Does culture and standards of the time affect morality?

[ZooGirl02]

Hey everyone. I have been talking in the past about the prophet of Islam, Muhammad, and how I believe he engaged in pedophilia with Aisha. He married Aisha when she was 7 or 9 and consummated the marriage within only a couple of years. Muhammad was around 40 or 50 years old at the time. To me, that seems like pedophilia.

Well, many Muslims have tried to justify this by saying that according to their culture and time, it was perfectly acceptable because childhood marriage was common and accepted back then. Well, it's true that it was common and accepted back then but in my opinion that does not make it morally correct in my eyes. During Nazi Germany it was common and accepted that Nazism and elimination of the Jewish people was justified but that does not make it morally correct.

So, what do you believe?

 

[seeking4truth]

In public yes, a lot. In private, less so.

 

[seeking4truth]

Hey everyone. I have been talking in the past about the prophet of Islam, Muhammad, and how I believe he engaged in pedophilia with Aisha. He married Aisha when she was 7 or 9 and consummated the marriage within only a couple of years. So, what do you believe?

I haven't seen your evidence for this. Please can you explain it?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I believe you're on a witch hunt.

 

[Revoltingest]

So, what do you believe?

That morality is a personal perspective. It depends upon culture, location, place in history, the individual, & the frequency of one's personal morality, which plays a role in determining that of the group. So it isn't for me to say what is absolutely moral or immoral for others far away & long ago. But I can disagree with them. As for Aisha & her husband, the fog of history has me questioning what actually happened.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy is often a good place to start.

 

[ZooGirl02]

I haven't seen your evidence for this. Please can you explain it?

See this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha#Marriage_to_Muhammad

I believe you're on a witch hunt.

Why do you think that? I am only trying to discover whether or not Islam is true and therefore I am being skeptical about its claims. I have heard the justification for Aisha's marriage to Muhammad at such an early age that it was because the culture and moral beliefs of the time and place thought there was nothing wrong with it. I am skeptical as to whether or not a culture and place's moral beliefs have any real impact on true morality. In my opinion, morality does not change. It always remains the same throughout all time.

So anyway, I'm sorry I offended you. It was not my intent to offend anyone. I'm just trying to approach Islam's claims with a skeptical and critical view. I don't want to believe their claims without substantiating them. I don't want to be gullible.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Morality is subjective to time and place. Muhammad's marriage was considered acceptable at the time, as were many things we now consider immoral.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I am only trying to discover whether or not Islam is true and therefore I am being skeptical about its claims.

Rubbish.

So anyway, I'm sorry I offended you.

What can I say; I find Islamophobia offensive and oft times petty.

But let's get back to your (presumably sincere) intellectual quest concerning the relationship between morality and culture. What did you think about the Stanford article?

 

[ZooGirl02]

Morality is subjective to time and place. Muhammad's marriage was considered acceptable at the time, as were many things we now consider immoral.

Yeah I understand that it was considered acceptable at the time. But just because it was considered acceptable at the time does not make it acceptable in reality, right? I mean, wouldn't true morality never change? For example, in Nazi Germany many Germans felt it was perfectly fine to try and eliminate Jewish people. However, we know that in reality that is horrific and completely immoral. So just because a certain people in a certain time believe something is right doesn't necessarily make it right. That's what I am saying. What do you think? Anyway, that's where my beliefs stand at this time.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Yeah I understand that it was considered acceptable at the time. But just because it was considered acceptable at the time does not make it acceptable in reality, right? I mean, wouldn't true morality never change? For example, in Nazi Germany many Germans felt it was perfectly fine to try and eliminate Jewish people. However, we know that in reality that is horrific and completely immoral. So just because a certain people in a certain time believe something is right doesn't necessarily make it right. That's what I am saying. What do you think? Anyway, that's where my beliefs stand at this time.

"True morality"

Ain't that cute. There can be no "true morality" without absolute oughts and, as a non-theist, that concept doesn't apply.

 

[ZooGirl02]

"True morality"

Ain't that cute. There can be no "true morality" without absolute oughts and, as a non-theist, that concept doesn't apply.

Okay. So would you say that morality really does change with time and culture then?

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Okay. So would you say that morality really does change with time and culture then?

Of course, but there is never any true right regardless of time or place.

