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Do you do Qur'anic commands?

leibowde84

Veteran Member
My friend, your saying is a slander against the Shiites. Who said you that ' Sunni trust Bukhari to be Sahih and they have well established Ilm-ul-Hadith to back their claims s still Shia dismissed that and deem it to be a heresy work . The opposite is true when Shia Ahadith are the concern for the Sunni '.
This is not true. Our Clerics use true hadiths which are in our brother Sunni books.
Please read this saying from Imam Ali (the first Imam of Shia's Imams) which is in Nahjul Balagha, sayings, 80:
Knowledge and wisdom are really the privilege of a faithful Muslim. If you have lost them, get them back even though you may have to get them from the apostates.
How was that slander? He merely described a historical happening. Now, maybe he is incorrect or ignorant of what actually took place, but there was no "slander" involved whatsoever. We have to be able to discuss these topics, even though some inferences might contradict your own. It could only possibly be considered "slander" if 1. what he said was known to be false (has been falsified), and 2. that he knew it to be false when he claimed it. I don't think either of these things are certain at this point.
 

mojtaba

Active Member
Okay, I accept your proposition as "true" for a moment, then tell me, what if these hadiths had not reached to us today ? We could not be Muslims. Or maybe some of these hadiths were lost and maybe the Muhammad granpa said some important things and we are not aware of it today ? So if Islam needs to hadiths, then probably we could not be Muslims today. As a believer you believe in that Allah saves Qur'an but are there such a guarantee by him that he will also save Hadiths ?

I'm not going into so much details, I can suggest many similar things but I don't want you to be confused so much. Just think about what I said above.
Your questions are very good.
Q: what if these hadiths had not reached to us today? We could not be Muslims. Or maybe some of these hadiths were lost and maybe the Muhammad granpa said some important things and we are not aware of it today ? So if Islam needs to hadiths, then probably we could not be Muslims today.
A: So we would just do Qur'anic commands. But today we have many true hadiths and we must consider them.(65:7 "God does not burden any human being with more than He has given him" ).

Q: As a believer you believe in that Allah saves Qur'an but are there such a guarantee by him that he will also save Hadiths?
A: For solving this problem, we do these hadiths:

It is narrated from Imam Baqir(Fifth Imam of the Shia): "All things are referred to Al-kitab( Holy Qur'an ) and Sunnah( Hadiths of Prophet Mohammad and his 12 Successors/Imams ) and each Hadiths that is not agree with the Book of Allah(Qur'an) is nonsense." wasael al shia, Volume 27, page 111.

 

mojtaba

Active Member
Music is one of the wonderful creations of Almighty GOD ever . A nation hating music is a nation having hearts of stones . Unfortunately there are many Ahadith exist among Sunni and Shia Muslim which strongly prohibited Music .
Shia Hadith :
"A person who possesses a sitar, on the day of Qiyamat will be raised with a black face. His hands will be holding a sitar of fire. Seventy thousand angels with maces of fire will be hitting him on the face and the head. The singer will arise from his grave, blind, deaf and dumb. The adulterer will be similarly raised. The player of flute will also be made to rise in this way as will be the drum player."
(Mustadrakul Wasael)
Another slander.
These are two Fatwas of Ayatollah Seyyed Ali Khamenei about music.
Q: What are lahwī music and singing?
A: Any music or singing which due to its characteristics keeps human beings away from Allah, the sublime, and away from moral merits and spiritual matters and drives them towards sinful acts and carelessness is lahwī and ḥarām(forbidden). http://www.leader.ir/tree/print.php?catid=38&nodeid=n5941

Q: Are sad music and songs ḥarām?
A: If lahwī Music or ghinā’ is involved, they are ḥarām. Otherwise, it is permissible.http://www.leader.ir/tree/print.php?catid=38&nodeid=n5942

In shia fiqh( jurisprudence), just lahwī Music or ghinā’ are haram, not all music.
 

mojtaba

Active Member
Theoretically they say that Qur'an is their primary source of religion while it is an eye-wash t . Their 90% affairs are determined by their Hadith , rest if not less may have an influence of Qur'an . Just listing a few for your perusal :

01. Killing Apostates - Not in Qur'an but in Hadith .
02. Stoning the adulterers - - Not in Qur'an but in Hadith .
03. Women veiled top to bottom-- Not in Qur'an but in Hadith .
04. Women is half of men - Not in Qur'an but in Hadith .
05. Women can't work alone outside - Not in Qur'an but in Hadith .
06. Child marriage- Not in Qur'an but in Hadith .
07. 5 prayers a day - Not in Qur'an but in Hadith .
08.Music is forbidden - Not in Qur'an but in Hadith .
09.Pictures and images are forbidden- Not in Qur'an but in Hadith .
10.Force fight/offensive battle to spread Islam- Not in Qur'an but in Hadith .

