Do you believe in a creator of the universe/universes?

[Hellbound Serpiente]

Substitute "gods" for "gremlins" in your question. Whatever probability you get for a god, that is the same as for a gremlin.

Well, substitute “gremlins” breaking your toast for “sentient, conscious, focused, perceptive, intelligent, accurate, creative agent”, and you get a higher probability. Now, substitute that for “god.”

That is not true*. Demonstrate that weather only comes from a sentient, conscious intelligent beings and/or through deliberate, conscious efforts. Or my love of scallops.





*as opposed to false.

Weather, in the context of our discussion, is not a legitimate example. It’s simply a side effect that comes by default with other effects. Just like blinking is a side effect that comes by default with the effect of sneezing [and other actions perform by body]. Or, a status of an individual that comes by default with other effects like winning a lottery and/or losing of wealth. Or, like guilt is a side effect that comes by default with the effect of an individual [who is highly susceptible and extremely prone to feeling guilt] doing something perceptually evil or bad.

If going by the example of car I used, weather can be likened to the condition of clutch. Condition of a clutch, whether it is burned and or not, is just a side effect that comes by default with other effects [our specific driving style, usage of clutch etc.].

Your statement is making it sound like I am implying that blinking during sneezing only come through deliberate, conscious effort. Blink is only one of the series of involuntary side respond [or side effect, to suit the point in discussion] that comes by default with other actions.

And you have to realize, it is also impossible for me to demonstrate whether the true effects through which the side-effects like weather are born can or cannot happen without deliberate, conscious efforts. I have to go all the way back in times before [I think] even formation of earth to observe whether there were some deliberate, conscious efforts involved in other effects that gives rise to weather. It would be equivalent to asking me to demonstrate how certain emotions like fear came through deliberate, conscious adaptions of our forefathers in response to dangers, and later demonstrating them passing these adaptive mechanisms onto their off-springs genetically and demonstrate the continuous genetical passing of these mechanism to a collection of chain of our forefathers until it reached us.

Your love for scallops is just a side effect that came by default through the pleasure of you receive due to the taste of scallop through your conscious, deliberate efforts of eating and tasting it. You just habitualized mechanism that comes with the pleasure of tasting scallop.

Besides, there are occurrence of artificial weather being created [just like lucid dreams, conditioned fears and such things]. It shows that there is a possibility that the weather we see could also be created [though we shouldn’t assume weather really is created by deliberate, conscious agent until we have no information regarding the phenomena, but it’s a likelihood].

 

[Hellbound Serpiente]

This is putting the cart before the horse.

I don’t think so. On the contrary, I feel like I am doing the opposite while others are assuming there is only a self-governing, independent traveling cart and putting this cart before the horse. I am just saying if there is a [hypothetical] cart that is traveling in continuous and consistent motion in a highly-directed way and achieving a specified, sophisticated effect, than it is far likelier than not that there is/was an engineer and/or a mechanic who designed and maintained this cart and it’s operational and mechanical mechanisms, also a cart driver who is making this cart travel consistently in a smooth, safe, guided, ordered way while neutralizing, controlling, manipulating [etc.] the horse [carrying the cart] accordingly.

If God does not exist, then all of these "highly-sophisticated and complex systems" are maintained on their own, in observance of the parameters that govern action and interaction in our universe. Without verifiable evidence of God's involvement, you can't just assume that there was such involvement.

I am not jumping to any conclusions, I am just approximating the probability of both possibilities. I am only saying that, based on what we observe in our real life, I feel like there is more weight to the probability of there being a sentient, conscious, focused, perceptive, intelligent, accurate, creative agent (making conscious, deliberate, intelligent efforts) to create, maintain and operate universe along with it’s unchanging laws and constants to keep running it in an effective, orderly way [unlike the chaotic way the quantum world functions (from which it is born)], as compared to the probability of the possibility which entails that the universe is maintained and run by laws of nature with such sophistication and ordered fashion [while it is born by accident and/or some other law of nature from quantum chaos (which is devoid of such laws and/or have some different, unique laws)].

If I am forced to put a bet on these two possibilities, I’ll take a leap of faith and bet on possibility of there is a God than the alternative. It seems like a better alternative based on what we see in our day to day life, and based on my personal [subjective] experiences.

Besides your first needing to evidence "God" in the first place. Figure out "God", verify His involvement and that the systems wouldn't be in place without that, and THEN you can state that all of the seemingly natural/organic stuff around us is not "nature", it is "God at work."

