Does Ecclesiastes 9:5 support the Jehovah's Witness view of the afterlife?

[kjw47]

Great response, Deeje.

The fact that death is the opposite of life, is made in the contrast given at @ Roman 6:23.

Plus, everlasting life is a "gift", not a punishment.....which indeed it would be, if suffering in fire is understood to be literal!

Yes and in the parable of the rich man and Lazerus = symbolism as well. If one could look down and see a loved one suffering, how could they find happiness? They couldn't. How could it be a paradise if one weren't happy? It couldn't--Eternal suffering = symbolism for the value lost by each thrown into the lake of fire( destruction) That value is-Eternally cut off from Gods love. As each new day dawns in Gods kingdom( paradise) those in the lake of fire, miss each day. it never ends=likened to be eternal suffering. Only a unjust sadist could create eternal suffering. God is love. Its terrible, they do not know him-John 15:20-21

 

[allright]

Rev 20:10 The devil was cast into the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever.

The beast and the false prophet are humans

 

[The Anointed]

Great response, Deeje.

The fact that death is the opposite of life, is made in the contrast given at @ Roman 6:23.

Plus, everlasting life is a "gift", not a punishment.....which indeed it would be, if suffering in fire is understood to be literal!

The bodies of all those who have been murdered are dead [no longer living] But those murderers were unable to destroy the soul or the mind/spirit which was imprinted into the soul.

Only God can divide the mind from the soul [Which is the second death] in the refining fires of physical life, where the soul will be given a new body and a new mind. For all souls are prepared to eternity.

 

[The Anointed]

The Apostle Paul.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17....."But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who have died, so that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have died. 15 For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died. 16 For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call and with the sound of God’s trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever."



NASB..."The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many."

Mounce Interlinear..."the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised.
53 ·After his resurrection they came out of the tombs· and entered the holy city and appeared to many."

YLT....."and the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who have fallen asleep, arose,

53 and having come forth out of the tombs after his rising, they went into the holy city, and appeared to many."

Had it been the big deal that you are imagining it was, then it would have been included by the other Bible writers...they are silent.


So tell me what happened to those saints.....? Where did they go? Why is this not mentioned by the other gospel writers? This would have been a monumental event and yet no one but Matthew said anything about it. The saints were to be raised to heaven....so what's wrong with this picture? If you expect that the dead will be reunited with their old bodies, then where are these "saints" now?

Paul clearly speaks about the "coming of the Lord" and that those who are "dead in Christ" (the chosen ones) would hear his call and then rise...the "first" ones to do so. There can only be one "first".

1 Cor 15:42-45.....
"So it is with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised up in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised up in power. 44 It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit."

The first resurrection is spiritual, not fleshly. There would be no fleshly bodies walking around.



It is addressed to those with "the heavenly calling" meaning that not everyone had the calling. Not all Christians are heaven bound.



I actually have very little time for the KJV. It is not a translation I ever use, so I don't know where you got that idea.

Why do you attempt to make a small, vague story into a big one? The "first resurrection" does not take place until Christ's presence as King of God's Kingdom.

Deeje wrote....... The Apostle Paul.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17....."But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who have died, so that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have died. 15 For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died. 16 For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call and with the sound of God’s trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever."

Deeje wrote....... NASB..."The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many."

Mounce Interlinear..."the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised.
53 ·After his resurrection they came out of the tombs· and entered the holy city and appeared to many."

YLT....."and the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who have fallen asleep, arose,

53 and having come forth out of the tombs after his rising, they went into the holy city, and appeared to many."

Had it been the big deal that you are imagining it was, then it would have been included by the other Bible writers...they are silent.

The Anointed………Matthew Speaks of the wise men who had seen the heavenly sign that had heralded the birth of Jesus almost two years previously, and who came looking for the future king saying; “Where is he who HAS BEEN BORN [past tense] king of the Jews.”

Had it been such a big deal, then it would have been included by the other Bible writers...But they are silent on this issue, WHY?

Luke speaks of the child Jesus confounding the Jewish teachers in the temple with his knowledge of Scripture.

Had it been such a big deal, then it would have been included by the other Bible writers...But they are silent on this issue, WHY?

John speaks of the woman caught in Adultery.

Had it been such a big deal, then it would have been included by the other Bible writers...But they are silent on this issue, WHY?

Deeje wrote....... So tell me what happened to those saints.....? Where did they go?

The Anointed....... They went into the city and showed themselves to many.

Deeje wrote...…. Why is this not mentioned by the other gospel writers? This would have been a monumental event and yet no one but Matthew said anything about it. The saints were to be raised to heaven....so what's wrong with this picture? If you expect that the dead will be reunited with their old bodies, then where are these "saints" now?

