Desert Snake
Veteran Member
I'll simplify the equation.
This is my position.
Jesus==YHVH
This is my position.
Jesus==YHVH
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Do you consider Jews to worship the same God?
- Thread starter Skywalker
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JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
Can you show us one scripture where either Jesus or his Father said he was Yahweh?
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
At least three different arguments can be presented via Scripture. That is why we have to take into consideration, the logistics of the positions taken. Since we know that Jesus pre-existed His 'man incarnation', we can assume that He was Divine from birth, ie did not attain divinity at His baptism by John. Since G-d manifested as Jesus, we can assume that He is G-d, in other words, JHVH. Otherwise, what deity is He? If He is not G-d, then the trinity concept is incorrect, if He is G-d, yet not this ''being'', the ''father'', then G-d is different from the father. This makes no sense. Is the 'father' supposed to be different from JHVH? If so, then it is a different deity, hence not monotheism; that's great, but the Trinitarians never declared themselves polytheistic, afaik. So, we are logically led to the conclusion, that this ''father'' aspect, is metaphorical, it is the other manifestation of Jesus/JHVH, essentially. However, only in the context of the man Jesus! The Deific Jesus, being JHVH, is literally, the 'father'.
We can take into consideration, that Jesus could be an angel; great. If He is an angel, then, also, He would not attain divinity at His baptism by John. If He did attain divinity at His baptism by John, then His angelic nature would be made moot, and He becomes a different character. So, a demi-god? If He is a demi-god, then we have more than one deity in the Godhead, the same problem as those who would designate the 'father', as some other being, because then, again, it is not monotheistic. This is I presume, recognizable by non-Xians, yet for some reason, many Xians cannot notice this glaring inconsistency.
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
And therein lies the problem....that you have to argue for it at all. If there was a direct teaching in the Bible to the effect that Jesus is the incarnation of Yahweh, then no argument would be necessary. There is no statement from either God or his Christ to that effect. The trinity is not a concept from scripture. Even the RCC admits that.
Jesus was sent from heaven to fulfill a role. Being "sent" from heaven did not make him God. Being "sent" implies that someone "sent" him. In prayer Jesus calls his Father "the only true God" and identifies himself as "the one whom (Yahweh) sent forth". (John 17:3) So the Father sent his son into the world to become Messiah for the human race who accepted him as such.
The idea that God is actually a multiple personality is bizarre. The Jews never saw their God as anything but a single entity. (Deut 6:4)
Being "divine" doesn't make Jesus into God Almighty. Paul said Jesus existed in God's "form". (Phil 2:6) What is God's form? "God is a spirit" so all that means is that the pre-human Jesus was a spirit like his Father. Angels are spirits too, but they are not God either.
Your statement here betrays a mindset. It is not one formulated from scripture however. God did not manifest as Jesus at all, so there is no reason to assume that he and the Father are one being. They are one in unity and purpose, but they are separate entities.
Do you see what beginning an argument on a wrong premise will do? Everything you add to this argument will be confusing. If Yahweh and his son are separate entities, as Jesus always maintained, then there is no confusion.
The son of God has been so from his creation. He is the first and only direct creative act by his Father. (Rev 3:14)
All other creation came through the agency of the son. (Col 1:15, 16; John 1:2, 3)
No! There is just one Yahweh. He is not three....he is one as the Bible clearly states.
Again, you demonstrate the conundrum when you begin with a false premise.
The divine being who became the man Jesus, was a mortal, just like us. The only difference is that he was without inherited sin. That made him the equivalent of Adam, which was necessary because Jesus was sent to pay the penalty for Adam's sin. What Adam lost, (not only for himself, but also for all his offspring,) was perfect sinless life. An atonement sacrifice had to be an equivalent under God's law. Jesus was called "the last Adam" because he cancelled Adam's debt to all his children. That is why his death is called a "ransom". We all know that a ransom is the price paid to secure the release of a captive. We are all prisoners of Adam's sin. Jesus paid for our release.
Jesus was never just an angel. There is good reason to believe that he is the archangel Michael. The Chief commander of all the angelic forces. As the "only begotten son" of God, i.e. the only creation be brought into existence directly by the hand of God; that makes him so much more than just an angel. He is the most powerful spirit being in existence next to his Creator. There is no one who has a closer relationship with the Father than he does. No one knows how long Father and son existed together before creation began through the agency of the son.....using the power of God's holy spirit. (Prov 8:22, 30, 31)
Jesus did not get "divinity" at his baptism. He was anointed as "the Christ" at his baptism. Then and only then was he given power by means of the holy spirit. He is not recorded as having any miraculous powers before that time. He was a mortal human, given supernatural abilities through holy spirit. He in turn could then pass on the gifts of the holy spirit to other mortals...even though they were sinful.
The "glaring inconsistency" is the result of beginning with a false premise. It is an indoctrination forced on the people in the early centuries by the RCC and continued even in Protestantism up until the present. But the fact is, I t was never true to begin with.
There is one God who is identified in the Hebrew Scriptures as "YHWH" (Yahweh, Jehovah) (Psalm 83:18 KJV)
He had a unique son, who was his most trusted servant, and sent him into the world as a response to Adam's sin.
There is no trinity.....therefore there is no "God the Son" and there is no "God the Holy Spirit" ever mentioned in the Bible. The church invented those titles to support their blasphemy.
To place any other personage in the same place as the Father is the greatest travesty ever perpetrated in the name of Christianity. It breaks the first commandment....."You must have no other Gods but me".