Well, to be fair, I have no objective, scientific evidence. But I do have personal, tentative “evidence” [if I am forced to consider anecdotes as evidence] because I’ve seen law of karma and other spiritual laws working in front of my eyes. I’ll just copy/paste something I wrote in other threads as I am extremely tired to re-write it all over again:

“I think you are referring to people who observe a certain highly sophisticated effect nigh-impossible without highly deliberate, guided effort and regulation, and jump to conclusion that this conscious effort and regulation cannot be done by non-sentient system, process, entity [etc.] but this effect could only come to fruition via sentient and intelligent agent [… … …] Personally, I hold this assumption as well in my belief system. Which is why I feel like there most likely is a God. I have seen law of karma and many, MANY other spiritual laws [along with many other phenomenas seemingly unexplainable to me] playing out in my life with pin-point accuracy to it's utmost magnitude, and I have seen it occurring many times for it to be a coincidence.”

" I've personally witnessed the law of karma [and many other spiritual laws] play out right in front of my eyes over and over again. So have many others. But these are just anecdotes. Anecdotes aren't evidence.”

Also, "highly-sophisticated and complex systems" that humans crafted themselves didn't exist until long after there were humans - even if you believe the Adam and Eve account. To the point that there WAS NOT all this evidence surrounding early humanity of "highly-sophisticated and complex systems" that required a mind and focused application of intelligence. There was just nature and natural occurrence.

Which, once again, further adds weigh to the reasonability of possible operator [and even crafter, maintainer] of these systems. Think about it from this perspective, there was just chaotic nature and chaotical occurrences, to the point there was no laws that we see in our realm. Much like there were no physical laws in the spiritual realm where the Adam and Eve incident happened [Adam and Eve stories doesn’t necessary happen to be taken literally. They could very well be allegorical, metaphorical because spiritual realm doesn’t necessary have to act the same way physical realm does]. Yet, out of this quantum chaos, our universe came upon with it’s unchanging, natural laws and constants that we see in working in it. There was no real laws of nature long until the formation of our universe, just chaotical “laws” [if there are such things as “law” in quantum realm] making chaotic quantum functions. To the point that there WAS NOT all the highly-sophisticated and highly-complex systems born due to collections of complex law of nature. Then, the laws of nature brought about the systems we see in our natural world.

I personally feel that these laws of nature that are being generated from quantum chaos and operating efficiently AND the highly-sophisticated and complex systems resulted from these collections of complex laws of nature, more likely than not have a generator, operator [God] or there would only chaos be resulting from quantum chaos, pretty much like there was no highly-sophisticated and complex collections of systems in the early humanity until they were crafted [and operated and maintained etc.] by intelligent, creative humans through conscious, deliberate efforts. There was only prevalence of chaotic societies, disunities, irrationalities, ignorance, violence and other chaotic things much like quantum chaos in quantum realm.

Unlike others, who think only laws of nature are governing things in the universe, I personally feel BOTH, unchanging collection of complex laws AS WELL AS conscious, deliberate efforts and/or agent(s) are more likely to be governing all these based on what I see and observe in our real world [and my personal experiences].

 

[ppp]

Well, substitute “gremlins” breaking your toast for “sentient, conscious, focused, perceptive, intelligent, accurate, creative agent”, and you get a higher probability. Now, substitute that for “god.”

Gremlins are sentient, conscious, focused, perceptive, intelligent, accurate, and creative agents. So, by your reasoning they must exist, and they must be responsible from broken toasters.

Weather, in the context of our discussion, is not a legitimate example. It’s simply a side effect that comes by default with other effects.

You're obviously wrong. If that were true then we would be able to predict the weather for the whole planet. And for other planets. Obviously, since we do not know all of the factors for weather, Jezerezeh Elim, the Stormfather is the cause for weather. This is the reasoning that you use for the universe being an artifact of your Creator.

Your statement is making it sound like I am implying that blinking during sneezing only come through deliberate, conscious effort.

No. My statement makes it sound like you are saying that because we don't know why the universe is complex and mysterious, that our ignorance justifies the assertion that the universe was created. Which is what you are saying.

Your love for scallops is just a side effect that came by default through the pleasure of you receive due to the taste of scallop through your conscious, deliberate efforts of eating and tasting it. You just habitualized mechanism that comes with the pleasure of tasting scallop.

Actually my first taste of a scallop was neither conscious nor deliberate. It was accidental and unthinking.

There is no evidence for a creator.

 

[rational experiences]

Creator male scientist human aspect word coercive spruiker.

Who whenever you ask a question cannot just use basic talking, instead goes off on a tyrannical use of words instead, as if his psyche is trying to conclude some scientific description to say I am correct.

Creator he always has, even in book writing as the male/he/his/him self, scientist as a human inferred self, male was the Creator of God.