The Anointed……. Nowhere is it said that the dead will be reunited with their old bodies. Why do you lie?
Why can’t you even believe the very scriptures that you Quote; “"So it is with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised up in incorruption.”

In the three days that Jesus was dead in the flesh and alive in the spirit, he went and preached the Good News to the dead also. It was preached [Not to the angels as you suggested] but to those who had been judged in their PHYSICAL existence as all are judged: It was preached to them so that in their SPIRITUAL existence they might live as God lives.

Their bodies were sown in corruption and were raised in incorruption. In their spiritual existence they entered the city and showed themselves to many.

Just as the body of Jesus, which came out of the grave was no longer a corruptible body of matter, but a body which could eat food and pass through solid objects and enter the locked room in which the disciples were hiding, and so it was with the saints, who came out of their graves.

Deeje wrote....... Paul clearly speaks about the "coming of the Lord" and that those who are "dead in Christ" (the chosen ones) would hear his call and then rise...the "first" ones to do so. There can only be one "first".

The Anointed…….. Let me here repeat once again; “The first to be resurrected when Jesus comes in the future are not those of the first resurrection, who were resurrected some two thousand years ago in the past.”

Deeje wrote...…. 1 Cor 15:42-45.....
"So it is with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised up in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised up in power. 44 It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit."

The first resurrection is spiritual, not fleshly. There would be no fleshly bodies walking around.

The Anointed……. Let me here repeat once again, “Out of the graves of the saints whose physical bodies were sown in corruption, came the bodies of those saints which were raised incorruptible.

It was in their spiritual bodies that those of the first resurrection appeared in the city on the day that Jesus was resurrected.

Deeje wrote....... I actually have very little time for the KJV. It is not a translation I ever use, so I don't know where you got that idea.

The Anointed……. I must have had you confused with another on this forum, who said that the KJV was the only translation that they ever used. But that is irrelevant, as the three translations that you mentioned above, the NASB, Mounce interlinear and YLT, simply confirm that the KJV is correct in this instance.

Deeje wrote....... Why do you attempt to make a small, vague story into a big one? "first resurrection" does not take place until Christ's presence as King of God's Kingdom.

The Anointed…… You call the resurrection of the body of God’s son who filled the man Jesus with his spirit, and who abandoned his chosen heir and successor on the cross, and ceased to be an individual entity by releasing the spirits of all the righteous dead who had been gathered to him in his ascension to the throne of the MOST HIGH in the creation, ‘A SMALL,VAGUE STORY.’

Let me put you straight. To be Continued.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

The bodies of all those who have been murdered are dead [no longer living] But those murderers were unable to destroy the soul or the mind/spirit which was imprinted into the soul.

Only God can divide the mind from the soul [Which is the second death] in the refining fires of physical life, where the soul will be given a new body and a new mind. For all souls are prepared to eternity.

Souls die. -- Ezekiel 18:4

 

[The Anointed]

Concerning the saint whose graves were open when Jesus gave up his spirit on the cross.

Jesus, the earthly body that God had prepared for his chosen heir and successor, whose righteous ancestors had paid the blood price for sin and had been judged and separated from the unrighteous dead and gathered to the evolving and ascending spirit of Enoch, within the bosom of Abraham over whom death no longer had any power, and Jesus was the duplication of Enoch our indwelling evolving righteous ancestral spirit, as he had evolved to some 2,000 years ago, and he was offered up as a sacrifice by our spiritual father.

And in the same manner as God had prepared a substitute sacrifice for Isaac the son of God’s promise who, like Jesus, was born according to the workings of the Holy Spirit, so too had he prepared a substitute offering for Jesus, who Enoch had become at that particular point in time, in his evolution as the sin offering “The brilliant Simulacrum,” of which Enoch was the chosen corner-stone, and the head. [The first and the last]

The brilliant Simulacrum/blueprint, of the new life form that evolves from mankind, [THE SON OF MAN] who dies in the process of involution in order to be the saviour of we in evolution. This he does by releasing from the least to the greatest, all the spirits that were gathered to the cornerstone of God’s new earthly Temple, THE SON OF MAN. The man Enoch, the cornerstone that was rejected by the Jewish and Christian churches was the first and the least

On the cross, Jesus cried out, “My God, my God, why have you abandoned me," as he gave up his spirit and the evolving indwelling spiritual Enoch, the least and the first to be released from the brilliant Simulacrum at the ends of time, ceased to be an individual entity, as the graves of the spirits, of who he was their compilation, and by who he had evolved, up until that point in time, were opened, and three days later, they [The body of Christ the anointed one] entered the city of Jerusalem, where they showed themselves as the risen Christ [The Anointed one].

Matthew 27: 52, And the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints that slept arose. Verse 53, And came out of the graves and three days later [On the day of the resurrection,] they went into the Holy city and appeared to many.

One would expect the risen body of the anointed one to appear to the family of Jesus first, and this is exactly what we see.