List can go a long way , but let me stop here .
All of these are slanders to shia fiqh. They need explanation and I will answer all of them soon, God willing.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
All of these are slanders to shia fiqh. They need explanation and I will answer all of them soon, God willing.
What do you mean by "slander?" Are you using the english/legal definition of the word? Because, the term slander is only applicable when a person's reputation is harmed. I am having trouble seeing how saying something false about a religious tradition would qualify whatsoever. Are you just trying to say that these are false statements, or do you think there is ill-intent behind them?

Slander - "the action or crime of making a false spoken statement damaging to a person's reputation."
 

Union

Well-Known Member
Salam Mojtaba and you are most welcome .

I have two replies for your answer.
1. You have said: " All cited verses are saying 'and follow the messenger' ( Wa Atiyyu Rasulu..) . Not a single time it says ' Follow Muhammad ' ".
Also you have said: " Messenger = Who deliver the message => Obey the messenger = Obey the message he delivered ".

But you have said these from your imagination, not from Holy Qur'an. Qur'an says another thing:
Al-fath(48), 90 : " Mohammad is God’s messenger " => messenger = Mohammad => follow the messenger = follow Mohammad.

Before answering you from the Qur’an itself , let me try to give you an analogy . If Tom is our teacher and we have two statements like below :

‘Tom is the teacher ‘ and ‘Follow your teacher ’ , then where does the emphasis go ? On ‘Tom’ or on ‘Teacher’ ? Obviously on teacher . We are not told to follow ‘person’ Tom but the ‘teacher' Tom for what he is teaching .

Now let us turn into the Qur’an ; the verse number you mentioned is wrong , it is found in 48:29 and not in 48:90 . Whatsoever , Almighty ALLAH Himself classified Muhammad into two dimensions . Please read the following verse attentively :


4:50] قلانضللتفانمااضلعلىنفسيواناهتديتفبمايوحياليربيانهسميعقريب

[034:050]Say: "If I am astray,I only stray to the loss of my own soul:but if I receive guidance, it is because of the Wahi of my Lord to me: it is He Who hears all things, and is (ever) near."

The above verse depicts Muhammad as :

Muhammad + Wahi (Qur’an) = A perfect Muhammad ………………… (1)
Muhammad – Wahi (Qur’an) = An erroneous Muhammad …………….(2)

(1) can also be expressed as : Muhammad + Message (Qur’an) = Messenger Muhammad ………… (3)
(2) can also be expressed as : Muhammad – Message (Qur’an) =Ordinary human Muhammad ……(4)

In verse 34:50 Muhammad of (1)+(3) isاهتديت(guided) because ofيوحياليربي(Wahi from his Lord)

In verse 34:50 Muhammad of (2)+(3) isاضل(erred) because ofنفسي(His own self)

Example from Qur'an

[066:001] O Prophet! Why holdest thou to be forbidden that which God has made lawful to thee? Thou seekest to please thy consorts. But God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

[066:002] God has already ordained for you, (O men), the dissolution of your oaths (in some cases): and God is your Protector, and He is Full of Knowledge and Wisdom.

The above noble verse is an example where Prophet made a gross mistake by exchanging Halal to haram just to please his wives . Almighty ALLAH (swt) found it objectionable and rectified as well as warned him . The nature of this Muhammad was who اضل(erred) because ofنفسي(His own self) [Ref.34:50 above]

In this reply, I assumed that your reply is correct(while it is not):
If you say that, Obey the messenger = Obey the message he delivered, what you say about this verse?
4: 59 "O You who believe! obey Allah and obey the apostle and owners of authority from amongst you(we believe that they are our 12 Imams).

Also read this verse:
20: 90 " Aaron had indeed told them earlier: "O my people, you are being only misled with this. Surely your Lord is Ar-Rahman. So follow me and obey my command" ".
This saying of Aaron( follow me and obey my command) was before the revelation of the Torah to Moses. So, how you explain this saying?

The verse already exposed the fallible nature of Ulil-Amar and it cancelled their authority from the final equation as it is as always ‘ Obey GOD and the messenger’ :

[4:59] O ye who believe! (Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger)*, and those charged with authority among you**. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger***, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.

* Absolute authority

** Temporary authority

*** Back to absolute authority when Ulul Amar fail .

Ironically it proves that 12 Shia Imams ( as you believed them to Uil Amr in 4.59) are fallible human and they should be disregarded when they are prone to dispute .