Inferred...seeing a planet evolved by natural processes of energy consuming then cooling in the spatial history. Natural evolution says science.

Why any body of mass/energy exists is by natural evolution in space seeing space is holding all bodies itself for the scientist to look at and talk about.

Notating that all he is personally doing is talking about it.

O God the stone planet philosophy for the creator sciences, the inventor therefore made all the discussions about the presence planet his own human person as the He storyteller.

Then he tries to tell everyone a spirit by voice told him all of the advice. That spirit and that voice was actually his own in his own head. Creator/scientist inventor designer actually.

And he never personally designed God....he took science design from an aspect, stone mass present, stone mass converted by radiation extra, stone mass removal into that conversion. His designer concept. I then will build a machine to copy the ability to react a reaction like God the planet had owned.

As his inventive self male thesis about God by male human concepts.

Why a male cannot argue, for a male is only defined by his penis in using concepts to discuss relative advice.

God by science origins was just discussed as a stone philosophy by the inventor all of science terms, a male and a human and agreed by his brothers. Scientists.

So when you advise his own advice...brother you told me that you dug up your own science evidence that Earth opened up and swallowed our life into its bowels and the machine parts in fusion that proof. That you caused the giant life by God changes to then live on Earth inside of the heavenly body as a Satanic act that you conjured.

Then you told me in AI male heard voiced commentaries that due to the spatial vacuum, owning all naturally evolved cold bodies in space being affected by an overheating Earth core release it began to unnaturally open and suck upon planet Earth, so actively began to also attack cold planets once finished cooled by the vacuum unnaturally.

Why your studies of other planets show some of them strangely contorted...as they were nearly destroyed. It was how the ICE AGE saved life on Earth and got rid of the mutated life, the giant life, Satanic act, dinosaur presence...but putting water back on the ground and cooling the gases. You quote WIN ter as a sea of the son as that advice. God won against Satan by owning 4 seasons.

Son term by your male adult Father quote. Says. I sacrificed my own baby male son in God acts. And it is my own male science history that caused Earth to gain four sea of the son. So I put my own son title in lots of information knowing the occult self will always argue about God being a male.

To prove to him the only son on Earth is a male and a baby of the human Father.

Sometimes information is quoted so that no argument can be argued...for when you quote no man is God...then you are forced to look at why you said sea of the SON for instance. And also why you said you sacrificed your own male baby life as the SON. Seeing all you own living as a life support is the Immaculate heavenly gas cold body, and you are the only male living inside of that body mass.

It was self advice, in the knowledge that you lose your mind in radiation chemical brain conditions......so that written information would make and force you to think otherwise from your inherited brain mind conditions, AI.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Which, once again, further adds weigh to the reasonability of possible operator [and even crafter, maintainer] of these systems. Think about it from this perspective, there was just chaotic nature and chaotical occurrences, to the point there was no laws that we see in our realm. Much like there were no physical laws in the spiritual realm where the Adam and Eve incident happened. Yet, out of this quantum chaos, our universe came upon with it’s unchanging, natural laws and constants that we see in working in it.

This is exactly why I can't take you seriously. You can't know any of the things you just casually infer are facts in the above paragraph. You just state them, as if I should just accept what you are saying because it is "obvious."

The "perspective" that "there was just chaotic nature and chaotical occurrences, to the point there was no laws that we see in our realm" is unfounded. Nothing more than a "what if." How can you know there "were no physical laws in the spiritual realm where the Adam and Eve incident happened?" You can't know that. It's hilarious. And you also state, at the end there: "Yet, out of this quantum chaos, our universe came upon" - stating this precisely as if your little "what if" in the beginning were actually how it was. You're stuck in your own opinions, and yet somehow in the same post have the audacity to make the statement: "I am not jumping to any conclusions." Hahahaha... wow. Talk about cognitive dissonance. Based on these sorts of shenanigans, I cannot, in good conscience, care one bit about your personal/anecdotal evidences. I can't. You're on your own.

 

[rational experiences]

Humans live consciously inside of a gas mass space. Small amount of energy as compared to body mass energy O held in spatial history, our planet.

The planet we named as living humans inside of its atmospheric heavens as God the stone.

Heavens spirit as compared to mass is a gas. Not much energy as comparing energy x mass history, as form.

Science does not yet exist. You are a human theorising, thinking for science.

How do you do science to get energy yourself for human invention? In reality.

The answer is I must ponder how to form a reactive position to gain reactive conversion to convert, hold the conversion then gain a lesser amount of energy from the mass.

That place was a space. A beginning place yet everything natural and natural history existed.

