally paired and united as a human choice in sex to own baby children to continue human life.
Not one human today owns the ability to talk on their behalf. We are all just from sperm and an ovary. And should remember exactly where we began so that you do not in science falsify my natural history as a human.
Today, right where I am 2 apes that you all discuss as relative, when it is FAKE relativity have ape babies in ape sex. If you think and want to tell stories that apes had sex and had a human baby who became our parents. It is correctly worded defined to be a belief, which is not fact and it is just a story told by a living human in their own life form human.
That sort of human behaviour before was science medical assessed to be determined to be a mental problem associated to human egotism to claim I know it all, when it is all just verbal and then a verbal argument. versus what is fact, right where you live now.
Belief is stated to be the human condition that has caused its owned self so many life caused changes and harm, that today is about time that a new group of rational humans teach everyone the fact of human life presence is human sex.
How anything else exists is because it does exist rational. For science is not beginning by invention the inventing of a cosmic big bang....their science is a machine designed by their owned human self, who designed it to react and what it uses to react is any product taken out of the body upon which they live.
As rational human advice for humans.
Based on what my human brothers and sisters believed.
They explained that the eternal uses the deceased male/female life to talk to us as a spiritual informed human, as it owned the reason a human was sent out of its body as a human, changed by radiation in water and oxygen. For any body to exist.
So it goes....spirit being eternal much like our owned form, left its own body as the heavenly gas mass filled back in space emptiness. Space emptiness equated what mass no longer existed, as mass in energy can be reduced to a small body..which fell to the spatial floor.
Reason O space itself is one big hole inside of an eternal body mass with its owned living spirit that has and always had existed in that form. Who caused a hole in its own body. That burnt and was removed into created form.
It told me that one day by burning body removal the pressure asserted upon space by the natural eternal body will shut the creation space out, and it will end in that reactive status. Due to it becoming smaller in cooling conditions and heated conditions. And who knows if a reaction would then re open it to a new cosmic beginning. For no one would know actually.
As a human brother, natural human first before thinking for science and thesis and invention is my equal. His inventive science terminology does not speak on behalf of my own female living presence.
So when you advise him that he falsified information in words by describing space as a female womb, that is word falsification by description. And when he quotes Mother Abomination, that reference is not human owned.
But when his life just from sperm and an ovary like mine quotes, but I sacrificed my life, that is because you baby male adult self was born from an ovary and did not begin from God O the stone planet. Your machine however did.
Once our Holy Father human and Mother Holy human were equally paired and united as a human choice in sex to own baby children to continue human life.
Not one human today owns the ability to talk on their behalf. We are all just from sperm and an ovary. And should remember exactly where we began so that you do not in science falsify my natural history as a human.
Today, right where I am 2 apes that you all discuss as relative, when it is FAKE relativity have ape babies in ape sex. If you think and want to tell stories that apes had sex and had a human baby who became our parents. It is correctly worded defined to be a belief, which is not fact and it is just a story told by a living human in their own life form human.
That sort of human behaviour before was science medical assessed to be determined to be a mental problem associated to human egotism to claim I know it all, when it is all just verbal and then a verbal argument. versus what is fact, right where you live now.
Belief is stated to be the human condition that has caused its owned self so many life caused changes and harm, that today is about time that a new group of rational humans teach everyone the fact of human life presence is human sex.
How anything else exists is because it does exist rational. For science is not beginning by invention the inventing of a cosmic big bang....their science is a machine designed by their owned human self, who designed it to react and what it uses to react is any product taken out of the body upon which they live.
As rational human advice for humans.
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
This is putting the cart before the horse. If God does not exist, then all of these "highly-sophisticated and complex systems" are maintained on their own, in observance of the parameters that govern action and interaction in our universe. Without verifiable evidence of God's involvement, you can't just assume that there was such involvement. Besides your first needing to evidence "God" in the first place. Figure out "God", verify His involvement and that the systems wouldn't be in place without that, and THEN you can state that all of the seemingly natural/organic stuff around us is not "nature", it is "God at work."
Also, "highly-sophisticated and complex systems" that humans crafted themselves didn't exist until long after there were humans - even if you believe the Adam and Eve account. To the point that there WAS NOT all this evidence surrounding early humanity of "highly-sophisticated and complex systems" that required a mind and focused application of intelligence. There was just nature and natural occurrence.