Do You Believe In Eternal Suffering?

[Twilight Hue]

Suffering comes and goes. So no, there is no reason to believe suffering is eternal.

 

[wizanda]

Every morning i wake up here, i remember suffering.... Yet people think this nightmare for many, is heavenly for some reason.

The people who end up stuck lower down than here, are already suffering internally; as they've lost the heart of a child within and become twisted, which hurts when we feel it in the hereafter.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I don't believe we suffer in the afterlife. Suffering, as in pain, is physical and mental. I don't believe we have a sinful nature (if we're talking of Christianity), so the suffering or pain I receive would be here... after I die, my spirit will go on to the next stage of existence.

I guess the only way I understand it is that what we do in this life has consequences both good and bad. Some of these consequences affect our spirit. Since our spirit does not die, those consequences stay with our spirit until it reconciles itself to it's inherited nature.

I'd assume suffering is eternal; because when our spirit continues on we will still have our challenges to overcome and successes to gleam over. I don't believe in the "heaven" concept where we will be free without pain. Life is a constant interaction between pain/pleasure--cause/effect.

Maybe we'll get to a day that we are all peaceful within ourselves and deal with pain in healthy ways. Nonetheless, suffering can't be eternal as long as our bodies and spirits are made to heal itself.

I opened a similar thread before but i couldn't express myself well enough.So what i mean with suffering is suffering actual pain.I mean like you are burning etc.

So what do you believe?

 

[Glaurung]

I opened a similar thread before but i couldn't express myself well enough.So what i mean with suffering is suffering actual pain.I mean like you are burning etc.

So what do you believe?

If by eternal suffering you are talking about the suffering experienced in Hell, then yes. But I don't believe that the suffering experienced in Hell is something that is so much inflicted upon you by God, but is instead an unfortunate result of being separated from experiencing his love. Hell is a place that is devoid of any trace of love, so all that there is to experience is pain and hatred as there is nothing good which is not derived directly from God. (Which to be in Hell requires the rejection of).

 

[Rick O'Shez]

So what do you believe?

The poll questions didn't make a lot of sense to me, particularly the reference to "sinners".

 

[JayJayDee]

If by eternal suffering you are talking about the suffering experienced in Hell, then yes. But I don't believe that the suffering experienced in Hell is something that is so much inflicted upon you by God, but is instead an unfortunate result of being separated from experiencing his love. Hell is a place that is devoid of any trace of love, so all that there is to experience is pain and hatred as there is nothing good which is not derived directly from God. (Which to be in Hell requires the rejection of).

In order for people to suffer after death...they must still be alive. That means that death isn't really death, but a doorway to another kind of life.

The Bible does not teach that we have some conscious part of ourselves that survives the death of the body. When God sentenced Adam for his sin, (the only one that carried the death penalty) he did not mention any afterlife at all. He simply told Adam that he was going back to where he came from.....
"In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Gen 3:19)

If there had been another more dreadful option, don't you think God would have warned Adam about it? If he had been told about eternal suffering in a hell of torment, he might have made a different decision.

The place where all the dead go in Hebrew is called "Sheol". Its Greek equivalent is "hades" and yet the Jews had no teaching of a hell of eternal conscious torment. Sheol was simply the grave and that is all hades is too. There is no conscious existence in this place.

Solomon wrote...."There is hope for whoever is among the living, because a live dog is better off than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun.....
10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, (Sheol) where you are going." (Eccl 9:4-6)

There is no activity, no planning and no knowledge and no wisdom in the grave; the place to which we all go.

God never gave his people the choice between heaven and hell....he gave them the choice between life and death...that's all.

So heaven isn't the opposite of hell......there is no such place, because the dead are truly dead. They sleep until it is God's time to raise them.....just as Jesus raised Lazarus.

Eternal death is the opposite of eternal life. It's really that simple. No suffering...no torment.

 

[Glaurung]

In order for people to suffer after death...they must still be alive. That means that death isn't really death, but a doorway to another kind of life.

This is true. Every human soul is immortal by the will of God. Those separated from him are separated from his presence insofar as they cannot experience his love. They are still not independent from God, which is a state in which nothing can exist.

The Bible does not teach that we have some conscious part of ourselves that survives the death of the body. When God sentenced Adam for his sin, (the only one that carried the death penalty) he did not mention any afterlife at all. He simply told Adam that he was going back to where he came from.....
"In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Gen 3:19)

God created us as a perfect union of body and soul and our immortality consists in such union. However Adam by his sin had lost the initial immortality of his body, hence he became subject to natural death. The rational soul continues to exist in an unnatural state until the time comes when we are reunited with our bodies in the second coming. There is nothing in that verse that in any way implies that the dead are unconscious, only that the body has become subject to mortality.