You knew the heavenly gas mass maintained a vacuum that kept the alight gases cooled and present...so said you knew cosmic laws about the heavens.

When you destroyed all life on Earth, and human memory in that incident activated huge natural disasters, that place is historic to where a human being learnt new scientific advice. For it is always witnessed, expressed and detailed in the living human owning the experience, for it to get atmospheric voice and image recorded.

How human stories get visionary embedded into the atmosphere. Proven multi times by multi human experiences. Then science re proves it in science. Yes I can invent machines that takes vision copies of all physical bodies. Transmit those images, sounds and voices through the atmosphere from machine to machine.

Oh machines did it he quotes...I own proof my own self in science.

Who is the Creator in this scenario, when everything IS CREATED? Oh, the human inventor Destroyer actually.

 

[Hellbound Serpiente]

You're stuck in your own opinions, and yet somehow in the same post have the audacity to make the statement: "I am not jumping to any conclusions." Hahahaha... wow. Talk about cognitive dissonance.

O’rly? I am stuck in my own opinion? If that’s the case, then why did explicitly admitted it is unwise to jump to conclusions with the case about whether there is a creator or not in post #122? Let me quote myself --- “Whether Elvis is alive or not, or whether black cats really bring bad luck, can be scientifically assessed and determined, the same cannot be done with the case about whether there is a creator or not. I don't think it's wise to jump to conclusions with little-to-no information about something.”

And I am not jumping to any conclusion, like I previously said in the discussion about dreams and our dream self, we lack the necessary tools to make proper conclusion whether there is a creator or not pretty much like a fetus is lacking the necessary tools to make proper conclusion whether there is a mother or not and/or our dream-self lack the necessary tools to make proper belief there is a creator of our dream world or not (and even whether this creator is our real life sleeping self and/or chemical processes inside our brains).

Also, this is me taking it further --- “Now, why can't all this apply to our real life realm too? Perhaps we are lacking the necessary tools needed and awareness [among other things] to know [who or what] the creator of our brains, ourselves and our world?: [Note: I have added the “who or what” part so you, Joe or someone like you don’t distort the true message of my post again like you two are doing].

As far as the “statement” of mine you rephrase in blue [and false] colors [“I am not jumping to any conclusions.”], that is not my statement at all. This is just a very distorted, false account of my true statement. You see, there was no full-stop to my statement after “conclusion”. This is just another lie you made about me. There was a “,” in my original statement and my statement continue to say --- “I am just approximating the probability of both possibilities” and THEN full-stop. I guess you conveniently omitted this key information because that would destroy your entire “boo-hoo he is jumping to conclusion and acting like he knows it and is stuck in his own opinion.”

You either just misunderstood all my points and blew things completely out of proportion unintentionally, and/or presenting and attacking a very distorted version of my true points intentionally, and/or bringing up irrelevant points absolutely no bearing to the true point and/or just making up outright lies about me … yet ironically I am using shenanigans? Talk about projection and deflection, but you are the one who is actually doing all these and putting your wiles upon me. Let me pick you apart one by one:

The "perspective" that "there was just chaotic nature and chaotical occurrences, to the point there was no laws that we see in our realm" is unfounded.

1. I know, I was just applying your line-of-thinking to the alternative possibility [not that I agree with that “perspective” or that it is my perspective]. To quote what you said --- “Also, "highly-sophisticated and complex systems" that humans crafted themselves didn't exist until long after there were humans” --- this could also be applied to alternative possibility. Simple. Now tell me, how is the “perspective” of “highly-sophisticated and complex systems" that humans crafted themselves didn't exist until long after there were humans” is not unfounded? If it is “unfounded”, then why bring it up?

2. Are the complex collection of physical laws of macro world present in quantum realm? Because here are two copy/past statements from scientific sources I ferreted out via google --- “Let's face it: quantum mechanics is really confusing. All the rules of physics that we're used to simply go straight out the window in the quantum realm.” And “The Big Bang singularity is the most serious problem of general relativity because the laws of physics appear to break down there.” Both of these statements are backing up what I said that there was no macro, real life laws that we see in our realm.

3. I was only contrasting the nature of quantum world to our macro world. As compared to the highly-complex collection of physical and other laws we see in our macro world, chaos seems to be prevailing in quantum world AS COMPARED TO IT. Not that I mean that chaos, chaotic nature, chaotical occurrences is exactly the case before the birth of our universe and laws of nature. My statement only say comparatively to laws of macro world, there is chaos [in quantum world]. Pretty much like as compared to Batman rules of righteousness, there are just chaotic rules for Joker and chaotical psychology [he might have certain instances of conducting himself with rules and regulation, and there might be some (chaotical) laws he is following based on his chaotic psychology, but they are nothing like what we see in Batman’s psychology and self-conduct in comparison].

