Do you think Islam as a religion has a thing to do with having many Muslims contributed in science?

[MD]

I'm not a Liberal (great assumption, especially when I've pointed out numerous times here recently that I'm not a Liberal), and I am not going to deny history, and that is the Ottoman's were far more tolerant than Christian Europe during the same time. And I didn't say it was great, but I did say they practiced more religious tolerance than Europe. Perhaps you need to take a step back and rethink things if you get "great pluralistic society" from one comment regarding one aspect of the Ottoman empire.

Are you so blinded by your own ethnomasochism that you think the massacre of millions of Christians is better than 'a backwards Europe'?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Are you so blinded by your own ethnomasochism that you think the massacre of millions of Christians is better than 'a backwards Europe'?

What "ethnomasochism?" It is a fact that the Ottoman Empire, despite their slavery, repression of women, massacres, and so on and so forth, allowed for religious tolerance that Europe didn't. That is a fact.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Some verses of the Quran that could be related to this (added to the OP):
(20:14) :- "and say, 'My Lord, increase me in knowledge.'"
(58:11) :- "Allah will raise those who have believed among you and those who were given knowledge, by degrees. And Allah is Acquainted with what you do."
(3:190) :- "Who remember God while standing or sitting or [lying] on their sides and give thought to the creation of the heavens and the earth, [saying], "Our Lord, You did not create this aimlessly"
(39:9) :- "Are those who have knowledge equal to those who do not? Only they will remember are the people of understanding".
(35:27) :- "Among those who fear God are His servants who have knowledge."

I believe they encourage seeking knowledge.

 

[columbus]

Some verses of the Quran that could be related to this (added to the OP):
(20:14) :- "and say, 'My Lord, increase me in knowledge.'"
(58:11) :- "Allah will raise those who have believed among you and those who were given knowledge, by degrees. And Allah is Acquainted with what you do."
(3:190) :- "Who remember God while standing or sitting or [lying] on their sides and give thought to the creation of the heavens and the earth, [saying], "Our Lord, You did not create this aimlessly"
(39:9) :- "Are those who have knowledge equal to those who do not? Only they will remember are the people of understanding".
(35:27) :- "Among those who fear God are His servants who have knowledge."

I believe they encourage seeking knowledge.

The problem with this is the word "knowledge" .
There are a couple billion people who see "Jesus is an Eternal CoCreator. One Person of a Triune God. Was crucified and Rose on the third day" to be knowledge.
Islam doesn't recognize that as knowledge. But the Quran uses the same word, when translated into English.
Tom

 

[FearGod]

It seems like Islamic contributions to science took off after the Islamic Empire conquered Sassanid Persia as well as Byzantine Alexandria - both realms of knowledge & education - and have since declined. It wouldn't surprise me if the majority of early Muslim scientists were of Persian descent rather than Arab descent. What was it one Arab historian said of the conquered Persians? Something like "We (Arabs) have been governing them (Persians) for a century and cannot do without them for a day. They have been ruling empires for centuries and have never needed us for a minute."

I wonder that every and each reply of you have some hate, are you programmed.

I thought you hate Islam, but it seems you hate Arabs, maybe because the quran is Arabic.
But you should know that the capital of knowledge and science was in Baghdad.
House of Wisdom - Wikipedia

 

[FearGod]

The were indeed. For example the greatest scientist in the Middle Ages was Muhammad Al Biruni, an Iranian. Many weren't Muslims, either: Costa ben Luca was a Syrian Christian, Messahala an Iranian Jew, Thebit a Syrian Pagan, and so on.

They were under the Islamic empire, it's great evidence that all were sharing
in the progress during that era, So I believe Islam did a great advancement
for humanity that we can see its effect today as even the ancient scientific
books were restored by the Muslim scholars and they worked on it.

 

[YmirGF]

I wonder that every and each reply of you have some hate, are you programmed.

I thought you hate Islam, but it seems you hate Arabs, maybe because the quran is Arabic.
But you should know that the capital of knowledge and science was in Baghdad.
House of Wisdom - Wikipedia

But the House of Wisdom was gone over 1100 years ago.............. At this point in time, so what?

