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Do You Obey The Law Because You're Afraid of Jail?

HiddenHijabi

Active Member
Sure, a lot of people like you exist.

Gven a lot more people are bot like you in such sense, it works as a punishment for most people in society.

There's been quite a few studies into the efficacy of prison as a punishment and the fact is that it doesn't work. Aside from the fact that in the UK certainly, many prisoners enjoy a better standard of life than they do on the outside, any hatred of being inside or fear of prison is wiped out by the fact that prisons often do little to tackle the reasons that the prisoner ended up in there in the first place- drug/alcohol addiction, lack of qualifications (meaning they can't get a job) or even illiteracy/innumeracy etc.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
There's been quite a few studies into the efficacy of prison as a punishment and the fact is that it doesn't work. Aside from the fact that in the UK certainly, many prisoners enjoy a better standard of life than they do on the outside, any hatred of being inside or fear of prison is wiped out by the fact that prisons often do little to tackle the reasons that the prisoner ended up in there in the first place- drug/alcohol addiction, lack of qualifications (meaning they can't get a job) or even illiteracy/innumeracy etc.

So you think that no prisons would mean less crime?
 

HiddenHijabi

Active Member
So you think that no prisons would mean less crime?


I don't think having no prisons is the answer, but I certainly think that the system needs re-evaluation so that those who need/want help can get it. At present something like up to 1/3 of an average prison has mental health issues, yet the legal system and prison system isn't equipped to help them. Neither is there any help for ex-convicts. Most are told the day of their release 'here's your stuff, there you go' and then get pushed out onto the streets, often with no housing, benefits or other arrangements made. The lucky ones have friends/family on the outside waiting for them. Many don't.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
I don't think having no prisons is the answer, but I certainly think that the system needs re-evaluation so that those who need/want help can get it. At present something like up to 1/3 of an average prison has mental health issues, yet the legal system and prison system isn't equipped to help them. Neither is there any help for ex-convicts. Most are told the day of their release 'here's your stuff, there you go' and then get pushed out onto the streets, often with no housing, benefits or other arrangements made. The lucky ones have friends/family on the outside waiting for them. Many don't.

I asked you if there would be less crime without prisons, or if anything if there would be MORE crime if there wereo prisons?

If you think there would be more crime, then why do you think that is?

Prison works because a lot of people fear it. If there were no prisons, a lot of people would do a lot of things they are not doing right now.
 

HiddenHijabi

Active Member
I asked you if there would be less crime without prisons, or if anything if there would be MORE crime if there wereo prisons?

If you think there would be more crime, then why do you think that is?

Prison works because a lot of people fear it. If there were no prisons, a lot of people would do a lot of things they are not doing right now.

I honestly don't know. But even with prisons, the crime rates are still going up and more people are entering the prison system, so that seems to suggest to my mind that a person's obedience to the law isn't anything to do with prison as punishment.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
I honestly don't know. But even with prisons, the crime rates are still going up and more people are entering the prison system, so that seems to suggest to my mind that a person's obedience to the law isn't anything to do with prison as punishment.

Yu dont tnk one single people fears jail?

Come on, you do know :rolleyes:
 

MattersOfTheHeart

Active Member
There are a few people who seem to think we (those who follow a faith, particularly Christianity) only believe because we are afraid of hell. Which prompted the question the OP asks.

Is the only reason you obey the law of the land because you are afraid of jail? ;););)
I think the idea of order sits better with me than chaos. As such, we seem to have the intellect to agree with that, whether we end up religious or not.

So, rules seem to reflect the collective inner being of people across faiths, cultures, sexes etc...

This seems to have little to do with the HELL rationale, in that I think most people follow the law of the land for said reason above, not for fear so much. Where as, if I believed in a literal hell, I might be perhaps feared into doing whatever it takes to not go there.
 

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
I wonder if Hidden Hijabi is suggesting an alternative to our western justice systems altogether?

Perhaps Sharia law? :)
 

Alex_G

Enlightner of the Senses
There are a few people who seem to think we (those who follow a faith, particularly Christianity) only believe because we are afraid of hell. Which prompted the question the OP asks.

Is the only reason you obey the law of the land because you are afraid of jail? ;););)


I actually act independent to the law. What motivates and guides me is my own moral reasoning and intuition. To be this way is the only truly free way in which to live and to be intellectually honest with myself.

