Do you really have a choice?

[Nakosis]

My point of view:
I do not believe that humans are just a function of electrical impulses in our brains. I believe that humans have a soul that operates through the brain and mind while we are alive in a physical body, and the soul is the person, our personality which is what causes us to make choices.

I believe we have a will and we make choices based upon our desires and preferences, which come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances - everything that goes into making us the person we are. All of these factors are the reasons why we choose one thing or another at any point in time.

How free our choices vary with the situation. Certainly, what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints such as ability and opportunity but we have volition as otherwise we could not do anything.

So basically a metaphysical view of free will.

Do you understand why God is not causal in man's choices and why God's knowledge does not limit man's choices?

I know nothing about God so have to rely on your views.

If you believe what most nonbelievers believe then we are simply programmed robots doing what God knows we will do and we have no free will.

I don't believe we are simply programmed robots, if a God exist, I've no idea what they happen to know, and do believe we have free will.

If you understand that God does not cause us to do anything just by knowing we will do it then you will get the door prize for being the first nonbeliever who ever understood this.

Well, lets see. Do you believe God is omniscient and if there is any limit to God's omniscience?

Perhaps for example omniscience in this case means that God knows everything that exists but that since the future does not yet exist it falls outside of the scope of God's omniscience?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Free will is defined as being the capacity or ability to choose between different possible courses of action. If we will act as God knows, as you admitted, we have one course of action only!!!

Umm .. no ..

An agent can do otherwise, if they can do otherwise, if they WANT to do otherwise.

You are ignoring that crucial point, and implying they were not free to choose what they have chosen.
That is an infamous fallacy, that many people are dazzled by.
..but not me, I'm afraid.

There is no such thing as 'illusion of free-will' in this context.

I'm not going to continue discussing with someone who tries hard to pretend that he can not understand standard logic..

I'm not pretending .. you are entitled to believe what you like.
You have not explained why I am wrong .. you just repeat that it is obvious that if the future is fixed,
then we have no choice .. because you can't see past what you feel is obvious ..
..however obvious you think it might be, it is not correct .. we are NOT constrained by knowledge
of what we WILL choose .. it is one of those 'time paradox' / brain-teaser things.

Yes it is, I stated that from the beginning... exactly like the timeless God, his omniscience and the whole religion is hypothetical. But being hypothetical does not invalidate my question.

I answered your question.
You make a conditional statement .. you could just as easily have said it was a yellow dress.
It is fallacious to conclude that the choice is not free, because you stipulated it.

I know what you mean .. you are saying that if G-d knows you will choose 'something', then you have no choice but to choose that 'something'.

..but why? Is it because you have no choice? No.
It is because that is what you choose of your own free-will.
You HAVE to choose something

 

[Ajax]

Umm .. no ..

An agent can do otherwise, if they can do otherwise, if they WANT to do otherwise.

You are ignoring that crucial point, and implying they were not free to choose what they have chosen.
That is an infamous fallacy, that many people are dazzled by.
..but not me, I'm afraid.

There is no such thing as 'illusion of free-will' in this context.

OK, I will put it in another way.. We are (our brain actually) free to choose from different options based on our past experience, but... at the end of the day we have to choose what God knows that we will choose (remember you said that God knows all our actions). Otherwise if we choose something different than what God knows/sees, he is not omniscient. This decision of ours to abide by what God knows/sees, in reality limits our actions/choices to one only, regardless of how many other options we have. Does it make sense to you now?

I answered your question.
You make a conditional statement .. you could just as easily have said it was a yellow dress.
It is fallacious to conclude that the choice is not free, because you stipulated it.

No, you didn't answer. I made no conditional statement. It is an eyewitness statement. In the example, Jane had the option to choose any kind of color dress. But since you, or whoever traveled in time for a week, saw that she picked the pink one, Jane will pick the pink one in a week's time. The same eyewitness statement applies to God for our actions, if he is omniscient and can see past, present and future.

So if in your time travel you actually saw Jane to buy the pink dress, do you think she could buy a different color in a week's time?
It's amazing how hard you try to avoid answering this simple question.
I don't even believe in predestination.

 

[muhammad_isa]

OK, I will put it in another way.. We are (our brain actually) free to choose from different options based on our past experience, but... at the end of the day we have to choose what God knows that we will choose (remember you said that God knows all our actions)..

No, no .. you imply that we have no choice, by saying "we have to choose".
Why do we have to choose it?

..is it because G-d has made us choose it? No.
So your wording is misleading.

It is that WE WILL choose it, of our own free-will.

