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Does DNA prove intelligent design?

sandor606

epistemologist
It was just idle curiosity. I am guessing that either you don't have a biology degree, or you have a degree from a university that hands out degrees to people who can quote notoriously inaccurate and misleading creationist textbooks like "Of Pandas and People". I didn't know such universities existed.



See, that's why it seems likely you don't actually have a degree in any scientific field, let alone biology. Science doesn't prove things. Even I know that, and I have a degree in jack squat.

I can't help noticing that, apart from the notoriously inaccurate and misleading creationist grade school biology text book, you have ONLY cited popular science (pop-sci) writers. Chalk that up as another thing that causes me to doubt you have ever studied biology at university level.



Aw, jeez, do you really want to get into a book reading ******* contest? Really? With a woman who has read over a hundred books a year for 30 years, on every topic under the sun? Would I quote from one of them? Why would I need to? I make my own thoughts. Besides, painted wolf is an actual biology student in a real university studying for a real biology degree, so I will defer to her superior understanding of the subject. As should you.

You ***-u-me about my degree, but no matter. Moreover, this is not a contest but a quest for truth and you may think of me what you wish. You know the saying: Opinions are like belly buttons; everybody has one and they are useless. All you have to do is post the title of one/two books written by scientists in the field. If, however, you claim that science does not prove things, then I don't know how we can continue this dicussion, especially if your degree is in jack squat, which is about the amount of knowledge you have proven to have on this subject.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
If you think so little of a 706-page book chuck full of math just because it's not a text book then please, by all means, share with us the one book that is a text book and offers scientific proof that debunks what I offered. So far you have offered absolutely nothing in the way of scientific proof that contradics what I have posted except unsubstantiated subjective opinions which are infinitely less convincing than the opinions of the scientists I quoted.

So, your criteria for a well-respected and believed book is just that it has to be long and contain a lot of math? :areyoucra

The point is that the universe is as it is because that's the way it is. Life could still exist, as well as planets and all kinds of other things, if some variations in certain things were the case, but we'll never know. There is no reason to believe that some things about the universe couldn't be changed and still retain a working universe. The universe might be different, but might be functionally equivalent.

Take you, for instance. There were so many things that had to go an exact way to have you here now. Not one of those things could have been different and still have yielded you as you are now. However, many of them could have been different, and there would still be you, just slightly different. The same way something could be changed about the universe and we'd still have a working universe, it would just be a bit different than the one we know.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
If you think so little of a 706-page book chuck full of math just because it's not a text book then please, by all means, share with us the one book that is a text book and offers scientific proof that debunks what I offered. So far you have offered absolutely nothing in the way of scientific proof that contradics what I have posted except unsubstantiated subjective opinions which are infinitely less convincing than the opinions of the scientists I quoted.
Amazon.com: Physics: John D. Cutnell, Kenneth W. Johnson: Books

these are a few texts that I own and have read.
Amazon.com: Biology: Neil A. Campbell, Jane B. Reece: Books
Amazon.com: Evolutionary Analysis: Scott Freeman, Jon C. Herron: Books
Amazon.com: Vertebrates: Comparative Anatomy, Function, Evolution 4th Edition: Kenneth Kardong: Books
Amazon.com: Biology of the Invertebrates: Jan Pechenik: Books
Amazon.com: Introduction to Genetic Analysis (Introduction to Genetic Analysis (Griffiths)): Anthony J.F. Griffiths, Susan R. Wessler, Richard C. Lewontin, Sean B. Carroll: Books

Some that I have read for fun... (weird I know)
Amazon.com: Vertebrate Palaeontology: Michael J. Benton: Books
Amazon.com: The Dinosauria: David B. Weishampel, Peter Dodson, Halszka Osmólska: Books
Amazon.com: The Evolution and Extinction of the Dinosaurs: David E. Fastovsky, David B. Weishampel, John Sibbick: Books
Amazon.com: Encyclopedia of Dinosaurs: Philip J. Currie, Kevin Padian: Books
Amazon.com: Mesozoic Birds: Above the Heads of Dinosaurs: Luis M. Chiappe, Lawrence M. Witmer: Books
Amazon.com: Early Vertebrates (Oxford Monographs on Geology and Geophysics, 33): Philippe Janvier: Books

I won't add the popular science books... but I could list a scad of good ones. Indeed I could go on and on for a very long time about my reading habits.

wa:do
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
sandor... what exactly does life need?