Law and the relevant culture does run deep, and no doubt its presence throughout my life has rubbed off, perhaps framing certain things as default or presumed in my head, which might otherwise have appeared arbitrary to a person completely removed from such effects.
Never the less, for the most part i feel that my alignment with the law is simply coincidental, conditional on both my mind and the law agreeing on the underlying morality. When the law is wrong in my eyes, i tend not to let fear of repercussion or punishment beguile me into thinking it good.
Of course going to jail is a real threat, and is considered, but only from a pragmatic standpoint, not in a way that its presence as a threat impacts in anyway the initial moral qualities of the act in question.

Religion is in the business of meaning, or so it claims to be. But what its business really is, at least as far as i perceive it, is the control of people. There is something rotten and suspicious about a worldview that gains its weight by appealing to the words of God as quite literally the most meaningful words that could be, but then defers to threat of punishment and promise of reward as core mechanisms in the justification and policing of its prescribed way of life.


In a somewhat Nietzschean inspired manner, i tend to be quite anti authority and establishment. I like its justification to be clear, rather than have its validity and jurisdiction presumed and accepted by default or on tradition.

I think we are at almost every corner fashioned into this slavish, servile people, followers. Tame conventional creatures, committed to a life of comfort, staying out of trouble, keeping our noses clean, doing a good days work, behaving ourselves and wanting nothing more than to be a nice boy or a nice girl all the days of our lives. This society of essentially servile, mechanically living people who's lives are empty pointless sets of distractions one after another. Following the rules, just because. Religion, at least the Abrahamic ones, have a lot to answer for regarding this societal disposition. (And in following the law in so far as its 'rightness' is in its authority is yet another symptom of this slavish mindset.)

I often contemplate how tragic it is that so many people fail to rise above this all, myself included. And it further villainies the teachings of many religions that they actually endorse and actively fashion people into this way of life and state of mind, when all the while claiming to be a salvation, a truth that is there for the sole benefit of the person in question. It strikes me as one of the most powerfully trapping lies ever told.

All i have to do is look at a child, full of questions and wonder, free from the burdens of convention and servitude to see what so many people have sadly become as adults, and how far removed it must be from out true nature, and the free individuals we could otherwise be, truly authentic artists of our own existence. So much of the pain, anguish, depression and mental struggle of modern life likely stems from this way in which we deny ourselves who we are in order to yield to the paradigm of convention and rules. Sad times when you think of it like that.
 
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HiddenHijabi

Active Member
I wonder if Hidden Hijabi is suggesting an alternative to our western justice systems altogether?

Perhaps Sharia law? :)

Technically all Muslims, regardless of their living in a Muslim or non-Muslim country, adheres to some of the shar'ah given that it governs such things as marriage contracts, divorces, Islamic wills, banking (there exist now in the West several Islamic banks and banking services), business dealings and also religious practices such as wudu, dress code and prayer.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
Technically all Muslims, regardless of their living in a Muslim or non-Muslim country, adheres to some of the shar'ah given that it governs such things as marriage contracts, divorces, Islamic wills, banking (there exist now in the West several Islamic banks and banking services), business dealings and also religious practices such as wudu, dress code and prayer.

Whats your point?
 

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
Technically all Muslims, regardless of their living in a Muslim or non-Muslim country, adheres to some of the shar'ah given that it governs such things as marriage contracts, divorces, Islamic wills, banking (there exist now in the West several Islamic banks and banking services), business dealings and also religious practices such as wudu, dress code and prayer.

So am I right in guessing this is where a lot of the contention lies with the western justice system?

Sharia would be better?
 

HiddenHijabi

Active Member
I wonder if Hidden Hijabi is suggesting an alternative to our western justice systems altogether?

Perhaps Sharia law? :)

Technically all Muslims, regardless of their living in a Muslim or non-Muslim country, adheres to some of the shar'ah given that it governs such things as marriage contracts, divorces, Islamic wills, banking (there exist now in the West several Islamic banks and banking services), business dealings and also religious practices such as wudu, dress code and prayer.