If there had been another more dreadful option, don't you think God would have warned Adam about it? If he had been told about eternal suffering in a hell of torment, he might have made a different decision.

Christ continually warns us of a place of eternal punishment and suffering. Just two examples

Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life

In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

Christ is clearly imping that those in Hell are conscious.

The place where all the dead go in Hebrew is called "Sheol". Its Greek equivalent is "hades" and yet the Jews had no teaching of a hell of eternal conscious torment. Sheol was simply the grave and that is all hades is too. There is no conscious existence in this place.

Firstly, my faith is in the words of Christ and that of his Church, not in the beliefs of the Jews which were various at the time.

Secondly, as my quote in Luke shows, Christ clearly talks of the condemned rich man as being very conscious in Hades.

There is hope for whoever is among the living, because a live dog is better off than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun.....
10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, (Sheol) where you are going.

Most of those who have ever lived have been forgotten to the world, their toils and gains now for naught; their wisdom was unable to save them from the transience of earthly life. But there is nothing here that implies that the dead are unconscious, only that they are dead to the world. Indeed, there are no gains to be had after death as the time to work for our salvation is here on Earth. There's nothing here contrary to the orthodox teaching of our immortality, it's simply your reading in your pre-decided interpretation. Which mind you, is in clear contradiction with the words Christ, who is none other than fully God himself.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

I opened a similar thread before but i couldn't express myself well enough.So what i mean with suffering is suffering actual pain.I mean like you are burning etc.

So what do you believe?

I believe that sinners who reject God will be punished eternally, that is what the Bible says.

I do not know the nature of the pain, whether it can be called "physical", but it is certainly unpleasant, where the "worm dies not", with "unquenchable fire" (whether that is physical fire I am unsure) and where there is "gnashing of teeth", so the people there are conscious.

Our only hope is to trust in Jesus who will give us new life, real life, not slavery to sin and the flesh, deserving of damnation.

 

[Simplelogic]

I opened a similar thread before but i couldn't express myself well enough.So what i mean with suffering is suffering actual pain.I mean like you are burning etc.

So what do you believe?

I believe "lake of fire" is an incinerator which destroys evil people. No torture, no burning just destruction.

 

[roger1440]

I didn't believe in eternal suffering until I met my ex. It seemed to be endless.

 

[JayJayDee]

This is true. Every human soul is immortal by the will of God. Those separated from him are separated from his presence insofar as they cannot experience his love. They are still not independent from God, which is a state in which nothing can exist.

Many people believe in an immortal soul, but you will not find such a teaching in God's word. There is mention of immortality, but it is granted only to those with "the heavenly calling" (Heb 3:1) who will join Jesus as co-rulers in his kingdom. These were not to awaken from the sleep of death until his return. (1 Thess 4:13-17) These were to "rise first", so no one was to be resurrected before they were. (Rev 20:6) The dead are not alive somewhere.

The Jews were instructed by God's prophets who wrote under inspiration and none of the writers of the OT mentioned anything about an immortal soul. This teaching was adopted (along with other unscriptural notions) by the nation when it became apostate and the Christians did the same in apostatising after Jesus and his apostles died. It was foretold. (1 Tim 4:1-3)

Jesus never taught about any conscious part of man that survives death.

If all are simply in Sheol, (the grave) then all are "asleep" and cannot experience anything. Like Lazarus they are awakened from the sleep of death. (John 11:11-14)

God created us as a perfect union of body and soul and our immortality consists in such union. However Adam by his sin had lost the initial immortality of his body, hence he became subject to natural death.

This may be what you have been taught, but it finds no support in the Bible.
The word "soul" (Heb, nephesh, Greek, psyche) is never used of a disembodied spirit. It is often translated "creature" because that is exactly what it means. A soul is a living breathing creature, not a departed spirit.
You have accepted a pagan falsehood as Biblical truth.

When God sentenced Adam to death, he really meant what he said. The living creature that was Adam, ceased to breathe and died. He returned to the dust, just as God had said. No hint of an afterlife is mentioned. We have no superiority over the animals in death. (Eccl 3:19, 20) We have the same "spirit" (breath) and die the same death as they do.

The Jews never believed in an afterlife, except by resurrection back to life on earth.

The rational soul continues to exist in an unnatural state until the time comes when we are reunited with our bodies in the second coming.

Again...I have heard of this before. Can you provide Biblical back-up for this idea? Where does it say that life continues after death?