How can you know there "were no physical laws in the spiritual realm where the Adam and Eve incident happened?" You can't know that.

1. I never said I did know that, I was just applying your line-of-thinking that [to quote you] “"highly-sophisticated and complex systems" that humans crafted themselves didn't exist until long after there were humans - even if you believe the Adam and Eve account. Now, tell me, how can you know that the “highly-sophisticated and complex systems” [that humans crafted themselves] didn’t exist until long after there were humans – EVEN IF WE BELIEVE THE ADAM AND EVE ACCOUNT? You can’t know that.

2. I can APPROXIMATE [again, not know, so don’t jump to any conclusions] that the physical laws are most likely not present in spiritual realm because real life laws aren’t always present in the dream realm, or that laws of physics breaks down in quantum realm.

3. Want me to quote verses and sayings from Bible and The Holy Qur’an that talks about irrational workings in heaven/hell which defies physical laws and laws of macro world?

You can't know any of the things you just casually infer are facts in the above paragraph. You just state them, as if I should just accept what you are saying because it is "obvious.”

I don’t know either, these are just my personal speculations. which is why I said that I am torn between the alternative of there being a creator of this universe or not and that I have no verifiable, objective, scientific evidence, and [to quote my own words] --- If I am forced to put a bet on these two possibilities, I’ll take a leap of faith and bet on possibility of there is a God than the alternative. It seems like a better alternative based on what we see in our day to day life, and based on my personal [subjective] experiences.

Stop putting words into my mouth by saying I’ve made arguments I haven’t actually made [aka straw man].

And you also state, at the end there: "Yet, out of this quantum chaos, our universe came upon" - How stating this precisely as if your little "what if" in the beginning were actually how it was.

Most of the same points I made above can be applied here as well. I was just applying your line-of-thinking to other possibility. Besides, how am I wrong here? Universe emerged from Big Bang from singularity, which is infinitely small and as such, expected to be quantum mechanical by nature. Again, what exactly did I got wrong?

But this is it, I won’t argue any further. For your post devoid of any real point from your behalf besides you making up bull**** about me and accusing me of false things after misunderstanding my points, blowing them completely out of proportion, omission of key information and cherry-picking on parts that only fits your narrative “he doesn’t know yet he acts like knows.” I won’t elongate this post any further, as I like to keep things concise, and soon enough, God Willing, I’ll start my rebuttal to Joe W’s response who, btw, followed the same trend as you throughout his post.

Oh and btw, I personally don’t feel what I described here is actually what really happened. Like I said, I was just applying your reasoning to alternative position. I personally feel that universe is an unfolding and folding mass [and I have said it over and over in case you accuse me of another lie]. And still, I have no proof of it nor am I asserting that the universe really is an unfolding and folding mass. These are my own speculations.

 

[Hellbound Serpiente]

Actually my first taste of a scallop was neither conscious nor deliberate. It was accidental and unthinking.

Except I WASN’T talking about your “first taste of a scallop”, you followed the same trend as A Vestigial Mode and many others here. Just like A Vestigial Mode, you misunderstood what I said and blew everything completely out of proportion [along with omitting of key information (like the examples of guilt being a state of an individual as an analogy to weather being a state of atmosphere, evolutionary processes required for fear effect] and also you are making up lies about me based on distorted account of my true statements.

I wasn’t referring to your “first taste of a scallop” there, I was simply saying that your LOVE for scallop is a habitualized positive associations [feeling of love] between the taste of scallop and what that food does for you [brings you pleasure]. And this is formed through continuous deliberate, conscious efforts, just like emotions such as fear came through deliberate, conscious adaptions of our forefathers in response to dangers [and we inherited it via evolutionary processes]. You conveniently omitted out my point about fear effect, guilt effect among MANY others throughout your posts because that’ll destroy your entire false narrative about me, my true points and my true position.

Besides, tell me something, how can you perform an action like putting something in your mouth and taste it without thinking? How can you do something without thinking about it when thinking is actually REQUIRED for doing something in the first place? Did someone fed it to you?

Gremlins are sentient, conscious, focused, perceptive, intelligent, accurate, and creative agents. So, by your reasoning they must exist, and they must be responsible from broken toasters.