The first to see one of they, who were of the body of the risen Christ, the 365 day old unblemished Lamb, the sacrificial offering prepared for us by God, were his Mother, Mary the wife of Cleophas and her [Sister----Daughter-in-law] Mary Magdalene, who, although looking straight at him, thought that he was the gardener, until he spoke her name.

The next to who one of the risen body of Christ appeared, were the carpenter ‘Cleophas,’ the second husband of Mary, who is also called Alpheas, and Simon/Simeon the half-brother of Jesus, who was to inherit the Episcopal throne of the church of the circumcision after his half-brother, 'James the righteous,' was killed at the instigation of the same Sadducee sect that had Jesus the full brother of James killed.

Although Cleophas and Simon walked and talked with one of the risen body of Christ for some 11 kilometres to the small town of Emmaus, they did not recognise him for who he was, until Simon recognised the manner in which he broke the bread before disappearing.

Cleophas then returned to Jerusalem, where the disciples, which included Simon Peter and Simon the Patriot, the only two of the twelve disciples by the name Simon, were cowering in a darkened room. The only one of the twelve who was absent that evening when Jesus appeared in that dimly lit room in the form that they recognised as Jesus, was Thomas Jude another half-brother of Jesus, the one who was called the Twin, although nowhere does the bible say that he was an actual twin or whether he just held a striking resemblance to someone else, perhaps one with who he shared a common father.

But back to Cleophas, who said to the disciples, who would have opened the door for him, "He has risen, he appeared to Simon," who was of course Simon the son of Cleophas and half-brother to Jesus and the one who succeeded ‘James the younger of Mary’s three biological sons’ as the head of the church founded by their brother Jesus.

It was then that a figure appeared in that dimly lit room in the form that they recognised as Jesus, the following week, Jesus appeared in the locked room, where this time, Thomas who was called the ‘TWIN’ was with the other disciples.

See John 21: 1 to 12; Then there were the seven disciples who were fishing on Lake Galilee having no success at all, when someone on the bank told them to throw their net on the right side of the boat in which they caught 153 fishes, later on while sitting down to eat with the person who had a fire prepared with fish on it and some bread, not one of the seven disciples of Jesus who had walked and talked with him, dared to ask who he was, but they understood that he was of the risen body of Christ. Even when he ascended up into heaven as a cloud, some of the 11 disciples doubted that it was he.

More to come.

 

[The Anointed]

Souls die. -- Ezekiel 18:4

Good News Bible----- Ezekiel 18:4 The life of every person belongs to me, the life of the parent as well as that of the child. The person who sins is the one who will die.

After being taken to the throne of the MOST HIGH and ANOINTED as his heir and successor, Enoch was told to Sit and write all the souls of mankind, however many of them are born, and the places prepared for them to eternity; for all souls are prepared to Eternity, before the formation of the world, said the Lord.

Christ is the English term for the Greek (Khristós) meaning "the anointed one" It is a translation of the Hebrew (Māšîaḥ), usually transliterated into English as Messiah or Mashiach. The Hebrew word translated "anointed" is the verb form of the noun "Messiah."

All souls are prepared to eternity, even those that are cast into the lake of fire where the spirit is divided from the soul which will be given a new body and a new spirit, of course it could be that of a worn or a maggot, depending on the position prepared for that soul by the Anointed one.

After being taken to the throne of the MOST HIGH and ANOINTED as his heir and successor, Enoch was told to Sit and write all the souls of mankind, however many of them are born, and the places prepared for them to eternity; for all souls are prepared to Eternity, before the formation of the world, said the Lord.

Christ is the English term for the Greek (Khristós) meaning "the anointed one" It is a translation of the Hebrew (Māšîaḥ), usually transliterated into English as Messiah or Mashiach. The Hebrew word translated "anointed" is the verb form of the noun "Messiah."

All souls are prepared to eternity, even those that are cast into the lake of fire where the spirit/mind is divided from the soul which will be given a new body and a new spirit, of course it could be that of a worm or a maggot, depending on the position prepared for that soul by the Anointed one.

 

[Neuropteron]

In context, Ecclesiastes 9:5 states;

9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

(King James Bible, Ecclesiastes)
So some key points, if this refers to all the dead, and they have no more reward, how could the righteous be rewarded in any future alleged state with eternal life, freedom from sickness and ill health in a physical body etc?

Also according to my understanding the JW belief is that one will be living eternally on physical earth (ie "under the sun" to paraphrase). So how is that so if the dead have no portion "forever" in anything done "under the sun"?

.......

The Hebrew word "forever" you are referring to is Oh.lam, which carries the thought of indefinite or uncertain as to time. Lexicographer Gesenius defines it as meaning "hidden time". i.e "obscure and long of which the beginning or end is uncertain or indefinite".

hopes this helps