Remember that in the garden, the penalty for disobedience was death. There was no "natural" cause of death mentioned for the simple reason, there wasn't any. Right there in the garden was the means of everlasting life...in the flesh. (The tree of life) When Adam took the forbidden fruit and ate it, that 'means' was taken away and barred for the rest of man's sinful life on earth. (Gen 3:22-24) If God barred the way to the everlasting life he purposed, why give man everlasting life in another form or realm?

Where does it say that souls are reunited with their bodies at Christ's second coming? Chapter and verse please.

There is nothing in that verse that in any way implies that the dead are unconscious, only that the body has become subject to mortality.

Man was not created to be immortal. If he was, he could not have died, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden would have been meaningless. The death penalty would have been a lie.

No creation was immortal...not the angels or even the son of God. Anything that can die cannot be immortal. It is an indestructible life.
Many confuse everlasting life with immortality...they are not the same.

Immortality is granted as a reward for faithful adherence to God's commands on the part of the chosen ones. It isn't granted to everyone.

Christ continually warns us of a place of eternal punishment and suffering. Just two examples

Your examples are not saying what you think they are saying.

2 Peter 2:9....."then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trial, but to keep the unrighteous under guard awaiting punishment on the day of judgment" (Mounce Interlinear)

The same Interlinear renders Matthew 25:46...."And these will depart to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

So in Matt 25:46, Jesus is saying to the "goats" that they will be eternally punished. That punishment does not have to be conscious. Eternal death is also a punishment. This is what the Jews understood "Gehenna" (often mistranslated as hell) to mean. Anything thrown into the fires of Gehenna (the city's gargage dump) was completely destroyed, never to be seen again. It meant not having a burial tomb in order to be remembered by God in the resurrection. The Jews that were listening to Jesus knew exactly what he meant. The apostate church in the following centuries turned God into a fiendish torturer. The whole idea is completely foreign to him. (Jer 7:30, 31; 32:35)

Christ is clearly implying that those in Hell are conscious.

A closer reading of that parable will disclose that it is not a literal scenario.
The characters in this story represent two groups of people. The rich man pictured the Pharisees and the beggar represented the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" whom Jesus was sent to find. As spiritual shepherds, the Pharisees were totally negligent but proud in their assumption that they had the temple and the priesthood to guarantee their position in the bosom of Abraham. When Christ came however, the roles of the two groups were reversed. Each "died" to their former position.
A drop of water would hardly cool the tongue of one in literal flames.

Firstly, my faith is in the words of Christ and that of his Church, not in the beliefs of the Jews which were various at the time.

By the time Jesus arrived on the scene the Jews had had about 400 years to go off the rails since the last prophet God had sent to correct them. Their track record was appalling yet Jesus said something interesting....

Matthew 23:2-3....“The scribes and the Pharisees now sit on the chair of Moses. Therefore put into practice and continue to do whatever they tell you; but do not imitate what they do, for they teach but do not practice."

Hence Jesus repeated accusation of them being "hypocrites!"

Secondly, as my quote in Luke shows, Christ clearly talks of the condemned rich man as being very conscious in Hades.

This is a parable....not a literal story taken from real life. The torment came from Christ's constant exposure of them as religious frauds.

Most of those who have ever lived have been forgotten to the world, their toils and gains now for naught; their wisdom was unable to save them from the transience of earthly life. But there is nothing here that implies that the dead are unconscious, only that they are dead to the world.

Since the Jews did not believe in any conscious existence after death, your statement does not really apply. And since Jesus was Jewish, he did not teach what the scriptures did not say.

Indeed, there are no gains to be had after death as the time to work for our salvation is here on Earth.

Yes, indeed. But what about those who lived and died with no knowledge of Christ and his kingdom? Does God hold them accountable for their ignorance. Did they all go to hell? Or did the church invent somewhere for them to go too?

There's nothing here contrary to the orthodox teaching of our immortality, it's simply your reading in your pre-decided interpretation. Which mind you, is in clear contradiction with the words Christ, who is none other than fully God himself.

And perhaps that is the root of the problem. Nothing "orthodox" has ever described God's people in any way in any period of time. They have always stood out as different to everyone else. They were always viewed as "unorthodox".

What becomes "orthodox" has a way of masking what was originally thought to be so. It happens in religion, science and medicine. Humans have a way of making up their own view of what "orthodox" really means.

Would you describe Jesus as an "orthodox" Jew? Did he promote the orthodox view? Or did he expose it for the man made garbage that it was?

"Nothing new under the sun" Solomon said.

 

[Kolibri]

And perhaps that is the root of the problem. Nothing "orthodox" has ever described God's people in any way in any period of time. They have always stood out as different to everyone else. They were always viewed as "unorthodox".

So true.