No, you didn't answer. I made no conditional statement. It is an eyewitness statement. In the example, Jane had the option to choose any kind of color dress..

Right .. so she chose it of her own free-will.

But since you, or whoever traveled in time for a week, saw that she picked the pink one, Jane will pick the pink one in a week's time. The same eyewitness statement applies to God for our actions, if he is omniscient and can see past, present and future.

No problem .. what you see as 'an illusion of free-will' is not .. humans are dazzled/confused by the passage of time.
..which is why, of course, that you made up your scenario .. to try to dazzle me.

So if in your time travel you actually saw Jane to buy the pink dress, do you think she could buy a different color in a week's time?

It doesn't make any difference.

There can only be ONE TIME LINE, from the beginning of time until the end of time.
The past, most people have no problem with .. we know it is .. we can accept one time line.
..but when it comes to the future, we say "it hasn't happened yet", and envisage multiple events.

In reality, only one set of events will take place. It's just that we don't know what it is.
..so when it is suggested that "someone" knows what it is, it presents a conundrum.
HOW do they know what it is?

That's the question you should be asking, but you prefer to play silly games, suggesting that
it must be 'destiny' which rules our choices.
It is a fallacious argument .. it is our choices (amongst other things), that create our destiny.

..and other than continually repeating the infamous fallacy, you have done nothing to
show that our choices are made by other than ourselves.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, lets see. Do you believe God is omniscient and if there is any limit to God's omniscience?

Perhaps for example omniscience in this case means that God know everything that exists but that since the future does not yet exist it falls outside of the scope of God's omniscience?

Omniscient means all-knowing, so that means that God knows everything.
God has perfect foreknowledge, so everything that will ever happen to each and every person in their lives is written on the Tablet of Fate.
These events have not happened to us yet since we exist in linear time, but God knows what these events will be before they happen to us on earth.

The future has not occurred yet in this world, a world that is contingent upon time, but in the spiritual realm where God exists, there is no such thing as linear time. Rather, time and space are collapsed such that all events are knowable and as such it is possible to see everything simultaneously.

God, being omniscient, knows and foresees everything that has ever happened, what is happening now, and what will happen in the future on earth simultaneously, not linearly, but humans exist in linear time so we see things linearly.

Humans have free will and the ability to choose what we will do throughout our lives, over the course of time. Whatever we end up doing will be what God knew we would do, because God is all-knowing.

I am not saying that we can choose to do anything we might want to do, because free will is circumscribed by many factors, but we can make certain choices that affect our lives and cause them to unfold as they do.

 

[Nakosis]

Omniscient means all-knowing, so that means that God knows everything.
God has perfect foreknowledge, so everything that will ever happen to each and every person in their lives is written on the Tablet of Fate.
These events have not happened to us yet since we exist in linear time, but God knows what these events will be before they happen to us on earth.

The future has not occurred yet in this world, a world that is contingent upon time, but in the spiritual realm where God exists, there is no such thing as linear time. Rather, time and space are collapsed such that all events are knowable and as such it is possible to see everything simultaneously.

God, being omniscient, knows and foresees everything that has ever happened, what is happening now, and what will happen in the future on earth simultaneously, not linearly, but humans exist in linear time so we see things linearly.

Humans have free will and the ability to choose what we will do throughout our lives, over the course of time. Whatever we end up doing will be what God knew we would do, because God is all-knowing.

I am not saying that we can choose to do anything we might want to do, because free will is circumscribed by many factors, but we can make certain choices that affect our lives and cause them to unfold as they do.

So God knows what our choices will be before we do but this knowledge is not causal.
However this does say that we could not choose anything other than what God has foreseen.

Sounds like a form of compatibilism. Basically our choices are self determined but we could would not have chosen otherwise.

This means then you don't agree with theological determinism? Where God has determined every event in advance. That's the view I'd suppose you'd find people trying to force on you. Some religious folks do have this view however. They just have a different understanding of God than you.

 

[Ajax]

It doesn't make any difference.

In reality, only one set of events will take place. It's just that we don't know what it is.
..so when it is suggested that "someone" knows what it is, it presents a conundrum.
HOW do they know what it is?

You still didn't answer my question despite having asked you three times. Are you shy to write a "yes" or"no" reply?
And I'm the one playing silly games? Really?

In reality, only one set of events will take place. It's just that we don't know what it is.
..so when it is suggested that "someone" knows what it is, it presents a conundrum.
HOW do they know what it is?

