Does Erotic Dance Degrade Women?

[PureX]

So as far as singing is concerned, you're absolutely right - more right than you probably realize, I bet.

But in terms of the overall culture, I think art is very important. Dancers, writers, painters, all of these sorts of things - they're all much more mainstream in Bosnia, and most of Europe, than they I find them to be in North America. Our money doesn't have politicians on it, it has artists on it.

How many of them are men, and how many are women?

All cultures have their quirks. Most cultures are male-dominant, with the result that women are made to be either saints or whores, because that's what men want of them. I don't like people exploiting other people, though I understand that as we humans are animals, this is always going to be a part of the human condition.

No one's ever going to ask me to be a professional exotic/erotic dancer, so I suppose this is all moot. But for the record, I would refuse. I think it's a form of human expression that glorifies men and women using their sexuality to exploit each other. I realize that such sexploitation will never go away, but I still don't want to participate in it if I can avoid it. And to tell the truth, I have a lot more respect, appreciation, and interest in women who have courageously stood up against male-dominant cultural prejudices than I do for those women who have learned to use these prejudices to their own advantage.

That's just my two cents.

 

[Djamila]

Very few of them are women, of course. I don't think we have any woman on our money, do they in America?

As for the whores/saints thing, yes. I remember that quote from Rebekkah West, "I have not been able to determine precisely what feminism is; all I know is that when I express anything that differentiates me from a doormat or a prostitute, they call me one." (1913) lol

 

[PureX]

Very few of them are women, of course. I don't think we have any woman on our money, do they in America?

Only one woman on one coin (Susan B. Anthony), that most people don't seem to like, much. When they put her image on the one dollar coin, the diminished the size of the coin, which is the reason why most Americans don't like to use the dollar coin. But that woman was definately a "feminist". *hehe*

As for the whores/saints thing, yes. I remember that quote from Rebekkah West, "I have not been able to determine precisely what feminism is; all I know is that when I express anything that differentiates me from a doormat or a prostitute, they call me one." (1913) lol

Exactly. *smile*

 

[Djamila]

Even street names. The main downtown, central street in Sarajevo is Marsala Tita (Marshall Tito). The main, suburban, major highway, freeway style street is Zmaj od Bosne (Dragon of Bosnia, Husein Gradascevic). The street named for Katarina Velika (who is argueably more important to Bosnian history than these two men combined) is in the middle of nowhere. lol

 

[Sunstone]

I can't think of a street in old Colorado Springs named after a woman, even though a woman was responsible for the basic design of the streets themselves. The town was founded by the Palmers and it was Mrs. Palmer who laid out the streets and specified that the main ones be as wide as Paris boulevards. But there are no streets named after her or any other woman.

 

[PureX]

Here's an example of a great contemporary feminist artist in America: Ani DiFranco. No slinky outfits or seductive dancing, here. Just powerful social messages and intensely personal musical expression.

 

[Djamila]

Here's one from Bosnia. The extremely Islamic, extremely conservative, extremely old-fashioned Elvira Rahic. Still singing about men, though.

Elvira Rahic - Luda zeno

 

[Booko]

Hypocritical... not really. I think Muslim opposition to the sexual culture of the West is more to do with the circumstances surrounding it. You visit one of the rural Bosnian border cities where Romanian hookers are assembled into "belly dancing clubs" and see the opposition to belly dancing in these communities. lol I think it's unusual, interesting, but not hypocritical.

This reminds me of the opposition massage therapists get here to opening up spas, which are called "massage parlors" by the ignorant. Massage parlors in the sense those people mean it is just like the belly dancing clubs you mentioned. It's just a front for prostitution. It doesn't make massage therapy evil.

 

[Booko]

There is no living creature that doesn't lure the opposite sex with a erotic ritual, is part of our nature.

Where I'm from, men lure mates by showing off their pectorals mowing lawn without a shirt and lifting heavy objects.

One thing that hasn't come up in this discussion of dancing is any difference between the overtly sexual and the sensual.

I don't see belly dancing as necessarily sexual, but more sensual, especially as practiced here. And it takes some good conditioning to do the moves too, unlike some of the cheap dance moves you see on music videos.

Belly dancing, for me, is the very definition of erotic dance.

By contract, the dancing you see in titty bars is about giving men a turn on, and nothing else. Well, there is something else -- the hope they might get lucky.

Sunstone, if you're seeing something else in it, then you are just the exception that proves the rule.

