Do you have to have the bad to appreciate the good?

[Youtellme]

Hi,
I was chatting to someone the other day and he said we need suffering in this life to appreciate the good times. Or in other words, if God didn't allow suffering and everything was fine, then people would take things for granted and not turn to God.
What do you think?

 

[Atomist]

Hi,
I was chatting to someone the other day and he said we need suffering in this life to appreciate the good times. Or in other words, if God didn't allow suffering and everything was fine, then people would take things for granted and not turn to God.
What do you think?

Lets grant that claim for the sake of argument. It still doesn't explain the asymmetric suffering... I mean after all some people suffer horribly and some people live perfectly bliss lives in comparison. So is what's being argued that those that suffer more are inherently more lucky as they can "turn to god" more than those in bliss?

The problem with apologetic arguments is that it fundamentally misses the main point... that the easiest way for people to turn to god is for god to make it apparent that he exist... because there are people that are trying to find god but can't... and for that reason and that reason alone they're atheist.

 

[Circle_One]

I don't know. I'll let you know when the good finally starts kicking in. I think I've had enough suffering. Should kick in aaaaanny time now.

 

[Youtellme]

Lets grant that claim for the sake of argument. It still doesn't explain the asymmetric suffering... I mean after all some people suffer horribly and some people live perfectly bliss lives in comparison. So is what's being argued that those that suffer more are inherently more lucky as they can "turn to god" more than those in bliss?

The problem with apologetic arguments is that it fundamentally misses the main point... that the easiest way for people to turn to god is for god to make it apparent that he exist... because there are people that are trying to find god but can't... and for that reason and that reason alone they're atheist.

Hi, sorry, I'm being thick now but I don't understand some of the points you are making ie "asymmetric suffering".
Anyhow, on your last point do you mean that atheists don't believe in God becuase they don't see the evidence? Because could it be a case of two people lookig at something and seeing things differently?

For example, two people look at a painting. One will see an amazing work of art where the artist dispalys his skill with the brush and colours, whereas the other will say it's simply paint on a canvas. Both are true. But the ultimate truth is that the painting was made by someone skilled as it points to intelligence and order whilst at the same time being made from just paint and canvas. (Sorry, gone off topic now!)

 

[Atomist]

Hi, sorry, I'm being thick now but I don't understand some of the points you are making ie "asymmetric suffering".
Anyhow, on your last point do you mean that atheists don't believe in God becuase they don't see the evidence? Because could it be a case of two people lookig at something and seeing things differently?

Think Africa and America and so on.

For example, two people look at a painting. One will see an amazing work of art where the artist dispalys his skill with the brush and colours, whereas the other will say it's simply paint on a canvas. Both are true. But the ultimate truth is that the painting was made by someone skilled as it points to intelligence and order whilst at the same time being made from just paint and canvas. (Sorry, gone off topic now!)

No... you don't get it... it has nothing to do with that... it has to do with the fact that there are people genuinely searching for god but god decides to hide from them... ie no sign. That is to say that they search for god and have want a relationship but they find no god to have a relationship with.

 

[BucephalusBB]

Hi,
I was chatting to someone the other day and he said we need suffering in this life to appreciate the good times.

I guess the only one who can really answer this is the one who is in constant bliss.

Or in other words, if God didn't allow suffering and everything was fine, then people would take things for granted and not turn to God.
What do you think?

This however is nonsense. If God is really that powerfull she could have easilly created a world without bad stuff. She would have simply created only good things and appreciation.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Does a child not appreciate it's parents unless they hold back on it's needs?
It is one thing to refrain from spoiling a child. Quite another to deliberately cause discomfort so they may appreciate it when their needs are met.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Hi,
I was chatting to someone the other day and he said we need suffering in this life to appreciate the good times. Or in other words, if God didn't allow suffering and everything was fine, then people would take things for granted and not turn to God.
What do you think?

Reminds me of a joke my Dad told me:

"Why are you beating your head against the wall?"

"Because it feels so good when I stop."

Edit - but just to get this straight: are you saying that without suffering, God would be incapable of getting people to turn to him?

 

[BucephalusBB]

Does a child not appreciate it's parents unless they hold back on it's needs?

I actually wouldn't know. I cannot remember my time before discomforts arrived.

 

[ChristineES]

To the OP: No.
You don't need to be warm to appreciate it, and you don't need to experience being affluent to appreciate (when you are poor).
But maybe some people would need to experience something in order to appreciate the opposite. I wouldn't know.