Gravity?
Sunlight?
Oxygen?
how about temperature range.... can life exist in the ice? In boiling hot water? How about in acid?
How fragile do you think life is?

wa:do

ps. I'm curious what text books in biology you have used. Surely the Campbell/Reece book is near ubiquitous.
 
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Alceste

Vagabond
You ***-u-me about my degree, but no matter. Moreover, this is not a contest but a quest for truth and you may think of me what you wish. You know the saying: Opinions are like belly buttons; everybody has one and they are useless. All you have to do is post the title of one/two books written by scientists in the field. If, however, you claim that science does not prove things, then I don't know how we can continue this dicussion, especially if your degree is in jack squat, which is about the amount of knowledge you have proven to have on this subject.

OK, fine - within the past year:

At Home in the Universe (Stuart Kauffman), Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History (Stephen J Gould), and a Short History of Nearly Everything (Bill Bryson).

Happy now?

I'm perfectly content to admit that even after reading three pop-sci books I know very little about evolutionary biology. Obviously I know a great deal more than you, but I know hardly anything compared to Painted Wolf.

Can you give me an example of one thing science has "proven"? I suspect you might be confusing science with mathematics. This seems likely if your measure of scientific credibility is how much math can be squeezed into a 706 page book.
 

sandor606

epistemologist
So, your criteria for a well-respected and believed book is just that it has to be long and contain a lot of math? :areyoucra

The point is that the universe is as it is because that's the way it is. Life could still exist, as well as planets and all kinds of other things, if some variations in certain things were the case, but we'll never know. There is no reason to believe that some things about the universe couldn't be changed and still retain a working universe. The universe might be different, but might be functionally equivalent.

Take you, for instance. There were so many things that had to go an exact way to have you here now. Not one of those things could have been different and still have yielded you as you are now. However, many of them could have been different, and there would still be you, just slightly different. The same way something could be changed about the universe and we'd still have a working universe, it would just be a bit different than the one we know.

Yes, I think very highly of a book written by scientists with the highest academic credentials that is thorough (hence long) and supports its claims with math. That is one of the first things I learned in college: when writing a paper to choose the sources that support my claim(s) carefully, giving priority to those authored by experts in the field with proven academic credentials.

Your statement that the Universe is the way it is because it's the way it is is a tautology and therefore nonsense. Science goes much deeper and asks why, and so do I.

I am not the subject of this discussion.
 
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sandor606

epistemologist
OK, fine - within the past year:

At Home in the Universe (Stuart Kauffman), Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History (Stephen J Gould), and a Short History of Nearly Everything (Bill Bryson).

Happy now?

I'm perfectly content to admit that even after reading three pop-sci books I know very little about evolutionary biology. Obviously I know a great deal more than you, but I know hardly anything compared to Painted Wolf.

Can you give me an example of one thing science has "proven"? I suspect you might be confusing science with mathematics. This seems likely if your measure of scientific credibility is how much math can be squeezed into a 706 page book.

I am happy though not completely, but I will be if you quote from them so I can comment. I have shown in my posts that I do understand evolutionary biology but if you are of the opinion that I do not then prove that what I wrote was incorrect, not by giving your subjective opinion but with scientific evidence from your sources, the only kind I am interested in.

Examples of natural phenomena that science has proven:
E=mc2 (Albert Einstein)
DNA is a double helix that contains a code. (Watson and Crick)
The quantum of action h is a constant. (Max Planck)
............
...........
The list is endless.
 

sandor606

epistemologist
sandor... what exactly does life need?

Gravity?
Sunlight?
Oxygen?
how about temperature range.... can life exist in the ice? In boiling hot water? How about in acid?
How fragile do you think life is?

wa:do

ps. I'm curious what text books in biology you have used. Surely the Campbell/Reece book is near ubiquitous.

You are asking questions that are not germaine to the discussion so I will not answer.
I don't have the biology books anymore (because they are dated), but I have kept Lehninger, Nelson, and Cox's "Principles of Biochemistry" which is still one of the favorite university basic biochemistry textbooks.
 

sandor606

epistemologist

Do the books you have read on evolutionary biology answer the question of whether DNA proves intelligent design? Can you quote from any of them?
 

Alceste

Vagabond
I am happy though not completely, but I will be if you quote from them so I can comment. I have shown in my posts that I do understand evolutionary biology but if you are of the opinion that I do not then prove that what I wrote was incorrect, not by giving your subjective opinion but with scientific evidence from your sources, the only kind I am interested in.

What is it with you and quoting things? Are you not able to make your own thoughts, and so you think nobody else should either?

Try google books. Duplicating material that is already online is a waste of server space.