Do you have some kind of problem understanding? I'm sure you are not, so why are you writing "when it is suggested that "someone" knows what it is, it presents a conundrum. HOW do they know what it is?"
Because your "someone" is your God whom you consider to be omniscient, who as you wrote can see the past, the present and the future and knows all our actions in advance.
Thanks for the insane discussion. I can not spend any more time discussing this with you. We beg to differ. Good bye.

 

[Ajax]

God, being omniscient, knows and foresees everything that has ever happened, what is happening now, and what will happen in the future on earth simultaneously, not linearly, but humans exist in linear time so we see things linearly.

Humans have free will and the ability to choose what we will do throughout our lives, over the course of time. Whatever we end up doing will be what God knew we would do, because God is all-knowing.

May I ask a question? There is no doubt that we have the ability to choose what we could do in our lives, but.... ending up doing what God knew
we would do, doesn't this automatically cancel out all our previous choices? If not, please explain how this can be done.

 

[Trailblazer]

May I ask a question? There is no doubt that we have the ability to choose what we could do in our lives, but.... ending up doing what God knew
we would do, doesn't this automatically cancel out all our previous choices? If not, please explain how this can be done.

We will end up choosing what God knew we would choose, but BEFORE we made that choice we could have chosen something else.
Whatever we ended up choosing would have been what God knew we would choose since God knew what we would choose.

For example, Johnny wakes up and looks in his closet deciding what he will wear today. In his closet is a red shirt, a blue shirt, and a green shirt.
Johnny can choose to wear whichever color shirt he wants to wear.

If Johnny chooses to wear a red shirt, God will have known that Johnny would choose a red shirt.
If Johnny chooses to wear a blue shirt, God will have known that Johnny would choose a blue shirt.
If Johnny chooses to wear a green shirt, God will have known that Johnny would choose a green shirt.

So, whatever Johnny chooses is what God knew Johnny would choose, but that has no bearing upon Johnny's ability to choose.
What God knows has no effect upon what we choose. All-knowing is simply an attribute of God.

 

[Ajax]

We will end up choosing what God knew we would choose, but BEFORE we made that choice we could have chosen something else.
Whatever we ended up choosing would have been what God knew we would choose since God knew what we would choose.

For example, Johnny wakes up and looks in his closet deciding what he will wear today. In his closet is a red shirt, a blue shirt, and a green shirt.
Johnny can choose to wear whichever color shirt he wants to wear.

If Johnny chooses to wear a red shirt, God will have known that Johnny would choose a red shirt.
If Johnny chooses to wear a blue shirt, God will have known that Johnny would choose a blue shirt.
If Johnny chooses to wear a green shirt, God will have known that Johnny would choose a green shirt.

So, whatever Johnny chooses is what God knew Johnny would choose, but that has no bearing upon Johnny's ability to choose.
What God knows has no effect upon what we choose. All-knowing is simply an attribute of God.

If God foreknows what Johnny will choose all along and well before Johnny's action, then..
If Johnny chooses to wear a red shirt, God will have known that Johnny would choose a red shirt (So Johnny could not choose a blue or green shirt).
If Johnny chooses to wear a blue shirt, God will have known that Johnny would choose a blue shirt ((So Johnny could not choose a green or red shirt).
If Johnny chooses to wear a green shirt, God will have known that Johnny would choose a green shirt. (So Johnny could not choose a blue or red shirt).

Your statements "Whatever we ended up choosing would have been what God knew we would choose since God knew what we would choose" and "What God knows has no effect upon what we choose" are totally contradictory, in my view.

 

[Trailblazer]

If God foreknows what Johnny will choose all along and well before Johnny's action, then..
If Johnny chooses to wear a red shirt, God will have known that Johnny would choose a red shirt (So Johnny could not choose a blue or green shirt).
If Johnny chooses to wear a blue shirt, God will have known that Johnny would choose a blue shirt ((So Johnny could not choose a green or red shirt).
If Johnny chooses to wear a green shirt, God will have known that Johnny would choose a green shirt. (So Johnny could not choose a blue or red shirt).

If God foreknows what Johnny will choose all along and well before Johnny's action, then..
If Johnny chooses to wear a red shirt, God will have known that Johnny would choose a red shirt.
If Johnny chooses to wear a blue shirt, God will have known that Johnny would choose a blue shirt.
If Johnny chooses to wear a green shirt, God will have known that Johnny would choose a green shirt..

Johnny could have chosen to wear any color of shirt that were in his closet, and whatever color shirt Johnny chose would be the color that God has always known Johnny would choose.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you change the words could not to would not you would be correct.