 

[Riverwolf]

Bad recognizes good, and good recognizes bad.

Both are interdependent. It's not that without the bad you can't appreciate the good, but that without bad there is no good to appreciate.

This is because "good" and "bad" are only concepts by which we humans categorize; they do not actually exist. Therefore, they both exist as frames of reference for each other.

Saying something is "good" is meaningless unless you have something to compare it to. Likewise with "bad".

 

[Youtellme]

Bad recognizes good, and good recognizes bad.

Both are interdependent. It's not that without the bad you can't appreciate the good, but that without bad there is no good to appreciate.

This is because "good" and "bad" are only concepts by which we humans categorize; they do not actually exist. Therefore, they both exist as frames of reference for each other.

Saying something is "good" is meaningless unless you have something to compare it to. Likewise with "bad".

Thanks, very good reasoning.

 

[Kerr]

Hi,
I was chatting to someone the other day and he said we need suffering in this life to appreciate the good times. Or in other words, if God didn't allow suffering and everything was fine, then people would take things for granted and not turn to God.
What do you think?

In a way it is true, that sometimes we (ok, more like "me", I am not speaking for anyone else ) need pain to appriciate the good. I know when I only have "good" in my life then I start to get lazy and so. However, there are many, many cases where this would not apply. For example I remember reading in a paper a while back about a girl who killed herself because she was bullied. That kind of pain has no constructive or positive sides, and the world would do much better without it.

Do not know if I like thinking that God allows suffering just so people will turn to him... sounds like he would be rather selfish, but what do I know. I don´t believe in him, lol.

 

[Midnight Pete]

Do you have to have the bad to appreciate the good?

Yes, I think so. What are the shadows if not for the light around them? And if all you've ever seen is the light, do you know what the light is?

 

[Youtellme]

Yes, I think so. What are the shadows if not for the light around them? And if all you've ever seen is the light, do you know what the light is?

Interesting. Thanks. The reason I posted this is because I will be discussing with him God's purpose for mankind, which in the beginning was to live in peace and without all the bad we have today. I'll try to explain that God still intends to bring this about. So from the Bible's viewpoint and therefore God's, he intends to get rid of all badness and suffering. What then for your/that viewpoint?

 

[Skwim]

Hi,
I was chatting to someone the other day and he said we need suffering in this life to appreciate the good times. Or in other words, if God didn't allow suffering and everything was fine, then people would take things for granted and not turn to God.
What do you think?

This, then, presupposes that god needs people to turn to him. And, that the only way he can do this is to insure that some, not all, suffer. Seems awfully egoistic, indifferent, and uncaring for god who is proclaimed to be loving and good. Because I know that if I was a good and loving god who created a people because I needed their worship, I'd simply instill that desire in them rather than make them suffer and wait for the outcome.

As for the OP question, "Do you have to have the bad to appreciate the good?" As far as appreciation goes, Yes. However, I see nothing inherently desirable about appreciation itself. Nothing that would warrant creating a negative just to have a positive if that positive provided no unique benefit.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

As for the OP question, "Do you have to have the bad to appreciate the good?" As far as appreciation goes, Yes. However, I see nothing inherently desirable about appreciation itself. Nothing that would warrant creating a negative just to have a positive if that positive provided no unique benefit.

I'm not sure about that. I know I enjoy breathing more when I'm suffocated on a regular basis - don't you?

 

[Skwim]

I'm not sure about that. I know I enjoy breathing more when I'm suffocated on a regular basis - don't you?

Your aside, which I do acknowledge, non-breathing wasn't created so we would enjoy breathing. The question "Do you have to have the bad to appreciate the good?" Implies a deliberate construction of the bad (non-breathing in this case) just so we would appreciate the good (breathing.) Non-breathing is simply the antithesis of breathing, not a necessary condition designed to make breathing desirable.

 

[Meow Mix]

Hi,
I was chatting to someone the other day and he said we need suffering in this life to appreciate the good times. Or in other words, if God didn't allow suffering and everything was fine, then people would take things for granted and not turn to God.
What do you think?

I don't think so. There are logically possible worlds where people can appreciate good without experiencing suffering. Suffering seems completely extraneous, so one wonders why God allows it honestly.

 

[Penumbra]

I suppose it depends on the circumstances.

A certain amount of unpleasant experiences can teach a very good lesson, or provide a broader framework for experience. Too much suffering merely destroys a person and makes life not worth living.

In regards to a religious defense of the problem of evil, it's a poor one for a variety of reasons including the asymmetric suffering as stated by atomist.