Jesus never said he was God Almighty...not once! And God said he would not share his godship with any other creature....not even his own precious and glorious son.
The reason that we have this situation is also explained in the Bible. Jesus foretold that the devil would sow "weeds" in the world...a fake form of Christianity that was designed by the devil to lead people away from the truth about God. He has been very successful...which is why Jesus could say what he did in Matt 7:13, 14, 21-23.
“Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who go through it. How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life, and few find it.
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of My Father in heaven. On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’ Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’" (NASB)
Back to the OP, I believe the potential exist that all three religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) worship the same God. The are simply different interpretations of the same concepts. However an interesting theory is that the gnostics got it right and the God of this world (and theoretically the God of all three religions) is a lesser God who is on an ego trip. See "On the Origins of the World" for more details. Its a gnostic text.
Xenosaga Dragonzord
Member
judaism arab,sabian arab,christian arab & muslim arab..........call God name with Allah SWT
Col 1:15 & Col 1:19 (two in just one chapter of one book)
If he looks EXACTLY like God, then he probably IS God.
If all of God (the fullness) is in him, then he probably IS God.
Jesus is God ... Scriptural support (and there is lot's more if you actually look for it rather than reinterpreting entire paragraphs and chapters to say something else).
Heck, even the "Jesus is not God" crowd admit that the 'first born of all creation' and the 'only begotten son' is like 99% God ... certainly more God-like than anything else in creation by no small margin. Embrace that last 1% and just accept that God became a man to 'Git er done'. That's why "When you have seen me (Jesus), you have seen the Father."
Oh, well, if YOU say it's nonsense, then it must really be nonsense. [NOT.]
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
Let's have a look at this scripture in context....
Colossians 1:15-20..."He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross." (ESV)
What do you see there? Being the image of his Father doesn't make him the Father. An image is a reflection. He is a reflection of his God. "He is the beginning".......as an eternal being, God had no beginning.
He is also "firstborn from the dead"....meaning what? He was not the first person to be resurrected, was he? But he was the first one raised "in the spirit".....returning to the "form" that he had before coming to the earth as a human. Who raised Jesus from the dead? God did. Jesus did not raise himself. He didn't pray to himself either.
What is the "fullness of God"...that was to dwell in the Christ? The outworking of God's purpose in Jesus' role as Messiah, was made complete in Jesus.
There is no scriptural support.
Revelation 3:12....."The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name."
Can you tell me how it is that Jesus calls his Father "my God" four times in this one verse after his return to heaven?
Does God have a God?
Can God have a new name, when he already told Moses that his name is Yahweh forever?
Exodus 3:15...."God also said to Moses, “Say this to the Israelites: Yahweh, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever; this is how I am to be remembered in every generation." (Holman)
He goes on to say in Rev 3:14.....
“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation." (ESV)
The faithful and true witness is the son of God.....the "beginning of God's creation".
Weight of numbers is not a good gauge of what is correct. As Jesus said....“Go in through the narrow gate, because broad is the gate and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are finding it." (Matt 7:13, 14)
Jesus was the image of his Father, which is why he could say that "he who has seen me has seen the Father also"...like Father, like son.
So much effort required to explain the truth.
Turning back to the quote from Col 1:15-20, you realize that if you are correct, then God is not the head of the Church.
You are asking me to give my allegiance to the head, a created being who became a man, FOR whom we were created.
If I am correct, then 'Image of God', 'Fullness of God' and 'Head of the Church' all find a simple unity in the Deity of Christ. Comprehending the nature of God is hard, understanding what he said is not.
You place so much effort into making it simple to comprehend the nature of God, and so hard to understand what he said. I cannot embrace a simple God with a complex message over a complex God with a simple message.
You are, of course, under no obligation to embrace what I believe.
I would only ask for the courtesy of not telling me that what I read has "no scriptural support" or that it is "nonsense".
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
So much effort required to explain the truth.
It was no effort at all. It was simply a matter of consulting the scriptures and seeing what they really say. What the churches teach is not what the Bible teaches.
Yes, that is correct. Yahweh appointed Jesus as "head of the church". He has given his son all authority in heaven and on earth.....(Matt 28:19) Does that disqualify him somehow?
I am not asking you to do anything. I am merely telling you what the scriptures say. You are free to ignore them.
And yet you fail to see and acknowledge what he said....you accept what Christendom has erroneously taught for centuries. Jesus is not God and never was. This is a lie. Ask yourself if Jesus ever said he was God Almighty? Can you cite me one scripture where Jesus claimed to be God? We are never told to pray TO Jesus...we are told to pray to the Father "in Jesus' name". Nor are we told to worship either Jesus or the holy spirit, but we are told to worship the Father "alone". (Luke 4:8)
You are free to believe whatever you wish.....I am telling you what the Bible teaches. Yahweh is the God and Father of Jesus Christ, both before and after he finished his role as Messiah. The scriptures have been provided so that you can see this for yourself. Deny them if you wish, but you cannot claim that no one told you that this teaching is complete blasphemy.
I have never said any of your post was nonsense....I am only telling you what the Bible teaches. There is "NO SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT" for the trinity....there never was.
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Yes, I feel as though I follow the same G-d as Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Since the Twelve apostles were Jewish, I think they believed it to be the same G-d, as well.
How are the two religions similar? Zoroastrains are polytheists. Mithra, Anahita, Verethragna, and are called "yazatas", meaning "worthy of worship".
FollowerOfTheLord
Member
Whether they like it or not they're serving Jesus if they're serving God, you can't get to the Father but through the Son.