• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Documentary on Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden

xkatz

Well-Known Member
Documentary Film | The Office of His Holiness The Dalai Lama

This is about the Dorje Shugden/Dalai Lama Controversy.

Dorje Shugden is seen by some as a Dharma Protector, and by others (Dalai Lama is one) he is seen as a malevolent spirit.

BTW, I live in Indianapolis and im seeing the Dalai Lama next friday! He will be talking about the Compassion and Wisdom.

I am curious, as a Dorje Shugden practitioner, do you "dislike" the Dalai Lama?
 

Dorje

Ri-me
I am curious, as a Dorje Shugden practitioner, do you "dislike" the Dalai Lama?

Absolutly not. I actually like the Dalai Lama, but im a little dissapointed about his views of Dorje Shugden and how he is handling it.
 
Dorje, as someone who has worked with Tibetans and visited Tibet, I am a bit dissapointed that you posted this thread.

His Holiness has often stated that one of his most important commitments is the promotion of inter-religious understanding and harmony. As part of this endeavour, His Holiness is committed to promoting non-sectarianism in all schools of Tibetan Buddhism. Dhogyal is a wrathful diety that is part of a sectarian tradition.

Don't you know that China is trying to undermine your people by promoting this cult? I feel sorry that your people have endured 50 years of sedition, genocide, and subversiveness from the Chinese. You should believe what you want, but when we associate with negativity and bad people we become karmically linked to them, and not in a good way.

We have to do what we can to promote positive thinking. At the end of the day it's all we really have: our thoughts and ourselves. As a part of Tibetan society, you should also recognize that harmony with your friends and family is the glue that holds you together. Instead of fighting your friends, family and neighbors, why not go with the flow, be calm, and let things happen as they go?
 

joea

Oshoyoi
Dorje, as someone who has worked with Tibetans and visited Tibet, I am a bit dissapointed that you posted this thread.

His Holiness has often stated that one of his most important commitments is the promotion of inter-religious understanding and harmony. As part of this endeavour, His Holiness is committed to promoting non-sectarianism in all schools of Tibetan Buddhism. Dhogyal is a wrathful diety that is part of a sectarian tradition.

Don't you know that China is trying to undermine your people by promoting this cult? I feel sorry that your people have endured 50 years of sedition, genocide, and subversiveness from the Chinese. You should believe what you want, but when we associate with negativity and bad people we become karmically linked to them, and not in a good way.

We have to do what we can to promote positive thinking. At the end of the day it's all we really have: our thoughts and ourselves. As a part of Tibetan society, you should also recognize that harmony with your friends and family is the glue that holds you together. Instead of fighting your friends, family and neighbors, why not go with the flow, be calm, and let things happen as they go?

Beautiful answer. welcome to RF.
 

Kuvalya_Dharmasindhu

Nondualistic Bhakta
Dorje, as someone who has worked with Tibetans and visited Tibet, I am a bit dissapointed that you posted this thread.

His Holiness has often stated that one of his most important commitments is the promotion of inter-religious understanding and harmony. As part of this endeavour, His Holiness is committed to promoting non-sectarianism in all schools of Tibetan Buddhism. Dhogyal is a wrathful diety that is part of a sectarian tradition.

Don't you know that China is trying to undermine your people by promoting this cult? I feel sorry that your people have endured 50 years of sedition, genocide, and subversiveness from the Chinese. You should believe what you want, but when we associate with negativity and bad people we become karmically linked to them, and not in a good way.

We have to do what we can to promote positive thinking. At the end of the day it's all we really have: our thoughts and ourselves. As a part of Tibetan society, you should also recognize that harmony with your friends and family is the glue that holds you together. Instead of fighting your friends, family and neighbors, why not go with the flow, be calm, and let things happen as they go?