What this verse 20:90 has to do with this discussion ? Wasn't Aaron a messenger already that time ? Didn't he get the message already from Almighty ALLAH that HE is One and not to worship anything/anybody apart from HIM , the Exalted ?
 

Union

Well-Known Member
All of these are slanders to shia fiqh. They need explanation and I will answer all of them soon, God willing.

We are talking about Hadith and not Fiqh, , regardless the reference go back to Shia and/or Sunni , I didn't care .
 

Union

Well-Known Member
Another slander.
These are two Fatwas of Ayatollah Seyyed Ali Khamenei about music.
Q: What are lahwī music and singing?
A: Any music or singing which due to its characteristics keeps human beings away from Allah, the sublime, and away from moral merits and spiritual matters and drives them towards sinful acts and carelessness is lahwī and ḥarām(forbidden). http://www.leader.ir/tree/print.php?catid=38&nodeid=n5941

Q: Are sad music and songs ḥarām?
A: If lahwī Music or ghinā’ is involved, they are ḥarām. Otherwise, it is permissible.http://www.leader.ir/tree/print.php?catid=38&nodeid=n5942

In shia fiqh( jurisprudence), just lahwī Music or ghinā’ are haram, not all music.

Again this discussion is about Hadith and not about Fiqh . Nevertheless there are plenty Shia Ahadith prohibited Music :

01.Hazrat Imam Ali ar-Reza (a.s.) remarks,
"A person invites Divine wrath when in his house instruments like flute, drum and chess are played for forty days. If this man dies within these forty days, his death would be of a sinner and a transgressor. His place shall be in Hell. And what a dreadful place it is!"
(Mustanad al Taraqi)

02.The Holy Prophet (s.a.w.s.) has stated,
"A person who possesses a sitar, on the day of Qiyamat will be raised with a black face. His hands will be holding a sitar of fire. Seventy thousand angels with maces of fire will be hitting him on the face and the head. The singer will arise from his grave, blind, deaf and dumb. The adulterer will be similarly raised. The player of flute will also be made to rise in this way as will be the drum player."
(Mustadrakul Wasael)

03.Hazrat Imam Ali ar-Reza (a.s.) has said,
"To listen to a musical instrument is one of the Greater Sins."
(Mustadrakul Wasael)

04.Amirul Momineen Ali (a.s.) says,
"Angels do not even enter a house that has wine, drum, tambourine or a flute. Even the prayers of the inhabitants of this house are unacceptable. They are deprived of barakat."
(Wasaelush Shia)

05.The Holy Prophet (s.a.w.s.) has also said,
"The Almighty Allah has sent me as a mercy to the worlds, to guide the people. And He ordered me to eradicate the playing of flute and other instruments of music, all games of vice, idol (worship) and all practices of the days of ignorance."
(Mustadrakul Wasael, Chapter 79)

06.Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq (a.s.) reports from the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.s.) that he said:
"I prohibit for you dancing and playing flute, drums and tabla."
(Al Kafi)

07.Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq (a.s.) has also said,

“Even learning to sing or play music and teaching it, to sing and play music, to be paid for these things or to be in any way engrossed in these vices is Haraam."
(Tohafful Uqool)

08.The sixth Holy Imam, Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq (a.s.) said,
"Listening to music, songs and useless words cultivate hypocrisy in the heart, in the same way as algae grows in water."
(Al Kafi)

09.Al Kafi mentions a tradition of Imam as-Sadiq (a.s.) that,
"Singing and music is a nest for the bird called hypocrisy."

10.Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq (a.s.) says:

"The house where music is played is not safe from sudden disasters. Supplications at such a place are not answered. Angels do not enter this place."

The Holy Prophet (s.a.w.s.) is quoted to have said:
"Molten lead shall be poured into the ears of one who listens to songs, intently."
(Mustadrakul Wasael)

11.It is also narrated from Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq (a.s.) that he said,
"Whenever a person begins singing, two satans mount on his shoulders and continue to hit their heels upon his chest, till the time he sings the song."

12.Hazrat Imam Ali Ibn Musa ar-Reza (a.s.) said,
"One who avoids songs shall be provided by Allah, a tree, which will produce such a melodious sound as has never been heard by anyone. But the one who has not kept himself aloof from songs will not be able to hear this sound."
(Al Kafi)

13.The following tradition of Allah's Messenger (s.a.w.s.) is recorded in the book Tafseer Majmaul Bayan,
"One who has listened to too many songs will not be able to hear the Ruhaanis on the Day of Qiyamat."