 

[Glaurung]

Many people believe in an immortal soul, but you will not find such a teaching in God's word. There is mention of immortality, but it is granted only to those with "the heavenly calling" (Heb 3:1) who will join Jesus as co-rulers in his kingdom. These were not to awaken from the sleep of death until his return. (1 Thess 4:13-17) These were to "rise first", so no one was to be resurrected before they were. (Rev 20:6) The dead are not alive somewhere.

No, you'll never find it in the teachings of your chosen 19th century Protestant offshoot. All you have is the assertions of a sect that is outright heretical by any orthodox standards.

This may be what you have been taught, but it finds no support in the Bible.
The word "soul" (Heb, nephesh, Greek, psyche) is never used of a disembodied spirit. It is often translated "creature" because that is exactly what it means. A soul is a living breathing creature, not a departed spirit.
You have accepted a pagan falsehood as Biblical truth.

First of all, the Bible's authority is not independent of the context of Holy Tradition, and the idea that the tradition founded by the Apostles themselves panders pagan falsehood is nothing but the assertion of schismatic heretics.

Again...I have heard of this before. Can you provide Biblical back-up for this idea? Where does it say that life continues after death?

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. After being made alive he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits - 1 Peter 18-20

Christ was made alive in spirit, and proclaimed to others who were imprisoned. You cannot imprison what isn't alive, and who is alive here but spirits?

Remember that in the garden, the penalty for disobedience was death. There was no "natural" cause of death mentioned for the simple reason, there wasn't any. Right there in the garden was the means of everlasting life...in the flesh. (The tree of life) When Adam took the forbidden fruit and ate it, that 'means' was taken away and barred for the rest of man's sinful life on earth. (Gen 3:22-24) If God barred the way to the everlasting life he purposed, why give man everlasting life in another form or realm?

When Adam had lost God's grace, our initial state of innocence was broken and we became subject to original sin and mortality.That is all it says. Now even though our bodies have become mortal, the rational aspect of our wills is created in the image of God and is thus immortal because God is immortal. In the second coming of Christ, we will be resurrected bodily and be restored to the pre-fall condition of physical immortality. (And without the limitations of the physical as we know it).

The characters in this story represent two groups of people. The rich man pictured the Pharisees and the beggar represented the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" whom Jesus was sent to find. As spiritual shepherds, the Pharisees were totally negligent but proud in their assumption that they had the temple and the priesthood to guarantee their position in the bosom of Abraham. When Christ came however, the roles of the two groups were reversed. Each "died" to their former position.

Indeed, the parable isn't a literal event, but Christ would not use a parable that depicts literal sufferings in Hell if there weren't any sufferings to be warned about.

Since the Jews did not believe in any conscious existence after death, your statement does not really apply. And since Jesus was Jewish, he did not teach what the scriptures did not say.

The Jews also reject Christ as the incarnation of the word of God, and Jesus is the final revelation of God's interaction with the Jews. He is the covenant which they have rejected. But God is not so much Jewish as much as Christ incarnated on Earth among the people whom God's initial revelations in the OT had first been revealed. Christ became a Jew as it was necessary to bring about the fulfilment of the new covenant for all. Jesus does not contradict the OT so much as he is the fulfilment of it. And Christ and his Church assures us that the soul is immortal. Are you now to reject Christ because the Jews do? It's a silly argument.

Yes, indeed. But what about those who lived and died with no knowledge of Christ and his kingdom? Does God hold them accountable for their ignorance. Did they all go to hell? Or did the church invent somewhere for them to go too?

Everyone will get the opportunity to accept Christ even if it is at the point of death. There is no salvation outside the Church, but the visible Church does not know everyone who is within her.

Now let me ask you, does God simply kill without mercy those who have no knowledge of the teachings of your sect? Is God a murder?

And perhaps that is the root of the problem. Nothing "orthodox" has ever described God's people in any way in any period of time. They have always stood out as different to everyone else. They were always viewed as "unorthodox".

Like it or not, Christ left a Church with definitive teachings, and to consciously reject this Church either though apostasy or heresy is to damn yourself. Holy Tradition is the authoritative teaching of Christ handed down by the Apostles throughout the centuries. Christ promised the Church that she would never fall into error (although those with it certainty may) and the teachings of your sect are in stark contradiction to that which is handed down by the apostolic tradition.

I believe further interaction here is useless , I will not abandon the authority of the Church in favour of your heresies.

 

[Simplelogic]

Many people believe in an immortal soul, but you will not find such a teaching in God's word. There is mention of immortality, but it is granted only to those with "the heavenly calling" (Heb 3:1) who will join Jesus as co-rulers in his kingdom. These were not to awaken from the sleep of death until his return. (1 Thess 4:13-17) These were to "rise first", so no one was to be resurrected before they were. (Rev 20:6) The dead are not alive somewhere.