I humbly disagree. While i do agree that His Holiness has pushed for non-sectarianism goals in the past and still does push for them. People should not agree on the basis of blind harmony. If that were the case then no one would enter into debate and the long tradition within all Dharmic faiths would might as well be thrown away. If the Blessed One recognized that type of harmony, he might have never left his fathers palace to lead a spiritual life and the beautiful Buddhist tradition wouldn't exist.

Also, it is interesting that His Holiness, the Dalai Lama, worshipped this protector spirit for around 40 years before doing the "research" about Dorje Shugden. And he is allowing the reincarnation of his junior Root Guru (the one who initiated him in the worship of Dorje Shugden) to continue the practice without consequences. I find two things wrong with this situation:

1. Just as the Awakened One instructed, no Buddhist should accept the practices/beliefs of the Buddha as their own beliefs/practices until they have applied them to their own lives and have found them to work for that specific individual. -- I could argue that this 'rule of thumb' should be extended to apply to even the Dalai Lama's junior Root Guru, thus the Dalai Lama did not follow the words of the Buddha (whom he took refuge in).

2. Why is it that his junior Root Guru can continue the worship of Dorje Shugden when others cannot? This is an unfortunate double standard.

Additionally, PatrickMahoney-ji, i'd like to peacefully point out that there are many protective deities--some are wrathful and some are peaceful. Just because a deity is seen as "wrathful" doesn't make them unvenerable. Nor does it disqualify them as a compassionate being. They are just a wrathful manifestation of a certain quality within the tradition. It is nothing negative.

Absolutly not. I actually like the Dalai Lama, but im a little dissapointed about his views of Dorje Shugden and how he is handling it.

I agree, the Dalai Lama is a beautiful being. The problem lies in how he is handling the situation. And i'm also disappointed. Don't let anyone tell you you shouldn't be especially since you are a Tibetan Buddhist and it directly affects you. As a manifestation of the Bodhisattva of Compassion, he shouldn't be negatively affecting the lives of those who follow this practice, he should find a more constructive way of taking care of the issue.

*Peace To All Beings*
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
There is no double standard involved, because there is no standard.

People vary in their affinities, shortcomings and strengths. It is therefore natural that some practices are constructive for some people, but not for others.

PatrickMahoney is making wrong assumptions in this thread, btw. "Wrathful" deities are not a bad thing in itself, and certainly not a mark of wrathful religions or anything of the sort.

Why exactly there is this controversy, and which side is correct, if any, is largely a matter of faith, so I see little point in jumping in without having personal knowledge.

Unless, of course, some evidence of material action presents itself. But as long as it is only a matter of personal religious practice, it is also an internal matter to be resolved by those who are actually involved, IMO.
 

Kuvalya_Dharmasindhu

Nondualistic Bhakta
There is no double standard involved, because there is no standard.

People vary in their affinities, shortcomings and strengths. It is therefore natural that some practices are constructive for some people, but not for others.

I disagree. I'd humbly like to point out that if you were part of the tradition of the Tibetan Buddhism you'd also be affected and that is why i addressed Dorje-ji. Those who are part of the tradition of Tibetan Buddhism especially those who are part of the Gelugpa sect, are directly affected by the actions the Dalai Lama has taken against those who still practice the Dorje Shugden worship. It is only reluctantly that the Dalai Lama is 'allowing' his former root guru's reincarnation to continue the practice. The His Holiness didn't say "it is because my root guru's reincarnation is a highly advanced being that i will make an exception for him." There are many who are losing their livelihood and even being expelled from the community because they continue this practice. And others have fled to the United States to seek safety. Finally, i'd like to point out that if the His Holiness isn't directly seeking action against these practitioners then i'd hope he is discouraging (in all manners possible) the negative treatment of Dorje Shugden worshipers. Especially, as one who is the manifestation of the Bodhisattva of Compassion.