The issue I think you're referencing here is a totally shari'ah-based legal system which would include hearing and punishment of criminal cases according to Islamic law. This would likely only ever be the case where the country was a Muslim-majority one, and this is unlikely. It would also, in my country anyway, require a Muslim-majority Houses of Parliament and also a Muslim monarch, given that laws in this country must be signed into power by them. This is again unlikely as there are currently something like 8 Muslims in both Houses out of almost 900 peers and MPs. This would be the case in pretty much any country that the ruling body would need to be Muslim, and at present numbers of actual Muslim politicians is small.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
My view on it is that basically I follow my morales rather than law, but they are generally pretty close. Having said that;

If there was a law that I thought was ridiculous...for the sake of example, let's say you weren't allowed to wear yellow laces in black shoes...and I had an old beat up pair of black shoes with yellow laces? And the punishment was prison? Then I would follow the law purely to stay out of prison.

(I'd also be writing letters or attending rallies, but, yeah...it's just a hypothetical)

So in short, I could forsee obeying laws purely to stay out of prison.

For HiddenHijabi, if you personally had the choice to implement shari'ah, would you go that way, and why/why not?
 

HiddenHijabi

Active Member
For HiddenHijabi, if you personally had the choice to implement shari'ah, would you go that way, and why/why not?

If you're talking about shari'ah law being implemented in the UK, then I would implement shari'ah here. I'd choose to do this as I believe that a properly-managed system of shariah law would serve much better than the current systems of law in many ways. I would however personally like to see shariah law not applied to non-Muslims in terms of their own religious and social practices.
 

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
If you're talking about shari'ah law being implemented in the UK, then I would implement shari'ah here. I'd choose to do this as I believe that a properly-managed system of shariah law would serve much better than the current systems of law in many ways. I would however personally like to see shariah law not applied to non-Muslims in terms of their own religious and social practices.

How would this be any different than what the UK has now allowing Sharia courts?

Also, can you even implement Sharia without it effecting non-Muslims? Sharia covers treatment of non-Muslims as well- as second class citizens might I add.
 

HiddenHijabi

Active Member
How would this be any different than what the UK has now allowing Sharia courts?

Also, can you even implement Sharia without it effecting non-Muslims? Sharia covers treatment of non-Muslims as well- as second class citizens might I add.

Currently shariah decisions aren't recognised as being of legal significance in the UK, so if I wished to get a divorce and I was married to a Muslim man, at present I have to get a religious and civil divorce. Similarly If I do something like sell a business to another Muslim, there has to be civil and shariah proceedings.
I'd ideally like to see shariah recognised in law so that I can go through a legal system appropriate to my needs and wishes.

That second bit is easy- make it an option within the legal system to go before Islamic judges in both criminal and civil courts. In this way non-Muslims do not have shariah imposed upon them and Muslims have the option of either legal system. I should have added to my original post that I believe there should be a parallel shariah court system to the normal UK one.
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
There are a few people who seem to think we (those who follow a faith, particularly Christianity) only believe because we are afraid of hell. Which prompted the question the OP asks.

Is the only reason you obey the law of the land because you are afraid of jail? ;););)

Cute, but not the same. This isn't about believing in the law of the land, but actually not doing what would put you in jail. You know, like stealing, killing people, setting buildings on fire, etc. You don't have to acknowledge the law as being The One Supreme Law without refraining from doing things that hurt people.

I could refrain from all of those without believing in them as the One Supreme Law of the land that I must follow and revere and pray to and evangelize about, and it would keep me out of jail. Why? Because I just don't like to do things that cause pain and misery to people. But let's say my works are the exact same as my fellow citizen's works, but the Supreme Law of the land saw that I didn't see it as the only Supreme Law....if I were to go to jail and not my fellow citizen just because of what I believe, then that is morally reprehensible.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I obey the laws because I agree with 99% of them. Laws are there to protect the people. Fear of jail has nothing to do with it. But it does bring up a level of thinking out there that doesn't quite see the connection.

'So I don't get in trouble' is a common answer in elementary schools, to questions, like "Why do you do your homework?"
 

Wirey

Fartist
I just flipped off a twit on 97th street and spat on their windshield. I tried to get them to pull over so we could 'chat'.

Apparently, I obey the law because I usually choose to. I listen to my inner voice, and today it was screaming at me to clean up the gene pool.
 
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