 

[LuisDantas]

Some verses of the Quran that could be related to this (added to the OP):
(20:14) :- "and say, 'My Lord, increase me in knowledge.'"
(58:11) :- "Allah will raise those who have believed among you and those who were given knowledge, by degrees. And Allah is Acquainted with what you do."
(3:190) :- "Who remember God while standing or sitting or [lying] on their sides and give thought to the creation of the heavens and the earth, [saying], "Our Lord, You did not create this aimlessly"
(39:9) :- "Are those who have knowledge equal to those who do not? Only they will remember are the people of understanding".
(35:27) :- "Among those who fear God are His servants who have knowledge."

I believe they encourage seeking knowledge.

True enough. I don't think we should expect otherwise, though.

More specifically, it is not clear to me that the realistic alternatives would be any worse in that regard. Knowledge is rewarding and generally very much a good thing.

 

[FearGod]

But the House of Wisdom was gone over 1100 years ago.............. At this point in time, so what?

I think we were talking about the Islamic empire, it doesn't exist today.

 

[icehorse]

Assyrian genocide - Wikipedia
Armenian Genocide - Wikipedia
Greek genocide - Wikipedia
Great Famine of Mount Lebanon - Wikipedia

Liberal logic: Millions killed by Ottomans = pluralistic, great society

Please, can we say instead "PCMC logic" ? thanks. Because the PCMC crowd is giving liberal values a bad name, and I'm not willing to cede the term to the PCMCers.

 

[icehorse]

Back to the OP; let me ask the Muslims a question:

If a new scientific discover makes a verse in the Quran wrong, what do you do?

I think the reason that Islam has contributed so little in the last 1000 years is because Muslims must do all their thinking from the perspective of the Quran. It's like building a ship in a bottle. Or like trying to tie knots with one hand behind your back.

 

[Iti oj]

Please, can we say instead "PCMC logic" ? thanks. Because the PCMC crowd is giving liberal values a bad name, and I'm not willing to cede the term to the PCMCers.

Pcmc?

 

[icehorse]

Pcmc?

Oops I did it again. Sorry, I was sure I picked up that abbreviation here on RF!? PCMC is "politically correct, multi-culturalist".

My contention is that for the most part, the PCMC crowd has abandoned true liberal values which I think traditionally were closely aligned with secular humanism.

 

[Brickjectivity]

It is conceivable that Scientific knowledge can continue to increase under Islam. A good question is what will Muslims do with such knowledge as Chemistry, such as Nuclear Physics and other world-ending technologies. Will they suppress nuclear war better than other cultures? What about Robotics -- is it acceptable or unacceptable? Is knowledge intrinsically good or is it forbidden sometimes? Is global warming going to be addressed better by Muslim culture? What about nuclear war, space exploration, medical advances and ending poverty?

 

[Flankerl]

> Baghdad
> Golden Age

800 years later, they still mad!

• The Grand Library of Baghdad, containing countless precious historical documents and books on subjects ranging from medicine to astronomy, was destroyed. Survivors said that the waters of the Tigris ran black with ink from the enormous quantities of books flung into the river and red from the blood of the scientists and philosophers killed.
• Citizens attempted to flee, but were intercepted by Mongol soldiers who killed in abundance, sparing neither women nor children. Martin Sicker writes that close to 90,000 people may have died. Other estimates go much higher. Wassaf claims the loss of life was several hundred thousand. Ian Frazier of The New Yorker says estimates of the death toll have ranged from 200,000 to a million.
• The Mongols looted and then destroyed mosques, palaces, libraries, and hospitals. Grand buildings that had been the work of generations were burned to the ground.
• The caliph Al-Musta'sim was captured and forced to watch as his citizens were murdered and his treasury plundered. According to most accounts, the caliph was killed by trampling. The Mongols rolled the caliph up in a rug, and rode their horses over him, as they believed that the earth would be offended if it were touched by royal blood. But the Venetian traveller Marco Polo claimed that Al-Musta'sim was locked in a tower with nothing to eat but gold and “died like a dog”.
• All but one of Al-Musta'sim's sons were killed, and the sole surviving son was sent to Mongolia, where Mongolian historians report he married and fathered children, but played no role in Islam thereafter (see The end of the Abbasid dynasty).
• Hulagu had to move his camp upwind of the city, due to the stench of decay from the ruined city.