The Jews were instructed by God's prophets who wrote under inspiration and none of the writers of the OT mentioned anything about an immortal soul. This teaching was adopted (along with other unscriptural notions) by the nation when it became apostate and the Christians did the same in apostatising after Jesus and his apostles died. It was foretold. (1 Tim 4:1-3)

Jesus never taught about any conscious part of man that survives death.

If all are simply in Sheol, (the grave) then all are "asleep" and cannot experience anything. Like Lazarus they are awakened from the sleep of death. (John 11:11-14)


This may be what you have been taught, but it finds no support in the Bible.
The word "soul" (Heb, nephesh, Greek, psyche) is never used of a disembodied spirit. It is often translated "creature" because that is exactly what it means. A soul is a living breathing creature, not a departed spirit.
You have accepted a pagan falsehood as Biblical truth.

When God sentenced Adam to death, he really meant what he said. The living creature that was Adam, ceased to breathe and died. He returned to the dust, just as God had said. No hint of an afterlife is mentioned. We have no superiority over the animals in death. (Eccl 3:19, 20) We have the same "spirit" (breath) and die the same death as they do.

The Jews never believed in an afterlife, except by resurrection back to life on earth.


Again...I have heard of this before. Can you provide Biblical back-up for this idea? Where does it say that life continues after death?

Remember that in the garden, the penalty for disobedience was death. There was no "natural" cause of death mentioned for the simple reason, there wasn't any. Right there in the garden was the means of everlasting life...in the flesh. (The tree of life) When Adam took the forbidden fruit and ate it, that 'means' was taken away and barred for the rest of man's sinful life on earth. (Gen 3:22-24) If God barred the way to the everlasting life he purposed, why give man everlasting life in another form or realm?

Where does it say that souls are reunited with their bodies at Christ's second coming? Chapter and verse please.


Man was not created to be immortal. If he was, he could not have died, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden would have been meaningless. The death penalty would have been a lie.

No creation was immortal...not the angels or even the son of God. Anything that can die cannot be immortal. It is an indestructible life.
Many confuse everlasting life with immortality...they are not the same.

Immortality is granted as a reward for faithful adherence to God's commands on the part of the chosen ones. It isn't granted to everyone.



Your examples are not saying what you think they are saying.

2 Peter 2:9....."then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trial, but to keep the unrighteous under guard awaiting punishment on the day of judgment" (Mounce Interlinear)

The same Interlinear renders Matthew 25:46...."And these will depart to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

So in Matt 25:46, Jesus is saying to the "goats" that they will be eternally punished. That punishment does not have to be conscious. Eternal death is also a punishment. This is what the Jews understood "Gehenna" (often mistranslated as hell) to mean. Anything thrown into the fires of Gehenna (the city's gargage dump) was completely destroyed, never to be seen again. It meant not having a burial tomb in order to be remembered by God in the resurrection. The Jews that were listening to Jesus knew exactly what he meant. The apostate church in the following centuries turned God into a fiendish torturer. The whole idea is completely foreign to him. (Jer 7:30, 31; 32:35)



A closer reading of that parable will disclose that it is not a literal scenario.
The characters in this story represent two groups of people. The rich man pictured the Pharisees and the beggar represented the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" whom Jesus was sent to find. As spiritual shepherds, the Pharisees were totally negligent but proud in their assumption that they had the temple and the priesthood to guarantee their position in the bosom of Abraham. When Christ came however, the roles of the two groups were reversed. Each "died" to their former position.
A drop of water would hardly cool the tongue of one in literal flames.



By the time Jesus arrived on the scene the Jews had had about 400 years to go off the rails since the last prophet God had sent to correct them. Their track record was appalling yet Jesus said something interesting....

Matthew 23:2-3....“The scribes and the Pharisees now sit on the chair of Moses. Therefore put into practice and continue to do whatever they tell you; but do not imitate what they do, for they teach but do not practice."

Hence Jesus repeated accusation of them being "hypocrites!"



This is a parable....not a literal story taken from real life. The torment came from Christ's constant exposure of them as religious frauds.



Since the Jews did not believe in any conscious existence after death, your statement does not really apply. And since Jesus was Jewish, he did not teach what the scriptures did not say.



Yes, indeed. But what about those who lived and died with no knowledge of Christ and his kingdom? Does God hold them accountable for their ignorance. Did they all go to hell? Or did the church invent somewhere for them to go too?



And perhaps that is the root of the problem. Nothing "orthodox" has ever described God's people in any way in any period of time. They have always stood out as different to everyone else. They were always viewed as "unorthodox".

