does bhakti hinduism involve testing?

[nathanielfirst]

Hello, I am fairly new to this forum and I am learning about bhakti hinduism, so I had a few questions to ask the forum members... I know that God in some types of Bhakti will test an adherents devotion to him, when he starts down the bhakti path. my question is, in which types of bhakti is this existant? which ones is it most pronounced in? saiva siddhanta, virashaivism, etc., ?
What does the testing involve? how long would it last? how hard would it be?
and most especially, does it involve ethical testing, as well as testing the devotion to God?

thank you very much.

 

[Onkara]

Welcome Nathnielfirst, pleased to see your post
I have not come across that idea in Vedanta (Hindu Philosophy). It sounds more like Islam, where life is considered a test. However Hindusim is vast so I will wait along side you for my Sanatana Dharma friends to comments. Do you happen to still know where you came across the idea, please?

 

[Satsangi]

Hello, I am fairly new to this forum and I am learning about bhakti hinduism, so I had a few questions to ask the forum members... I know that God in some types of Bhakti will test an adherents devotion to him, when he starts down the bhakti path. my question is, in which types of bhakti is this existant? which ones is it most pronounced in? saiva siddhanta, virashaivism, etc., ?
What does the testing involve? how long would it last? how hard would it be?
and most especially, does it involve ethical testing, as well as testing the devotion to God?

thank you very much.

Who can say what, if or anything He will ever do? Who can predict Him?

Regards,

 

[Metempsychosis]

Welcome to Forums!!!

Hello, I am fairly new to this forum and I am learning about bhakti hinduism, so I had a few questions to ask the forum members... I know that God in some types of Bhakti will test an adherents devotion to him, when he starts down the bhakti path.

There is no one testing others....Your mind is testing you ,nothing else IMHO.

my question is, in which types of bhakti is this existant? which ones is it most pronounced in? saiva siddhanta, virashaivism, etc., ?

The Shaiva traditions do not have that much Bhakti,they attach more importance to Jnana.The Vaishnava traditions are devoted to Bhakti.

What does the testing involve? how long would it last? how hard would it be?
and most especially, does it involve ethical testing, as well as testing the devotion to God?

thank you very much.

This is not something like Alpha and Beta testing that people do with softwares.You remind me of ethical hacking..

 

[Satsangi]

Welcome to Forums!!!


There is no one testing others....Your mind is testing you ,nothing else IMHO.



The Shaiva traditions do not have that much Bhakti,they attach more importance to Jnana.The Vaishnava traditions are devoted to Bhakti.




This is not something like Alpha and Beta testing that people do with softwares.You remind me of ethical hacking..

The Shaiva traditons also have Bhakti; I beg to differ, and it is widespread. The Shivaratri celebration recently is proof to that. But Jnana alone is emphasized among some Shaivas; Jnana alone is not emphasized in the Vaishnavas although it is important.

There has been testing of many devotees in the the stories of the Puranas, hence not entirely out of place to raise that question. But, there is no "set formula" for it.

Regards,

 

[Onkara]

What about getting the puja right, such as pronuciation of sanskrit and ritual. Is this considered a test or a way of qualifying yourself for reward? Forgive my very limited understanding of bhakti.

Does one have to worship to have something in return, for example can Mahalakshmi be worshiped without requiring weath etc?

God tested Abraham by the way. Kirkegaard wrote a philosophy based on it. Personally I found it to be self-indulgent pesimism and would recommend one stays away from the idea of being tested.

 

[Riverwolf]

Hello, I am fairly new to this forum and I am learning about bhakti hinduism, so I had a few questions to ask the forum members... I know that God in some types of Bhakti will test an adherents devotion to him, when he starts down the bhakti path. my question is, in which types of bhakti is this existant? which ones is it most pronounced in? saiva siddhanta, virashaivism, etc., ?
What does the testing involve? how long would it last? how hard would it be?
and most especially, does it involve ethical testing, as well as testing the devotion to God?

thank you very much.

Well, I don't know of any "testing" in any of the Bhakti sects, and I don't remember reading of any "testing" in Sri Subramuniya's works, nor any in Sri Prabhupada's works.

 

[Satsangi]

What about getting the puja right, such as pronuciation of sanskrit and ritual. Is this considered a test or a way of qualifying yourself for reward? Forgive my very limited understanding of bhakti.

Does one have to worship to have something in return, for example can Mahalakshmi be worshiped without requiring weath etc?

God tested Abraham by the way. Kirkegaard wrote a philosophy based on it. Personally I found it to be self-indulgent pesimism and would recommend one stays away from the idea of being tested.

Although there are rituals to be followed in certain Puja, they are neither a test nor a way of qualifying. Worship without expectations for anything in return is the BEST that can be; that is the goal.

Here, we are talking about if the God "tests" the devotee about the depth of his love for Him. God knows that, but it is just to show the devotee his areas of improvement. There are certain stories to that affect in the Scriptures when the devotee has been "tested" by the God. But , there is no "formula" as to who would be tested or with what or when.