 

[Altfish]

FGM is considered acceptable in some cultures today...does that make it right?

 

[Thana]

Hey everyone. I have been talking in the past about the prophet of Islam, Muhammad, and how I believe he engaged in pedophilia with Aisha. He married Aisha when she was 7 or 9 and consummated the marriage within only a couple of years. Muhammad was around 40 or 50 years old at the time. To me, that seems like pedophilia.

Well, many Muslims have tried to justify this by saying that according to their culture and time, it was perfectly acceptable because childhood marriage was common and accepted back then. Well, it's true that it was common and accepted back then but in my opinion that does not make it morally correct in my eyes. During Nazi Germany it was common and accepted that Nazism and elimination of the Jewish people was justified but that does not make it morally correct.

So, what do you believe?

Yeah, Morality is not something we just have. It has a lot to do with culture and location.

I was watching a documentary on Kyrgyzstan, Where, According to their tradition, They kidnap women off the street and force them into marriage. Anyway, We watched as this one woman was picked up off the street by a bunch of guys and taken to get married to one of them. They pull her out of the van, And she's screaming and crying and begging for her mother while there's a crowd around her cheering and smiling.

It was awful to watch, But I asked myself, If I grew up there, Would I be one of those people smiling and cheering? Unfortunately, The answer is most likely yes.

 

[LuisDantas]

Hey everyone. I have been talking in the past about the prophet of Islam, Muhammad, and how I believe he engaged in pedophilia with Aisha. He married Aisha when she was 7 or 9 and consummated the marriage within only a couple of years. Muhammad was around 40 or 50 years old at the time. To me, that seems like pedophilia.

Hard to tell. We have no true way of knowing whether there was consumation. For all we know it was just stated to be the case in order to protect Aisha's legal rights or to keep her away from others.

It all comes down to how much one wants to trust the behavior of Muhammad, IMO. Reports of the time are unavoidably unreliable.

Nor do I expect the early Muslims to actually say that Muhammad was a pedophile, even if it happened to be true. It would take some nerve!


As for the question that you use for the title of this thread:

Does culture and standards of the time affect morality?

Yes, they do and they must. Morality is definitely influenced by what choices people actually have, which by their turn are conditioned if not determined outright by the possibilities accepted by culture and made possible by the time. Scientific knowledge, technology, social and economic reality all influence morality, as they should.

 

[ZooGirl02]

FGM is considered acceptable in some cultures today...does that make it right?

In my opinion, it does not make it right.

Yeah, Morality is not something we just have. It has a lot to do with culture and location.

I was watching a documentary on Kyrgyzstan, Where, According to their tradition, They kidnap women off the street and force them into marriage. Anyway, We watched as this one woman was picked up off the street by a bunch of guys and taken to get married to one of them. They pull her out of the van, And she's screaming and crying and begging for her mother while there's a crowd around her cheering and smiling.

It was awful to watch, But I asked myself, If I grew up there, Would I be one of those people smiling and cheering? Unfortunately, The answer is most likely yes.

In my opinion, that is gravely immoral.

That said, maybe rather than using the term "true morality" I should say "objective morality". Just because a particular culture thinks its right to do something does not mean it is objectively moral, right?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

For example, in Nazi Germany many Germans felt it was perfectly fine to try and eliminate Jewish people.

I love it when people try to bend the Shoah to their own agenda.

What do you think about the Stanford article and normative use? How might this apply to Europe (or even Germany) in the late 30's?

 

[metis]

When we are born, we quickly learn that if we are treated with loving kindness, it feels good; but if we're not, it feels bad. Unfortunately, we all too often forget that basic understanding because we let other things get in the way.

 

[ZooGirl02]

I love it when people try to bend the Shoah to their own agenda.

What do you think about the Stanford article and normative use? How might this apply to Europe (or even Germany) in the late 30's?

I'm sorry. I don't really have time to read the article right now. If you could, please sum up the part(s) you want me to read. Please don't use a lot of philosophical language though because I am not very smart.

Anyway, I am sorry but I am not trying to bend the Shoah/Holocaust to my own agenda. I apologize if you interpreted me that way. I was just trying to give an example. Would you prefer that I use a different example of how moral values can change from one culture and time to another but yet still be wrong?