If God foreknows what Johnny will choose all along and well before Johnny's action, then..
If Johnny chooses to wear a red shirt, God will have known that Johnny would choose a red shirt (So Johnny would not choose a blue or green shirt).
If Johnny chooses to wear a blue shirt, God will have known that Johnny would choose a blue shirt ((So Johnny would not choose a green or red shirt).
If Johnny chooses to wear a green shirt, God will have known that Johnny would choose a green shirt. (So Johnny would not choose a blue or red shirt).

The reason that Johnny would not choose another color of shirt other than the one he chose is because Johnny will pick the color shirt that God knows he will choose since the all-knowing God knows what color shirt Johnny will choose.

But Johnny could have chosen any color shirt he wanted to choose and that color will be the color God knew he would choose.

Your statements "Whatever we ended up choosing would have been what God knew we would choose since God knew what we would choose" and "What God knows has no effect upon what we choose" are totally contradictory, in my view.

Whatever we ended up choosing would have been what God knew we would choose since God knew what we would choose, but God knows has no effect upon what we choose because God's knowledge is not what caused us to choose what we chose.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

“The mathematicians by astronomical calculations know that at a certain time an eclipse of the moon or the sun will occur. Surely this discovery does not cause the eclipse to take place. This is, of course, only an analogy and not an exact image.” Some Answered Questions, p. 139

 

[muhammad_isa]

If you change the words could not to would not you would be correct..

Exactly !

The fact that G-d knows what we will choose, does not imply that that is WHY we chose it.
..as you point out, the fact we know that an eclipse will take place, isn't the reason it takes place.

 

[Ajax]

“The mathematicians by astronomical calculations know that at a certain time an eclipse of the moon or the sun will occur. Surely this discovery does not cause the eclipse to take place. This is, of course, only an analogy and not an exact image.” Some Answered Questions, p. 139

This is completely irrelevant. Eclipse is not an act of free will.

More appropriate example are:
If God knew and had made a plan for Jesus to be crucified, could Jesus do otherwise? The answer is NO.
If God knew that he will give the 10 commandments to Moses, could Moses refuse to take them? NO.
Could Mary refuse to be impregnated by the Holy Spirit? NO
Could Judas refuse to betray Jesus? NO
The list of more examples like the above can go on...

 

[Ajax]

Personally I don't believe in omniscience and determinism, and we discuss in vain, but read what scripture state...

Rom.8:29-30 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
Eph 1:4 "even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will "
Acts 13:48 "And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."
2 Tim 1:9 "who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not in virtue of our works but in virtue of his own purpose and the grace which he gave us in Christ Jesus ages ago"
1 Peter 1:2 " chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit for obedience to Jesus Christ"

The question therefore is, did/do all these believers have free will and could/can they choose to become unbelievers? If the answer is yes, then obviously scripture is wrong once again.

Science has shown that free will originates from our brain before even have the conscious inclination of our intention to choose. And that's a fact.

 

[Ajax]

It's intriguing though that none answered the question I asked in my example with a simple yes, or no, so I will repeat it for the last time.

Suppose for argument's sake that a time machine is invented and you are sent one week ahead. You see a friend of yours say Jane, in a clothes' shop at 2.45 exactly buying a pink floral dress.

Is there the slightest possibility that Jane, despite the many choices she has, will not buy the same floral dress at exactly the same time next week?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Science has proven that free will originates from our brain before even have the conscious inclination of our intention to choose. And that's a fact.

No, it isn't. It's a widely accepted hypothesis.

 

[muhammad_isa]

This is completely irrelevant. Eclipse is not an act of free will.

More appropriate example are:
If God knew and had made a plan for Jesus to be crucified, could Jesus do otherwise? The answer is NO.

That's not an appropriate example.
Would a person CHOOSE to be crucified?

 

[muhammad_isa]

It's intriguing though that none answered the question I asked in my example with a simple yes, or no..

You won't learn anything by such an attitude .. a simple yes/no could not explain why the answer is yes or no.

 

[Ajax]

No, it isn't. It's a widely accepted hypothesis.

Correct, I was in a hurry. I should have written"shown". Will correct it

 

[Ajax]

You won't learn anything by such an attitude .. a simple yes/no could not explain why the answer is yes or no.

It doesn't matter to me. Answer with a yes or no and then could discuss the explanation.

Your problem and dilemma is that you can not answer with a yes or no.
If you answer yes (she could choose another color next week) you risk being regarded as silly, because what you have seen/witnessed when you were in the future, can not change.
If you answer no, you would confirm my point.
Easy solution? You can say that God is not omniscient