 

[Iti oj]

Oops I did it again. Sorry, I was sure I picked up that abbreviation here on RF!? PCMC is "politically correct, multi-culturalist".

My contention is that for the most part, the PCMC crowd has abandoned true liberal values which I think traditionally were closely aligned with secular humanism.

Thanks for clarifying

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

What do you guys think?

Do you think Islam as a religion has a thing to do with having many Muslims contributed in science?

And can we relate to it that Muslims, compared to other religious people, had so many known scientists to the whole world?

I'll leave this here as a reference:
List of Muslim scientists - Wikipedia

I'm not personally debating anything here. I have it here so other members could debate if they want.

Some verses of the Quran that could be related to this:
(20:14) :- "and say, 'My Lord, increase me in knowledge.'"
(58:11) :- "Allah will raise those who have believed among you and those who were given knowledge, by degrees. And Allah is Acquainted with what you do."
(3:190) :- "Who remember God while standing or sitting or [lying] on their sides and give thought to the creation of the heavens and the earth, [saying], "Our Lord, You did not create this aimlessly"
(39:9) :- "Are those who have knowledge equal to those who do not? Only they will remember are the people of understanding".
(35:27) :- "Among those who fear God are His servants who have knowledge."

The Middle East was once the hub of scientific inovation, light years ahead of the world. Then, Mohammed happened, and that was the end of that.

 

[Shad]

What do you guys think?

Do you think Islam as a religion has a thing to do with having many Muslims contributed in science?

And can we relate to it that Muslims, compared to other religious people, had so many known scientists to the whole world?

I'll leave this here as a reference:
List of Muslim scientists - Wikipedia

I'm not personally debating anything here. I have it here so other members could debate if they want.

Some verses of the Quran that could be related to this:
(20:14) :- "and say, 'My Lord, increase me in knowledge.'"
(58:11) :- "Allah will raise those who have believed among you and those who were given knowledge, by degrees. And Allah is Acquainted with what you do."
(3:190) :- "Who remember God while standing or sitting or [lying] on their sides and give thought to the creation of the heavens and the earth, [saying], "Our Lord, You did not create this aimlessly"
(39:9) :- "Are those who have knowledge equal to those who do not? Only they will remember are the people of understanding".
(35:27) :- "Among those who fear God are His servants who have knowledge."

Islam, like many religions, provides a worldview that will inspire it's followers curiosity and goals. However inspiration is not methodology which is produced by human ingenuity.

Those verses use knowledge within different contexts. This shifts what we mean by "knowledge" as it includes teleological (3:190), theological (58:11, 20:14, 35:27) and prophetic knowledge (ibn). Teleological knowledge is regarding purpose thus is subjective so will vary between individuals; fatalism, determinism, free will, God's will, etc. Theological knowledge is based on presupposition and is subjective. Prophetic knowledge is based on a presupposition and subjective. For different individual any or all of the 3 may or may not be true. For those individuals I acknowledge these view are true to them.

I am not sure how we can make a fair comparison without developing a methodology(s) and standard(s) we can agree upon. Do we invalidate previous ideas that are wrong, full or in part, such as Newtonian physics? A lot of wrong idea were still very useful for ideas we think are correct in modern times. How do we assess a person's religious conviction? They could be apostates, true believers, heretics, etc. As a generalized label I am fine with calling people Christians, Muslims, Hindus, etc. However we should acknowledge that this is a generalization to avoid projecting our specific religious convictions held in modern times as if it was the same as these people centuries ago.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Good posts, guys. Thank you for sharing!

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

I wonder that every and each reply of you have some hate, are you programmed.

I thought you hate Islam, but it seems you hate Arabs, maybe because the quran is Arabic.
But you should know that the capital of knowledge and science was in Baghdad.
House of Wisdom - Wikipedia

You're reading an emotion or prejudice into my post that simply isn't there. It's not hate to point out that Arab contributions to science were pretty limited (or even non-existent) until they conquered more scientifically advanced societies like the Persians and the Byzantines and as a result gained access to their accumulated knowledge. It's simple fact. Indeed; this was a trend an Arab scholar, Ibn Khaldun noticed in the fourteenth century; that Persians, not Arabs, tended to be well-learned and scholarly. Obviously, Ibn Khaldun himself is the proof that this was not universally true.