"Who are the Ruhaanis, O Prophet of Allah (s.a.w.s.)?" someone asked.

The Prophet (s.a.w.s.) replied,
"They are the melodious singers of Heaven."

A similar tradition from Hazrat Ali (a.s.) is found in Nahjul Balagha,
"Hazrat Dawood (a.s.) will be the chief of the singers of Paradise."
(Nahjul Balagha)

14."The people will listen to such melodious songs from Hazrat Dawood (a.s.) in Heaven, the like of which have never been heard by anyone. However only those who have refrained from listening to songs in this world would be able to hear them."

The Holy Prophet (s.a.w.s.) said:
"Singing is the stepping stone to fornication."
(Mustadrakul Wasael)

15.Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq (a.s.) says,
"And all those wasteful pastimes are haraam which make one forgetful of Allah; like songs and playing musical instruments."

The traditions concerning the signs of the last stage before the Zuhoor of our Imam (a.s.) mention music:

"And you shall see that music will be so prevalent that no one will dissuade others nor will he find in himself the need to do so. And you shall see that music would be openly played even in the two sanctuaries (the city of Makkah and Madinah)."
(Mustanade Naraqi)
 

Union

Well-Known Member
Because if Prophet Mohammad (p.b.u.h.) is an example for us, we must know his lifestyle.
But because you do not accept any hadith, you can not know all aspects of his life to choose him as an example for yourself.
Without a fail , it is again , 'the messenger' :

[Yusufali 33:21] Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.
 

NoX

Active Member
A: So we would just do Qur'anic commands.

and according to your claim, Quranic commands want you to follow hadiths. Now can you see that your way contradicts with itself witin 2 minutes.


A: For solving this problem, we do these hadiths:
It is narrated from Imam Baqir(Fifth Imam of the Shia): "All things are referred to Al-kitab( Holy Qur'an ) and Sunnah( Hadiths of Prophet Mohammad and his 12 Successors/Imams ) and each Hadiths that is not agree with the Book of Allah(Qur'an) is nonsense." wasael al shia, Volume 27, page 111.

We could find millions of things which does not contradit with Quran, but it does not mean these things are parts of Islam. There was another topic about eating donkey, is it haraam to eat donkey ? Nope there is no such a thing in Quran, but there may be such a hadith which prohibits it. So automatically you restrict yourself and you restrict billions of Muslims and complicating Islam. The same complicates includes wudu, includes prayer, includes zakat, includes many things in Islam that was made more difficult by persons who fabricates hadiths.
 

Union

Well-Known Member
No bashing just the truth.
The truth is you have strayed from the path.
Do you actually believe that we Sunni"s base our teachings on all the Hadiths?
Salam Farouk . Hope you are keeping well . Yes , I do believe so . At the the very first place creating sects among Muslim is against the the teaching of Qur'an , which 90% Sunni adhere and proud to . Frankly speaking ALLAH , the Almighty already warned us not to divide into firka and whomever does so according to Qur'an they are outside the fold of Islam .

[6:159] Those who divide themselves into sects do not belong with you. Their judgment rests with GOD, then He will inform them of everything they had done.


Leaving all small and big things apart , look at your 5 pillars . Do Sunni practice these according to Qur'an ? Not at all . These are practiced and understood through the Hadith .For example the very first pillar , e.g., Shahada - La Ilaha Illalla Muhammadur RasulALLAH - Not in Qur'an. and then 5 times Salah- Not in Qur'an. Others are thoroughly distrored and fashioned the way Hadith described them .
 

faroukfarouk

Active Member
Salam Farouk . Hope you are keeping well . Yes , I do believe so . At the the very first place creating sects among Muslim is against the the teaching of Qur'an , which 90% Sunni adhere and proud to . Frankly speaking ALLAH , the Almighty already warned us not to divide into firka and whomever does so according to Qur'an they are outside the fold of Islam .

[6:159] Those who divide themselves into sects do not belong with you. Their judgment rests with GOD, then He will inform them of everything they had done.


Leaving all small and big things apart , look at your 5 pillars . Do Sunni practice these according to Qur'an ? Not at all . These are practiced and understood through the Hadith .For example the very first pillar , e.g., Shahada - La Ilaha Illalla Muhammadur RasulALLAH - Not in Qur'an. and then 5 times Salah- Not in Qur'an. Others are thoroughly distrored and fashioned the way Hadith described them .