What becomes "orthodox" has a way of masking what was originally thought to be so. It happens in religion, science and medicine. Humans have a way of making up their own view of what "orthodox" really means.

Would you describe Jesus as an "orthodox" Jew? Did he promote the orthodox view? Or did he expose it for the man made garbage that it was?

"Nothing new under the sun" Solomon said.

Wonderful rebuttal. Couldn't have put it better myself.

 

[Kolibri]

First of all, the Bible's authority is not independent of the context of Holy Tradition, and the idea that the tradition founded by the Apostles themselves panders pagan falsehood is nothing but the assertion of schismatic heretics.

The apostles did not pander falsehood. They were the restraint. When they were no longer here, truth was lost in what you would call "Holy Tradition."
"Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction....And now you know what is acting as a restraint, so that he will be revealed in his own due time. True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who is right now acting as a restraint is out of the way. Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence." - 2 Thessalonians 2:3,6-8

"I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves." - Acts 20:29,30

"Be on the watch for the false prophets who come to you in sheep's covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves." - Matthew 7:15

 

[Glaurung]

Be on the watch for the false prophets who come to you in sheep's covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves

Indeed.

 

[JayJayDee]

No, you'll never find it in the teachings of your chosen 19th century Protestant offshoot. All you have is the assertions of a sect that is outright heretical by any orthodox standards.

Funny, I never was one to run with the mob.

And I don't put much store in "orthodoxy" as if it has to be the real deal just because the majority follow it.
Jesus was not in the majority...in fact he proved that the majority had it all wrong. (Matt 7:13, 14)
I like to check things out for myself.

JW's are not a Protestant offshoot...in fact we are not an offshoot of anyone. We unlearned all Christendom's nonsense and went back to the scriptures and started from scratch. If something was not in the Bible, we got rid of it. Anything from outside of scripture is from men. Our faith is simple, uncluttered by teaching borrowed from paganism.

First of all, the Bible's authority is not independent of the context of Holy Tradition, and the idea that the tradition founded by the Apostles themselves panders pagan falsehood is nothing but the assertion of schismatic heretics.

Heretics! That word always makes me smile .....the biggest heretics were the ones calling the heretics, heretics! The doctrines of the Catholic Church go against almost every scriptural teaching there is. Everything the Bible says not to do, they do it.

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. After being made alive he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits - 1 Peter 18-20

Christ was made alive in spirit, and proclaimed to others who were imprisoned. You cannot imprison what isn't alive, and who is alive here but spirits?

Did you never read that scripture in context? And why did you leave out verse 20?

"18 Why, even Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous [person] for unrighteous ones, that he might lead you to God, he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit. 19 In this state also he went his way and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water."

The "spirits in prison" were the demon angels sentenced to "Tartarus" for their little fling on earth with human women in Noah's day. (2 Pet 2:4, 5) These are not the spirits of dead people...there are no spirits of dead people.

When Adam had lost God's grace, our initial state of innocence was broken and we became subject to original sin and mortality.

And where will I find that in the Bible?

Adam was already mortal...he was created that way....how else could God tell him that he would die if he ate the forbidden fruit?

What is your definition of "original sin"?

Now even though our bodies have become mortal, the rational aspect of our wills is created in the image of God and is thus immortal because God is immortal. In the second coming of Christ, we will be resurrected bodily and be restored to the pre-fall condition of physical immortality. (And without the limitations of the physical as we know it).

Sorry, but humans cannot be immortal.
Because they are made of flesh they need external things to stay alive. Adam and his wife had all the sustenance they needed in the garden. Fruit of every description were theirs for the taking. They had to have a fresh water supply too. And they had to have clean air to breathe. Without any one of those things that sustain life...they would have died...hence they were not immortal. Only spirit beings can be granted immortality.

Living forever and being immortal are two completely different things.

Indeed, the parable isn't a literal event, but Christ would not use a parable that depicts literal sufferings in Hell if there weren't any sufferings to be warned about.

The suffering was not literal. Death in this parable was symbolic...it simply meant a role reversal. Those who had the "bosom position of Abraham" lost it because of their religious pride and extreme arrogance. The beggar gained what the Pharisees lost. "Hell" is nothing more than the common grave. No one is conscious, so no one can suffer. The torment suffered by the Pharisees was in Jesus' preaching...exposing them as liars and fruads.

Everlasting life is promised only to the righteous...so why would God keep the wicked alive, only to torture them? Why would he?