Sometimes someone's girlfriend will come to the club with a guy. Next time you're in one, watch how he treats her. It's quite interesting.

 

[Sunstone]

Sunstone, if you're seeing something else in it, then you are just the exception that proves the rule.

Your point is misplaced, methinks, because I am not arguing that the typical audience for erotic dance in this country sees things as I do. I am merely arguing that erotic dance in and of itself is not necessarily demeaning or degrading to women. That is, there is nothing inherent in erotic dance that makes it degrading.

If the dance itself caused people to objectify the woman dancing and see only a sex object, then everyone who witnesses an erotic dance should see only a sex object. But that's simply not true. Hence, it is not true that the dance in and of itself causes people to see the dancer as merely a sex object.

What causes people to see the dancer as merely a sex object is something in the people themselves, not the dancer. But that in itself can be no objection to the dancer or her dance.

 

[PureX]

Your point is misplaced, methinks, because I am not arguing that the typical audience for erotic dance in this country sees things as I do. I am merely arguing that erotic dance in and of itself is not necessarily demeaning or degrading to women. That is, there is nothing inherent in erotic dance that makes it degrading.

If the dance itself caused people to objectify the woman dancing and see only a sex object, then everyone who witnesses an erotic dance should see only a sex object. But that's simply not true. Hence, it is not true that the dance in and of itself causes people to see the dancer as merely a sex object.

What causes people to see the dancer as merely a sex object is something in the people themselves, not the dancer. But that in itself can be no objection to the dancer or her dance.

I really don't agree with you on this one. It's like saying that there's nothing inherent in the nude female body that would invite a sexual reaction from men. That's just silly and unrealistic. Especially in this case, when the female body is made to move with the specific purpose of inspiring a sexual reaction: desire. Maybe YOU go to a strip club for the "art" of the strip-tease, but I think you would be the only one in the club that's there for that reason, or that looks at the dance that way. ("I only buy Playboy for the articles" *haha*)

 

[Sunstone]

I really don't agree with you on this one. It's like saying that there's nothing inherent in the nude female body that would invite a sexual reaction from men. That's just silly and unrealistic. Especially in this case, when the female body is made to move with the specific purpose of inspiring a sexual reaction: desire. Maybe YOU go to a strip club for the "art" of the strip-tease, but I think you would be the only one in the club that's there for that reason, or that looks at the dance that way. ("I only buy Playboy for the articles" *haha*)

You've entirely missed the point, I think. You draw a contrast between seeing the dancer in a sexual light and seeing her in a non sexual light. That's quite Victorian, actually. The Victorians could only conceive of something as either sexual and dirty, or not sexual and pure. Put differently, they could only conceive of someone as either a sex object or as not sexual at all. Which is why they had to deny that the "purer" sort of woman had a sexuality at all. The whole madonna/whore dichotomy.

But don't you think it's possible to see someone as both sexual and as a person too? Can't you see someone as having both a personality and a sexuality at the same time? Again, can't you look at a dancer dancing her sexuality and also see a person in her own right? It's really not that hard to do. One just has to free oneself from the Victorian notion that anyone who is being overtly sexual has to be a sex object.

 

[Djamila]

I finally thought of one, PureX.

Alka Vuica is not trashy at all, and she's very artistic. This is her version of the song Zivot je Bosna (Life is Bosnia).


Alka Vuica i Halid Beslic-Zivot je Bosna

And these are the lyrics to one of her songs, to prove she's not singing about men:

I'm not able to write to you anymore
The grenade storm makes me deaf
Makes my lips mute
My hands stumbling over the words

Shall I ever be able to write to you again?
It used to be so easy to sit with my eyes closed and imagine you by my side
Strumming your guitar, and sipping wine
It used to be so easy to confess you verses so confused and full of wonder

Shall we ever be able to live with as much dignity as we used to?
Sailing back from the nocturnal voyages and kissing the life,
With all the sins and sanctities of the soul

It's so hard to think about life now
As the death is dancing, trembling above us
To think about that life from American soap operas
Or that life from Socialistic burlesque of well-being and quality
To think of our love as sacriligious
While the little girls are dying
Dreaming about magic and tenderness

I feel perverse because I think about life
While the people leave homes with the plastic bags on their heads
Carrying more heavy bodies in their cold hearts

Shall we ever be able to live with as much dignity as we used to?

 

[Booko]

Your point is misplaced, methinks, because I am not arguing that the typical audience for erotic dance in this country sees things as I do. I am merely arguing that erotic dance in and of itself is not necessarily demeaning or degrading to women. That is, there is nothing inherent in erotic dance that makes it degrading.