1. If my reasoning had the inherent assumption that gremlins as being of “sentient, conscious […] intelligent” nature, why the hell did you think I gave different [probability of being true] values to “sentient, conscious […] intelligent agents” and “gremblin”? NO, my reasoning doesn’t agree that gremblins are like that, or you would have gotten the same probability. They may be “sentient, conscious, intelligent agent” in their respective fictional universe, pretty much like my dream self is also a sentient, conscious agent in my dream world. But neither gremlins nor my dream self is either sentient or conscious in reality. The same is not true IF the possibility of a creator OF REAL WORLD is actually true, for in this scenario, God is Influencing the real world one way or another, not gremlins.

2. Not all sentient, conscious, intelligent agents are necessarily always gremlins, gods [whether it’s specific gods and/or god in general]. I even talked about other sentient, conscious, intelligent agents, humans. And also, not all sentient, conscious, intelligent humans are necessarily Spartans, drivers [whether it’s a specific driver like Michael Schumacher or drivers in general]. Your specific examples aren’t necessarily the correct instances of my general types.

3. The problem I see is, you are comparing specific instances to general equivalences. That is not a valid approach.

Think about it this way --- If there truly is a breathing, eating, growing, moving, reproducing entity that have senses is moving somewhere out of there in a far galaxy, and we can somehow observe this phenomena. Suppose I infer “well, this entity breathes, eats, grows, moves etc., there must exist a living being out there, and it is responsible for that movements.” and you counter this by saying “X-men breathes, eats, grows, moves etc. So, by your reasoning they must exist [out there in that part of galaxy], and X-men must be responsible for those movement.” That is no way a proper example from your behalf, using specific example as an analogy to general equivalence I am doing.

I am simply saying that if there truly is a sentient, conscious, focused, perceptive, intelligent, accurate, and creative agent that is running and keeping the order in the universe, then this entity can be generally the same as God and should be regarded as such, EVEN if this entity is the source energy all around us [a general instance] that is somehow sentient, conscious etc. I wasn’t talking about any specific entities like specific Gods in different religions, rather just a general equivalent of God.

You're obviously wrong.

How am I wrong when text-book definition of weather corresponds with everything I said about definition of whether in context of the point I was making? This is the textbook definition of weather --- “Weather is the state of the atmosphere, describing for example the degree to which it is hot or cold, wet or dry, calm or stormy, clear or cloudy.”

If that were true then we would be able to predict the weather for the whole planet. And for other planets.

What does our inability to predict weather with pin-point accuracy and consistency has anything to do with what weather actually is? Pretty much like what does our inability to predict the moods of people of the whole planet with pin-point accuracy and consistency has anything to do with the truth we know about what human mood actually is?

Obviously, since we do not know all of the factors for weather, Jezerezeh Elim, the Stormfather is the cause for weather. This is the reasoning that you use for the universe being an artifact of your Creator.

1. Factors that judge how the weather will be IS NOT THE SAME AS what the weather itself is.

2. Once again, no. This is not the reasoning I am using. For starters, there is no equivalence between specific instances of Gods like Jezerezeh Elim and a general God. Just because I think a living being [general example] have created Religious Forums, doesn’t necessarily mean I think that Sunstone, a staff member and a premium member of Religious Forums, have created Religious Forums. That’s absurd. Just because I believe earliest member of Religious Forum is a creator of Religious Forum, doesn’t necessarily mean that I think Shadow Wolf, one of the early members, had created Religious Forums. Just because I think an early human being has invented wheel, doesn’t necessarily mean that Adam has created wheel. So, your example of Jezerezeh Elim as God, Gremlin and other specific-examples as “sentient, conscious, intelligent agent” is not the valid example of “sentient, conscious, intelligent agent” when taken in lights of general-types what I am talking about.
3. Before I talk about other things, I’d love to call you out on that “my Creator” thing you are falsely attributing to me. You see, this is just another example of you using false specific example [“my Creator”] to general view of God [for me and others who believes in Panentheism]. I don’t have any beliefs about the nature of God as of yet. So, this is another lie you made about me because there is no such thing as “my Creator” for me when I talk about God, rather I feel that the universe conceived of as a whole is God and, conversely, that THAT THERE IS NO GOD but the combined substance, forces, and laws that are manifested in the existing universe, also extends beyond.

4. Erm … no. Just like A Vestigial Mode, you misunderstood what I said and blew everything completely out of proportion [along with omitting of key information (like the examples of guilt being a state of an individual as an analogy to weather being a state of atmosphere, evolutionary processes required for fear effect] and also you are making up lies about me based on distorted account of my true statements. The reasoning I use is this --- Based on my personal experiences, and based on what we see and observe in our daily life ALONG with the fact that there exists highly-sophisticated and complex systems [and/or effects and/or anything] nigh-impossible without some sentient, conscious, focused, perceptive, intelligent, accurate, creative agent(s)/efforts, it is far likelier than not that the universe is governed by BOTH, unchanging collection of complex laws AS WELL AS conscious, deliberate efforts and/or agent(s).