*Peace to All Beings*
 
I believe one thing that is being forgotten here is what Buddha said about experiance. Buddha said dont accept anything until you have personal experiance of it. The Dalai Lama, supposedly, has had personal experiance that Dorje Shugden is malevolent. But other people have not had this same experiance. There was a Bhikkhu whom the Buddha asked whether he agreed with him or not. The Bhikkhu said he didnt believe. The Buddha said this was good because this means that the Bhikkhu will believe after personal experiance. The Dhamma is to be lived, not to be blindly believed in. It is to be experianced! When the Dalai Lama is going around basically saying that everyone should take his word for it, he is violating that wonderful teaching of personal experiance. And if Dorje Shugden is really bad then people will find out soon enough with their practice, if it is sincere.

Then again im not a Vajrayana Buddhist. So I dont know if anything im saying on this subject really matters.
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
I believe one thing that is being forgotten here is what Buddha said about experiance. Buddha said dont accept anything until you have personal experiance of it. The Dalai Lama, supposedly, has had personal experiance that Dorje Shugden is malevolent. But other people have not had this same experiance. There was a Bhikkhu whom the Buddha asked whether he agreed with him or not. The Bhikkhu said he didnt believe. The Buddha said this was good because this means that the Bhikkhu will believe after personal experiance. The Dhamma is to be lived, not to be blindly believed in. It is to be experianced! When the Dalai Lama is going around basically saying that everyone should take his word for it, he is violating that wonderful teaching of personal experiance. And if Dorje Shugden is really bad then people will find out soon enough with their practice, if it is sincere.

Then again im not a Vajrayana Buddhist. So I dont know if anything im saying on this subject really matters.

I've never heard His Holiness tell people to "take his word for it." I've only heard him suggest that he doesn't believe Dorje Shugden to be a wise practice to engage in, and that it ultimately creates negativity, divisiveness, and ignorance. I've always been told in our lineage that it isn't a good idea, but we're free to do what we want.

I'm also a practitioner within the FPMT, founded by Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa Rinpoche, both who recognize His Holiness the Dalai Lama to be a major part of our lineage and our temporal and spiritual leader. We've never been threatened with anything remotely hurtful, disparaging, or ANYTHING when the Shugden practice has been discussed or suggested.

Personally, I think there's been too much mud-slinging to really offer compassion to both sides. AFAIK, we're all in this together. :rainbow1:
 
I agree with most of what you have said MysticSang'ha. But have you seen whats going on within the exhile tibetan community? People have been exhiled from the exhiled tibetan community and people have also had their info posted on buildings out in the open showing where they live and things like that. People are scared for their lives over in India where tibetans live. It may not be effecting us too much here, but in India where the Tibetans are now, its really not good. Monks are also being kicked out of the monestaries and the Dalai Lama has said that he is for all of the expulsion of monks from the monestaries who worship Shuden. Now, understand please that I have nothing for or agaisnt the Dalai Lama as he doesnt effect me. But how he and the Exhiled Community of Tibet are handleing this is far from correct.
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
I agree with most of what you have said MysticSang'ha. But have you seen whats going on within the exhile tibetan community? People have been exhiled from the exhiled tibetan community and people have also had their info posted on buildings out in the open showing where they live and things like that. People are scared for their lives over in India where tibetans live. It may not be effecting us too much here, but in India where the Tibetans are now, its really not good. Monks are also being kicked out of the monestaries and the Dalai Lama has said that he is for all of the expulsion of monks from the monestaries who worship Shuden. Now, understand please that I have nothing for or agaisnt the Dalai Lama as he doesnt effect me. But how he and the Exhiled Community of Tibet are handleing this is far from correct.

Understand that we hear the opposite propaganda, Upasaka. That those who do not practice Dorje Shugden and who follow His Holiness are being targeted, hurt, outcast, or killed by Shugden practitioners. For all the documentaries and pics and lectures that are brought up as evidence against us, I can easily point out as much evidence against them.