Wa Alaikum Salaam Wu Rahmat Allahi Wu Barakathou
Totally agree with you regarding sects in Islam and we leave Allah to judge them.
Now let me make this discussion more interesting so that it will alleviate your ignorance on our Sunni beliefs.
Let me ask you some simple questions.
Who understood the Noble Quraan more.....You,me or our beloved Prophet Muhammad(SAW)?
Please give me straight answers and don't beat around the bush.
Salaam
faroukfarouk
 

OurCreed

There is no God but Allah
Similar to the Islam Ahmadiyya view.

As Ahmadi Muslims, we hold the view that the Qur'an is the superior book and that no law outside the Qur'an can overcome the law given in the Qur'an. We also believe that every law given by God has been stated in the Qur'an.

We however do not reject all ahadith, we have a strict policy for ahadith. Those ahadith which are in severe contradiction with Qur'an are simply disregarded. Those ahadith which clearly support the Qur'an and do not contradict with it, they are followed.

For example, if there is a hadith about the prophet Muhammad (saw) asking his companions to be kind to their mothers. This hadith supports several Qur'anic commands where it tells believers to obey, respect, and show kindness to parents.

And at the same time, we understand how the Muslim world has gone unto corruption because they have exchanged their truth for falsehood. They have let the Qur'an go and started to follow their own desires. The truth is that the Qur'an is the final law, and only with this final law can everything else be worked with.
 

mojtaba

Active Member
What do you mean by "slander?" Are you using the english/legal definition of the word? Because, the term slander is only applicable when a person's reputation is harmed. I am having trouble seeing how saying something false about a religious tradition would qualify whatsoever. Are you just trying to say that these are false statements, or do you think there is ill-intent behind them?

Slander - "the action or crime of making a false spoken statement damaging to a person's reputation."
Hi dear leibowde84.
I am just trying to say that these are false statements and there is ignorance behind them.
 

mojtaba

Active Member
Similar to the Islam Ahmadiyya view.

As Ahmadi Muslims, we hold the view that the Qur'an is the superior book and that no law outside the Qur'an can overcome the law given in the Qur'an. We also believe that every law given by God has been stated in the Qur'an.

We however do not reject all ahadith, we have a strict policy for ahadith. Those ahadith which are in severe contradiction with Qur'an are simply disregarded. Those ahadith which clearly support the Qur'an and do not contradict with it, they are followed.

For example, if there is a hadith about the prophet Muhammad (saw) asking his companions to be kind to their mothers. This hadith supports several Qur'anic commands where it tells believers to obey, respect, and show kindness to parents.

And at the same time, we understand how the Muslim world has gone unto corruption because they have exchanged their truth for falsehood. They have let the Qur'an go and started to follow their own desires. The truth is that the Qur'an is the final law, and only with this final law can everything else be worked with.
This is exactly same with our view.
I am Shia.
 
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mojtaba

Active Member
Then they could not reasonably be considered "slander." They are merely ignorant and incorrect statements. Right?
Yes. But one who says a statement about a religion, first he must know that religion. If he is Qur'anist, he should do this verse of holy Qur'an:
17:36 "Do not follow that of which you have no knowledge. Verily the ear, the eye, the heart, each will be questioned."
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Yes. But one who says a statement about a religion, first he must know that religion. If he is Qur'anist, he should do this verse of holy Qur'an:
17:36 "Do not follow that of which you have no knowledge. Verily the ear, the eye, the heart, each will be questioned."
Agreed. I just think that slander is an inappropriate word.
 

Union

Well-Known Member
Wa Alaikum Salaam Wu Rahmat Allahi Wu Barakathou
Totally agree with you regarding sects in Islam and we leave Allah to judge them.

Made your confession bold , underlined and font-7 . You admitted already that the creation of Sunni/Shia sect is against the command of ALLAH , the Almighty , hence what Sunni/Shia do practice and teach , how that could be in favor of Islam ? Again read the verse :

[006:159] Surely they who divided their religion into parts and became sects, you have no concern with them; their affair is only with Allah, then He will inform them of what they did.

لست = You are not
منهم = With them
في = In
شئ = Anything


Hadith were created and propagated by these two major sects among Muslim , hence according to Qur'an we are commanded to abandon anything , which includes the Hadith automatically that concern these sects . Simple , but very painful to admit , right ?

Again thank you for your confession and may Almighty ALLAH bring you out from this trap of sectarism into the real Islam by means of the excuse of this confession .


Now let me make this discussion more interesting so that it will alleviate your ignorance on our Sunni beliefs.
Let me ask you some simple questions.
Who understood the Noble Quraan more.....You,me or our beloved Prophet Muhammad(SAW)?
Please give me straight answers and don't beat around the bush.
Salaam
faroukfarouk

Prophet Muhammad .
 
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