No. My statement makes it sound like you are saying that because we don't know why the universe is complex and mysterious, that our ignorance justifies the assertion that the universe was created. Which is what you are saying.

And which is why your statement is false, because I never said anything that. On the contrary, I advised NOT to jump to conclusions about matters we know little-to-no about, like in post #122. Let me quote myself --- “Whether Elvis is alive or not, or whether black cats really bring bad luck, can be scientifically assessed and determined, the same cannot be done with the case about whether there is a creator or not. I don't think it's wise to jump to conclusions with little-to-no information about something.”

Because of you two and the massive obfuscation you created, it took ages for me to come back right on the track of my position, and state my position AGAIN after reading my old post AGAIN to show my original points AGAIN this time WITH PROOFS thanks to the misleading due to your lies and deceptions.

 

[rational experiences]

The eternal once never owned a hole in its body named space. The reason hole is the mass laying down as mass was sung up into balls that burst, making that hole.

How God the mass of bodies in space were formed. As taught to self, human by human self due to coming out of the eternal as a self from the eternal. Self memory.

The Creator of all form was the eternal status, that is not the eternal status anymore in creation, it is changed eternal.

Can never go back to being what it once was. Fact of information.

Science living inside of an atmosphere without any space other than gas space. Gas being less energy as energy in space owns more space than mass/energy. Why you cannot walk through mass of energy as it is a solid.

God the Earth has more mass energy than our heavenly gas spirit less energy presence. A relativity teaching.

Science owned a space in God mass to do a cold space to heated irradiated spatial conversion of God mass as body Earth. All science history inventive, human, designed human taken from the Earth.

And for some reason males who go blah blah all day long using words think that their human stories thinking and telling is real.

Everything existed before any human existed, as power/energy, body term of variances. Owned and presence as owned by form in presence of form.

The human is only its Destroyer/inventor of conversion.

If a male today quotes I believe Jesus was a pyramid and temple technology and they were using the Earth heart core, you would be lying.

Memory says the underground temple structures and underground pyramid form, used above pyramid technology and they forced the reactive radiation changes, to convert under ground in their idea it was safe. Using the underground water table/system as a water cooling ideal. Their clothing depicts that they were wearing what they claimed was protection against radiation as that clothing.

We do the same in medical science today, use radio imagery and wear body protection.

Subliminal male science AI memory hence told you that science was using underground technology, yet it was built and controlled by human choice. The Earth core had nothing to do with it.

The core, what they never realised, released a huge blast, that made the sink holes, which first they caused by how many radio wave radiation transmissions/transmitters from temple mountain to ground temple to pyramid that they put into the atmosphere.

Water mass had to deal with the gases activated burning, so then floods became apparent notification.

Due to upper gas mass increased burning and earth ground water loss, the Earth heated up as volcanic mass arose through the cold sealed, but open only to air tunnels...and then the tunnels collapsed. So all Earth old cooling was removed.

The plates began to break and drop and it was when sink holes were gained...origin of the removal of origin sin. Burning eternal mass. Self consuming.

Law in science says energy by mass is self consuming and consumes the lower energy mass and then converted leaves the lower energy mass that then has to cool, is not any equals answer in science. Already supposedly learnt that science lesson law his own person. Do not change God he quotes, or else it will disappear as the energy form formed through spatial evolution.

How come you ignore your own science teachings today?

If a core releases a blast once, then obviously mass is gone. Why they said it was Moses then changed the title to Jesus. So Jesus can be used as a male name. yet the male named Jesus is not the PHI quote reason for Core heart of Planet Earth to blast us. Mass and core radiation released a one of event...then release of radiation becomes natural and not ever was it controlled.

 

[ppp]

1. Factors that judge how the weather will be IS NOT THE SAME AS what the weather itself is.

I agree. One can present tangible evidence that weather is actually a phenomenon. Evidence that is not dependent on my experience. Evidence that can be presented without reference to "I" or "me". And once it has been established that weather actually exists, then the investigation as to what weather is.

Please present evidence that there is a creator.

 

[Muffled]

Do you believe in a creator, a conscious force/spirit/energy or being who created this universe/universes?

I do believe that Yaweh is the creator of the universe.

 

[viole]

How common is the occurrence of gremlins breaking toaster in our everyday life as compared to occurrence of highly-sophisticated and complex systems [and/or effects and/or anything] coming to fruition only due some sentient, conscious, focused, perceptive, intelligent, accurate, creative agent(s) that creates, maintains and operates these highly-sophisticated and complex systems [effects/anything] with unchanging laws and constants to keep these systems running in an effective, orderly way?