"For the sons of Judah have done what is bad in my eyes,’ is the utterance of Jehovah. ‘They have set their disgusting things in the house upon which my name has been called, in order to defile it. 31 And they have built the high places of To′pheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hin′nom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart.’" (Jer 7:30, 31)

If God castigated the Israelites for burning their own children in the fire...and he said such a thing would not enter his mind, why on earth would he do it to his own? Seriously.

The Jews also reject Christ as the incarnation of the word of God, and Jesus is the final revelation of God's interaction with the Jews. .......Christ became a Jew as it was necessary to bring about the fulfillment of the new covenant for all.

Yes. Faithful to his promise to Abraham, Jesus as the 'promised seed' was to come from his family line.
Israel was the vehicle for the Messiah to be born on earth. The Jews were God's chosen nation and as such were responsible for teaching his people God's laws. Jesus' disciples were warned not to copy their example, but to listen when they taught from God's word. (Matt 23:2, 3)

And Christ and his Church assures us that the soul is immortal. Are you now to reject Christ because the Jews do? It's a silly argument.

There is no doctrine of an immortal soul. You are mistaken.
The immortality that is granted to Christ's "joint-heirs" was not to be granted before returned to gather them with the call of an archangel's voice.(1 Thess 4:13-18) Read the scripture. No one went to heaven...everyone went to hell, which is nothing more sinister than the common grave.

Everyone will get the opportunity to accept Christ even if it is at the point of death. There is no salvation outside the Church, but the visible Church does not know everyone who is within her.

There is no salvation outside the blood of Jesus Christ.
"Many" are going to plead with Jesus on judgment day and even tell him what good Christians they have been, but he stuns them with complete rejection! Why? Because they were "good Christians" only in their own estimations. He says he NEVER knew them. "NEVER" means NOT EVER....not from day one has he recognized them as his own. (Matt 7:21-23)

Now let me ask you, does God simply kill without mercy those who have no knowledge of the teachings of your sect? Is God a murder?

Is God a murderer? NO! But he is an executioner of those who break his laws. He has told us very plainly how to worship him in truth, but Christendom is not listening...like the Pharisees, she is too proud to admit her errors and correct them. She will pay for that.

Since Jesus is currently directing the greatest preaching work the world has ever seen..."in all the inhabited earth" he is having "the good news of the kingdom" declared by those he has sent as his personal messengers. (Matt 24:14; 28:19, 20) This is the only "witness" that people will get. Jesus likened it to the days of Noah.....Noah tried to tell the people of his day that God was about to bring down an entire world of wicked humanity, but they wouldn't listen. (Matt 24:36-39) They only believed when the waters started raining down...too late.

Like it or not, Christ left a Church with definitive teachings, and to consciously reject this Church either though apostasy or heresy is to damn yourself. Holy Tradition is the authoritative teaching of Christ handed down by the Apostles throughout the centuries. Christ promised the Church that she would never fall into error (although those with it certainty may) and the teachings of your sect are in stark contradiction to that which is handed down by the apostolic tradition.

This I will categorically contest. In his parable of the "wheat and the weeds" Jesus indicated that a counterfeit form of Christianity would be sown by the devil. This is Christendom. Her teachings and conduct are far from Christ-like. Her doctrines can be traced back to Babylon, not to Jesus. (Rev 18:4, 5)
The wheat have always been in existence, but they have been struggling to contend with false teachers, drunk with power, who were eliminating all who dared to oppose them.

The Reformation broke the power of the Roman Church, but it did not unite Christians....instead it broke them up into literally thousands of bickering sects all claiming to teach the truth but still adhering to the same false beliefs as the mother church.

Only at the time of the harvest were the two to be separated. The wheat would not resemble the weeds in any way.

I believe further interaction here is useless , I will not abandon the authority of the Church in favour of your heresies.

If only you could see that the devil has done to Christendom exactly what he did to Judaism.
You have put your faith in the wrong church....it is a counterfeit of mammoth proportions!
The apostasy took place exactly as Jesus and the apostles said it would..why do you believe it didn't happen?

 

[Kolibri]

Immortality - defined

The Greek word a·tha·na·si′a is formed by the negative prefix a followed by a form of the word for “death” (tha′na·tos). Thus, the basic meaning is “deathlessness,” and refers to the quality of life that is enjoyed, its endlessness and indestructibility. (1Co 15:53, 54, ftn; 1Ti 6:16, ftn) The Greek word a·phthar·si′a, meaning “incorruption,” refers to that which cannot decay or be corrupted, that which is imperishable.—Ro 2:7; 1Co 15:42, 50, 53; Eph 6:24; 2Ti 1:10.