Do you see what I mean? None of this mud-slinging helps. :no:
 
Understand that we hear the opposite propaganda, Upasaka. That those who do not practice Dorje Shugden and who follow His Holiness are being targeted, hurt, outcast, or killed by Shugden practitioners. For all the documentaries and pics and lectures that are brought up as evidence against us, I can easily point out as much evidence against them.

Do you see what I mean? None of this mud-slinging helps. :no:


I know exactly what you mean. And I know that Shugden Practitioners have killed others too in regard to this issue. Both sides are not handleing this well. I guess its ignorant of me to say one is better than the other in this problem because from both side's its appears as if the other side is incorrect. Its all just a matter of view point. BTW, I have also looked at it in more compassionate terms too. If the Dalai Lama really is some incarnation of Avelokiteshvara then he could be doing this out of compassion and wanting to save people from the fall downs of this practice. But, in the end, your right. Boths sides have faults and both sides appear incorrect depending on who's side your on.
 

Chuda

Buddhist
Oh i didnt see that this thread had 2 pages. It's good to see that there is a balanced view on both sides and the discussion is level headed. I see other websites where they become very personal and antagonistic and seriously not what i had thought Buddhists should be. I've posted elsewhere on RF that so far i have found dorjeshugden.com to be the most balanced. They do not allow people to say derogatory things about the Dalai Lama on their forum! It's a fascinating read and gives both sides of the story. I've still got quite a lot to learn.
 
Last edited:

ratikala

Istha gosthi
I believe one thing that is being forgotten here is what Buddha said about experiance. Buddha said dont accept anything until you have personal experiance of it. The Dalai Lama, supposedly, has had personal experiance that Dorje Shugden is malevolent. But other people have not had this same experiance. There was a Bhikkhu whom the Buddha asked whether he agreed with him or not. The Bhikkhu said he didnt believe. The Buddha said this was good because this means that the Bhikkhu will believe after personal experiance. The Dhamma is to be lived, not to be blindly believed in. It is to be experianced! When the Dalai Lama is going around basically saying that everyone should take his word for it, he is violating that wonderful teaching of personal experiance. And if Dorje Shugden is really bad then people will find out soon enough with their practice, if it is sincere.

Then again im not a Vajrayana Buddhist. So I dont know if anything im saying on this subject really matters.

dear akshara ,

as a vajrayana practitioner , I have refrained from comment on this subject for so long for the simple reason that I do not understand how so many people think them selves to be more experienced than the dalai lama ?
 

wisdombeing

Wannabe Wisdom Being
As Vajrayana practitioners, you must know that Guru samaya is crucial to our practice, yet HH the Dalai Lama has said that his teachers were wrong to practise Dorje Shugden. HH Trijang Rinpoche, his junior tutor was wrong. All the great masters who did DS practice are wrong. Many people believe the Dalai Lama is Chenrezig. Would Chenrezig not have known that Dorje Shugden was evil when he first did his practice? Would Chenrezig write a praise to Dorje Shugden if Dorje Shugden was not a Buddha?

The Dalai Lama says that Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit. Why does the Dalai Lama not subdue him then? Isn't it easier to bind him or destroy him so that there will no longer be such danger to people? Is Dorje Shugden more powerful than all the high Lamas?


His Holiness Gaden Trisur Rinpoche Jetsun Lungrik Namgyal who was the 101st Throne Holder of Tsongkapa has officially entered Shar Gaden Monastery and left Gaden Shartse Monastery. He openly practises Dorje Shugden now. Is the supreme head of the Gelugpa tradition wrong too?


Dorje Shugden practitioners in Tibetan refugee camps have been ostracized since the ban on Dorje Shugden practice was implemented in 1996. They are not permitted to buy groceries, their children are not allowed to attend schools and they cannot have travel papers. All because they did not wish to give up their heart practice. This does not seem too Buddhist to me. You can read more about this and watch news coverage at dorjeshugden.com.
 
Top