I don't need any "scientific evidence" to make a logical argument. You claimed that if even the tiniest thing had gone differently at any point from the beginning of time until now, there would be no universe, and no life. Many people have pointed out that you can't actually know this, and even one of your own sources in one of your own quotes (Hawking) disagrees with you.

If you are only interested in "scientific evidence", why are you reading discredited creationist propaganda like the Panda's Thumb?

Examples of natural phenomena that science has proven:
E=mc2 (Albert Einstein) etc.

Yeah, we call that the theory of relativity. I think we have different definitions of proof. Science doesn't "prove" things, it describes, explains, and predicts things. The best descriptions and most effective predictors are kept while the worst (like Intelligent Design) are discarded.
 

sandor606

epistemologist
What is it with you and quoting things? Are you not able to make your own thoughts, and so you think nobody else should either?

Try google books. Duplicating material that is already online is a waste of server space.

I don't need any "scientific evidence" to make a logical argument. You claimed that if even the tiniest thing had gone differently at any point from the beginning of time until now, there would be no universe, and no life. Many people have pointed out that you can't actually know this, and even one of your own sources in one of your own quotes (Hawking) disagrees with you.

If you are only interested in "scientific evidence", why are you reading discredited creationist propaganda like the Panda's Thumb?



Yeah, we call that the theory of relativity. I think we have different definitions of proof. Science doesn't "prove" things, it describes, explains, and predicts things. The best descriptions and most effective predictors are kept while the worst (like Intelligent Design) are discarded.

The logic of the argument is entirely mine but I support the thoughts/claims therein with EVIDENCE; that's the scientific way. Science "describes, explains, and predicts things" based on EVIDENCE. Evidence/proof is used in a number of areas, including police work, medicine, and law. Description, explanation and prediction without proof is NOT science, it's useless subjective opinion.

science (def.): systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.

The purpose of observation and experimentation - as well as mathematical deduction - is to gather the facts which are proof that the material or physical world that is observed or experimented on is "in fact" so. The theory of special relativity is accepted as true by scientists because Einstein did not dream it up overnight but proved its veracity with evidence.

When was Pandas' Thumb discredited and by whom? Please offer proof of your claim or it's just another of your subjective, personal opinions - which, as we know, are a dime a dozen.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
You are asking questions that are not germaine to the discussion so I will not answer.
Actually they are quite relevant to this discussion... you say that life needs certain constants to exist... I want to know what some of those are.

Gravity?
Sunlight?
Oxygen?
how about temperature range.... can life exist in the ice? In boiling hot water? How about in acid?
How fragile do you think life is?
so please do answer... according to the anthropic principle we should need all these things to have life yes?

wa:do
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Do the books you have read on evolutionary biology answer the question of whether DNA proves intelligent design? Can you quote from any of them?
Evolutionary Analysis (4th ed) chapter 17 goes into this quite a bit...
I'd have to quote the whole chapter and that would be a waste of time and questionably legal.
However they discuss the experimental evidence of producing protocells and the basic building blocks of life out of simple chemistry...
Including self replicating RNA (first done by Mills, Pterson and Spiegelman in 1967) showing that RNA can evolve and self catalyze and therefore act as the precursor molecule for DNA and thus modern 'life'.

In case you were wondering... chapters 2.4 and 3.7 go into science and religion and ID and creationism respectively... The rest of the book is just a very in depth review of the evidence for evolution and the various models of the mechanisms at work.

Naturally most of the book Introduction to Genetic Analysis (9th ed) is about the natural function and nature of DNA and genes and their evolution.
Chapter 19 in particular goes into evolutionary genetics.
They also talk a great deal about viruses and their genetics... so we talk about non-living things too.
Frankly Genetics is an upper level class and they generally assume that you already know about evolution... genetics is after all a more intensive study of evolution in the organismal scale.

Campbell and Reece in Biology (7th ed) discuss the natural nature of life in chapters 1-5 and again in chapters 22-26...
page 89 goes into the emergent properties in the chemistry of life specifically...
It's a beautiful beast of a book... 1231 pages without counting the appendices, credits, glossary and index.

The other textbooks generally assume that the upper level student has a competent grasp of biology and only discusses evolution in the context of the systems involved.

wa:do

ps. Panda's was ruled pseudoscience during Kitzmiller v. Dover.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Yes, I think very highly of a book written by scientists with the highest academic credentials that is thorough (hence long) and supports its claims with math.

Ah, that's not what you said, though. You brought up the length and use of math as if those things in and of themselves made the book respectable.

Your statement that the Universe is the way it is because it's the way it is is a tautology and therefore nonsense.