Regards,

 

[nathanielfirst]

There are certain stories to that affect in the Scriptures when the devotee has been "tested" by the God. But , there is no "formula" as to who would be tested or with what or when.

Regards,

would you happen to know which stories, which scriptures? much thanks, btw

 

[nathanielfirst]

"Do you happen to still know where you came across the idea, please?" - I am actually not certain but I did read it somewhere fairly authoritative, it was more, God would test a bhakti devotee, his DEVOTION to God
so i see that bhakti involves testing... would it involve ETHICAL testing, is what i am trying to find. Or are there many stories in the vast hindu scriptures about God, a God, the God, Shiva, Vishnu, Brahma, Varuna, Indra, Anyone, testing a person, people, to see if they will pass, or fail.
these guys make refernces to puranas so I must be sorta right somewhere

There has been testing of many devotees in the the stories of the Puranas, hence not entirely out of place to raise that question. But, there is no "set formula" for it.
Regards,

whcih ones, please?

 

[Madhuri]

Testing isn't a big part of our religion. I do remember being told that the guru will test his disciples, generally those very dedicated ones. There are certainly stories where Krishna or an avatar will test a close devotee or companion. I think that in these cases a test has the purpose of teaching some principle or philosophy. I would say that the Bhagavad Gita is a great example with Arjuna being put to test.

 

[Satsangi]

would you happen to know which stories, which scriptures? much thanks, btw

Testing of Prahalad by Narsinha Avatar is one example and another is testing of King Bali by Vaman Avatar. Source is Srimad Bhagvatam Purana.

Regards,

 

[Onkara]

Testing isn't a big part of our religion. I do remember being told that the guru will test his disciples, generally those very dedicated ones. There are certainly stories where Krishna or an avatar will test a close devotee or companion. I think that in these cases a test has the purpose of teaching some principle or philosophy. I would say that the Bhagavad Gita is a great example with Arjuna being put to test.

Those are good points, Madhuri
It is almost so when a person does evil and is punished, one may ask why did the all knowing Krishna who resides in the heart of every being, allow or actually do that evil?

I think it is like there is another force acting on a person's mind, causing them to do evil things. This force needs to be overcome, that is the purpose of life and with it the union of love with Krishna. We can turn this and say those who love Krishna do not committ sin willingly.

As for what that other force is and how to overcome it, that makes a fascinating topic for me

 

[Satsangi]

Those are good points, Madhuri
It is almost so when a person does evil and is punished, one may ask why did the all knowing Krishna who resides in the heart of every being, allow or actually do that evil?

I think it is like there is another force acting on a person's mind, causing them to do evil things. This force needs to be overcome, that is the purpose of life and with it the union of love with Krishna. We can turn this and say those who love Krishna do not committ sin willingly.

As for what that other force is and how to overcome it, that makes a fascinating topic for me

Friend Onkarah,

The answer is in the Karma theory. It is not the Jeeva that does the Kriyamaan Karma; Krishna is the force that provides the "base" on which any Karma is done. He will not interfere normally although He can. Good or bad are both mind products in the end and are inherently the reason for rebirths. We do good Karmas not to gain anything but just because He wants us to do good Karmas (Nishkaam Karma)

Regards,

 

[zenzero]

Friend Satsangi,

The answer is in the Karma theory. It is not the Jeeva that does the Kriyamaan Karma; Krishna is the force that provides the "base" on which any Karma is done. He will not interfere normally although He can. Good or bad are both mind products in the end and are inherently the reason for rebirths. We do good Karmas not to gain anything but just because He wants us to do good Karmas (Nishkaam Karma)

Well stated; however like to add that each individual is tested when he does his karma as because if the karma is a response to a desire it will lead the individual more towards THAT desire with no peace of mind whereas those who act without desires [nishkaam] will neither have any possessions nor be possessed and so is tested at all times.

Love & rgds

 

[nathanielfirst]

Regards,[/quote]
that's exellent! tell me, where did you learn that ,

He will not interfere normally although He can

- are there cases of such in scripture? where is a good place, a good writing, to learn about karma theory more uin depth?
-nathan

 

[zenzero]

Friend natanielfirst,

Welcome to RF!
Best Wishes.

Love & rgds

 

[Satsangi]

Regards,

that's exellent! tell me, where did you learn that , - are there cases of such in scripture? where is a good place, a good writing, to learn about karma theory more uin depth?
-nathan[/quote]

Welcome to RF Nathaniel. I have learnt about Karma theory from the book in my language and I do not think an English translation of it is available. But if u serach over the web, I am sure u will find some "short and sweet" book.

The example of Lord changing the Karmas are plenty.... Lord Krishna giving the same Mukti to Putna like that of His mother Yashoda, liberation of Kansa inspite of all bad deeds ......could go on and on....

Regards,