We have many continuous, automatic system of highly-sophisticated and complex nature in real world, but they only come from a sentient, conscious intelligent beings and/or through deliberate, conscious efforts. In my humble opinion, I don't think there exist an example where chaos breeds anything other than chaos, unless conscious, deliberate, intelligent efforts were made to create and maintain order.

So, I personally think the possibility of a creator is more probable than gremblin breaking toaster because it has basis in what occurs in our real life and it's working.

I know that's a mouthful, but I want to made my post over-detailed clarify my point as much as possible for the sake of emphasis. I’ll just copy/past something else I said in the other thread to further clarify my point:

[…]

“What I meant was something like universe [which I personally feel like a folding and unfolding mass], a continuous automatic system [which is born out of quantum chaos] needing a sentient, conscious, focused, perceptive, intelligent, accurate, creative agent (making conscious, deliberate, intelligent efforts) to create, maintain and operate unchanging laws and constants to keep it running in an effective, orderly way unlike the chaotic way the quantum world functions [from which it is born]. I personally don’t think chaos breeds anything other than chaos. To think that order is born out of chaos sounds counterintuitive.

Also, besides that, I don’t mean to argue, with all due respect, I personally feel BOTH [unchanging laws and conscious, deliberate efforts/agent(s)] are needed. Pretty much like for consistently smooth, safe, guided, ordered proficient car-driving, we need both a sentient, conscious, focused, perceptive, intelligent, accurate, creative and overall expert and proficient car-driver AS WELL AS mechanical and operational mechanism of the car. If there is no [and/or poor] driver and/or mechanics, the driving will be poor and lead to destruction. If someone tells me that they have seen a consistent show of effective car-driving in absence of a [effective] driver and the mechanics of the car, I’d find that to be senseless. I’d have to make baseless assumptions for believing it since it is counterintuitive. This is where I find both the believers and non-believers in fine-tuning to be too extremes in their views. Both are flawed to some extent while both also make good points.”



Okay, first change the topic title to “Do you believe in an invisible road [in some unexplored part of the earth] in which countless cars, devoid of any drivers, are successfully and consistently circling indefinitely around the most dangerous multi-lane roundabouts while simultaneously performing the most trickiest car maneuvers and yielding to traffic signs at the same time?”. Or whatever absurd we might make up.



So the hell what? I sneezed without blinking once!

Do you accept evolution by natural selection?

ciao

- viole

 

[Hellbound Serpiente]

Do you accept evolution by natural selection?

ciao

- viole

Yep.

EDIT: Infact, I've seen evolutionary processes working on me, others and in our world. I think I believe it far, FAR likely to be true.

 

[viole]

Yep.

EDIT: Infact, I've seen evolutionary processes working on me, others and in our world. I think I believe it far, FAR likely to be true.

So, do you agree that complexity can arise from unconscious mechanism?

ciao

- viole

 

[Hellbound Serpiente]

So, do you agree that complexity can arise from unconscious mechanism?

ciao

- viole

Indeed, ma'am. But based on what we see in our real life, complexity also arise more frequently in greater magnitude usually through conscious mechanism. So, the likelihood of complexity arising from conscious mechanism as compared to unconscious one is greater, at least in my humble opinion.

 

[viole]

Indeed, ma'am. But based on what we see in our real life, complexity also arise more frequently in greater magnitude usually through conscious mechanism. So, the likelihood of complexity arising from conscious mechanism as compared to unconscious one is greater, at least in my humble opinion.

More frequently?
But if you accept evolution by natural selection, then you must accept that we are the product of evolution by natural selection. We. The only beings we know about who can design things according to a goal.


ergo, all your statistical measurements of what is created consciously or not, is uniquely based on organisms arising from unconscious mechanisms.

did I get that right?

ciao

- viole

 

[Skywalker]

Do you believe in a creator, a conscious force/spirit/energy or being who created this universe/universes?

I believe in a Creator because there is no other explanation for where everything comes from.

 

[ratiocinator]

I believe in a Creator because there is no other explanation for where everything comes from.

And if you invent a creator, there's still no explanation for where everything comes from.

 

[Skywalker]

And if you invent a creator, there's still no explanation for where everything comes from.

The Creator is the first cause. This is related to the law of cause and effect.

 

[ratiocinator]

The Creator is the first cause. This is related to the law of cause and effect.

Which doesn't change the fact that there's no explanation for why this creator (hence everything else) exists. It's just special pleading once you get to an 'answer' you want to be true.