Right, which is why you saying it doesn't do anything. The universe is the way it is. That's not going to change. Whether or not it could be slightly different and still be similar is not within the scope of science or people.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
When was Pandas' Thumb discredited and by whom? Please offer proof of your claim or it's just another of your subjective, personal opinions - which, as we know, are a dime a dozen.

Sorry, I meant "Of Pandas and People", (your book). Panda's Thumb hasn't been discredited, of course, since it was written by a respected biologist and not a creationist propaganda outfit.

When was it discredited? Are you serious? It was discredited in a court of law, in a famous case, after months of presentation of evidence from both sides, by a judge who ruled that it is not science, but religion pretending (badly) to be science in order to get around the Constitutional prohibition against the government imposing a state religion on the citizens of the US.

On December 20, 2005, the US District Court ruled that intelligent design is not science and is essentially religious in nature and the board's requirement endorsing intelligent design as an alternative to evolution in science classes unconstitutional on the grounds that its inclusion violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.
The judge in the Dover trial specifically referred to Pandas in his decision, stating:

“ As Plaintiffs meticulously and effectively presented to the Court, Pandas went through many drafts, several of which were completed prior to and some after the Supreme Court's decision in Edwards, which held that the Constitution forbids teaching creationism as science. By comparing the pre and post Edwards drafts of Pandas, three astonishing points emerge: (1) the definition for creation science in early drafts is identical to the definition of ID; (2) cognates of the word creation (creationism and creationist), which appeared approximately 150 times, were deliberately and systematically replaced with the phrase ID; and (3) the changes occurred shortly after the Supreme Court held that creation science is religious and cannot be taught in public school science classes in Edwards. This word substitution is telling, significant, and reveals that a purposeful change of words was effected without any corresponding change in content .... The weight of the evidence clearly demonstrates, as noted, that the systemic change from “creation” to “intelligent design” occurred sometime in 1987, after the Supreme Court’s important Edwards decision."
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
I am of the view that DNA is a good example of intelligent design. DNA molecules contain an actual language, like a software program greater than any man has been able to create.”
The thing about this is that it's our own intelligence that has assigned symbols to the language, "program" to the "software". As far as it's been defined, it's not greater than we've been able to create, it's exactly equal to what we've been able to create.
 

sandor606

epistemologist
Actually they are quite relevant to this discussion... you say that life needs certain constants to exist... I want to know what some of those are.


so please do answer... according to the anthropic principle we should need all these things to have life yes?

wa:do

I said that some scientists claim that the values of the constants of physics must be just what they are in order for the Universe and life to exist and provided some sources that support their assertions. I don't know the answers to your questions, I have not thought about them and I am not going to speculate, so I will not answer.
 

sandor606

epistemologist
Sorry, I meant "Of Pandas and People", (your book). Panda's Thumb hasn't been discredited, of course, since it was written by a respected biologist and not a creationist propaganda outfit.

When was it discredited? Are you serious? It was discredited in a court of law, in a famous case, after months of presentation of evidence from both sides, by a judge who ruled that it is not science, but religion pretending (badly) to be science in order to get around the Constitutional prohibition against the government imposing a state religion on the citizens of the US.

Judges are NOT scientists. Court cases are argued by lawyers, not scientists (scientists act as expert witnesses), and have been lost before only to be reversed years later when new justices became members, so a legal opinion is NOT a scientific opinion. While many scientists reject ID, many more support it, regardless of any legal opinion. This is the situation at the present time.
 
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painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
I said that some scientists claim that the values of the constants of physics must be just what they are in order for the Universe and life to exist and provided some sources that support their assertions. I don't know the answers to your questions, I have not thought about them and I am not going to speculate, so I will not answer.
Well, as a biologist I suggest you ponder them.
They are rather basic assumptions most people have about life.
You may come to appreciate just how diversely weird and chemically stable life is.

wa:do
 

Nepenthe

Tu Stultus Es
Judges are NOT scientists. Court cases are argued by lawyers, not scientists (scientists act as expert witnesses), and have been lost before only to be reversed years later when new justices became members, so a legal opinion is NOT a scientific opinion. While many scientists reject ID, many more support it, regardless of any legal opinion. This is the situation at the present time.
Of Pandas and People is considered creationist propoganda by biologists because, well, because it is creationist propoganda. Here's some solid critiques of the book here, and more critiques by zoologist Frank Sonleitner. Of Pandas' is laughably bad, and a 1st year undergrad could tear it apart with a basic understanding of biology, paleontology or anthropology.
 
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