The expressions “immortal” or “immortality” do not occur in the Hebrew Scriptures, which do show, however, that Jehovah God, as the Source of all life, is not subject to death, hence, is immortal. (Ps 36:7, 9; 90:1, 2; Hab 1:12) This fact is also emphatically stated by the Christian apostle Paul in referring to God as “the King of eternity, incorruptible.”—1Ti 1:17.
.....
How can Jesus be “the one alone having immortality”?

The first one described in the Bible as rewarded with the gift of immortality is Jesus Christ. That he did not possess immortality before his resurrection by God is seen from the inspired apostle’s words at Romans 6:9: “Christ, now that he has been raised up from the dead, dies no more; death is master over him no more.” (Compare Re 1:17, 18.) For this reason, when describing him as “the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords,” 1 Timothy 6:15, 16 shows that Jesus is distinct from all such other kings and lords in that he is “the one alone having immortality.” The other kings and lords, because of being mortal, die, even as did also the high priests of Israel. The glorified Jesus, God’s appointed High Priest after the order of Melchizedek, however, has “an indestructible life.”—Heb 7:15-17, 23-25.

The word “indestructible” here translates the Greek term a·ka·ta′ly·tos, meaning, literally, “indissoluble.” (Heb 7:16, ftn) The word is a compound of the negative prefix a joined to other words relating to a “loosening down,” as in Jesus’ statement regarding the loosening down or throwing down of the stones of the temple at Jerusalem (Mt 24:1, 2), as well as in Paul’s reference to the loosening down of the earthly “tent” of Christians, that is, the dissolving of their earthly life in human bodies. (2Co 5:1) Thus, the immortal life granted Jesus upon his resurrection is not merely endless but is beyond deterioration or dissolution and is beyond destruction.

Kingdom Heirs Granted Immortality. For the anointed Christians called to reign with Christ in the heavens (1Pe 1:3, 4), the promise is that they share with Christ in the likeness of his resurrection. (Ro 6:5) Thus, as in the case of their Lord and Head, the anointed members of the Christian congregation who die faithful receive a resurrection to immortal spirit life, so that “this which is mortal puts on immortality.” (1Co 15:50-54) As with Jesus, immortality in their case does not mean simply everlasting life, or mere freedom from death. That they, too, are granted “the power of an indestructible life” as fellow heirs with Christ is seen from the apostle Paul’s association of incorruptibility with the immortality they attain. (1Co 15:42-49) Over them “the second death has no authority.”—Re 20:6; see INCORRUPTION.

This grant of immortality to the Kingdom heirs is all the more remarkable, in view of the fact that even God’s angels are shown to be mortal, despite their possessing spirit bodies, not carnal ones. Angelic mortality is evident in view of the judgment of death entered against the spirit son who became God’s Adversary, or Satan, and also against those other angels who followed that satanic course and “did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place.” (Jude 6; Mt 25:41; Re 20:10, 14) So the grant of “indestructible life” (Heb 7:16) or “indissoluble life” to those Christians who gain the privilege of reigning with God’s Son in the heavenly Kingdom marvelously demonstrates God’s confidence in them.
- Immortality — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

 

[viole]

My answer to that (and of course I can never know for sure) is ‘No,’ you would not be better off.

Why? Because God is love, He is not some clever trick master. If He knew (and he surely knows everything well in advance of it playing out on earth) that if you stayed a pagan in some remote corner of the world and would not commit horrible sins against your fellow man but just live out some mundane existence --- if He knew that would cause you to end up in purgatory for a century but then get to heaven - - - - - well then I seriously doubt He would have you condemned to hell because Dr. Livingston showed up one day in the jungle with a Bible and you grasped the meaning, accepted the Lord and then years later became a murderous villain - - - having so become an enemy of the God you now knew you found yourself in hell. I do not see how God would do that to you or anyone else. I just do not think that would be held against you to that extreme.

The one real command Jesus gave to all His disciples shorty before He left the earth was to go to all corners of the world and preach the gospel and baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I have to believe the early Christians taking on that mission has done far more good to far more souls for eternity’s sake than had they done nothing and just hope for God’s mercy for the ignorant.

It is surely something we cannot allow to cause us so much worry that we choose to do nothing. It just may be there are very few souls who end up in hell? Maybe most of our efforts are leant towards alleviating large amounts of suffering in purgatory for most souls?

I am sorry, but that is a bit confusing. I never talked of becoming a criminal or anything like that.

Suppose that I am exactly the same moral person, from the cradle to the grave. I do whatever you might consider good and admirable towards other people, apart from buying the supernatural tales of the Gospel.

In one case I heard about the Gospel, liked Jesus but rejected its supernatural claims as a childish fantasy, and in the other I never heard of it.

Is there a difference for what concerns my final destiny in the afterdeath?

Ciao

- viole