I think I agreed with you in my comments about belly dancing, which is certainly sensual, but is not necessarily demeaning or degrading.

If the dance itself caused people to objectify the woman dancing and see only a sex object, then everyone who witnesses an erotic dance should see only a sex object. But that's simply not true. Hence, it is not true that the dance in and of itself causes people to see the dancer as merely a sex object.

Y'know, Sunstone, if virtually everyone sees a sex object, frankly that's close enough. And when it comes to strictly nude dancing in our culture "virtually everyone" fits the bill.

You may argue that other cultures have different ideas about the meaning of nudity, and that would be fine. But we don't live there.

[quite]What causes people to see the dancer as merely a sex object is something in the people themselves, not the dancer. But that in itself can be no objection to the dancer or her dance.[/quote]

It's not the dancers I ever object to.

 

[Booko]

("I only buy Playboy for the articles" *haha*)

I actually did buy a Playboy for the articles once. It was the Jim Bakker one, and a prof in the Art department from my alma mater did the artwork, so I had to see what he was up to.

I modeled for his class once, and he was really pleased with how his worked turned out that day, and said it reminded him of Reubens.

Boy, was I peeved!

 

[Sunstone]

Y'know, Sunstone, if virtually everyone sees a sex object, frankly that's close enough. And when it comes to strictly nude dancing in our culture "virtually everyone" fits the bill.

You may argue that other cultures have different ideas about the meaning of nudity, and that would be fine. But we don't live there.

Are you seriously arguing that the meaning of something (in this case erotic dance) depends on what the majority of people in a culture think it means? If that were true, my friend, then we must reevaluate all our values. There is no one thing that the majority of people are expert in. The majority of people are not expert in plumbing. The majority of people are not expert in medicine. The majority of people are not expert in carprentry. The majority of people are not expert in business. And the majority of people are not expert in erotic dance. So, what the majority of people think erotic dance is all about matters about as much as what the majority of people think is the proper way to install plumbing in an office tower. You will never convince me that erotic dance is degrading or demeaning to women by appeal to the what the majority of people feel about it.

 

[Matt]

How many women do you think are doing exotic dancing because they enjoy it? I would imagine the number would be extremely small. In countries like Australia, there is no use for it because you can receive government financial assistance to get by until you find a real job. Therefore people are doing it because they enjoy it, or regular wages are insufficient to support their lifestyles. So they need to change their habits.

I cannot imagine any woman choosing stripping as a career, it is something they fall into out of desperation, and can if they try, get out again. But they have no desire to because they quickly become acustomed to what they are doing. They lose all self worth and their morals too.

How many of you would defend it if your mothers of your daughters became exotic dancers? :cover:

 

[PureX]

You've entirely missed the point, I think. You draw a contrast between seeing the dancer in a sexual light and seeing her in a non sexual light. That's quite Victorian, actually. The Victorians could only conceive of something as either sexual and dirty, or not sexual and pure. Put differently, they could only conceive of someone as either a sex object or as not sexual at all. Which is why they had to deny that the "purer" sort of woman had a sexuality at all. The whole madonna/whore dichotomy.

What part of exotic dancing promotes seeing the dancer as something other than a sex object? It's the nature of the dancing itself that causes the viewer to focus entirely in the dancer's sexuality, and to exclude viewing them as a human being. And this is done specifically for money. The audience is specifically encouraged to view the dancer as a sexual object that can be obtained for cash. And the audience is specifically led to believe that the dancer likes and approves of this arrangement. It's not in the audience's imagination, it's being communicated to them by the design of the dance.

But don't you think it's possible to see someone as both sexual and as a person too? Can't you see someone as having both a personality and a sexuality at the same time? Again, can't you look at a dancer dancing her sexuality and also see a person in her own right? It's really not that hard to do. One just has to free oneself from the Victorian notion that anyone who is being overtly sexual has to be a sex object.

Of course, but that's not what's going on. In America, exotic dancing discourages viewing the dancer as anything other than a sex object. There is nothing in the dance that promotes seeing the dancer as a person. In fact, they wear costumes and make-up and play stereotyped characters as a way of disguising their individuality, and focussing attention on their movements and on the body as an object. The dancers use stage names to further discourage the audience from seeing them as real people. There is nothing about American exotic dancing that encourages us to view them as individual human beings. The whole show is about hiding that aspect of the dancer, and focussing attention only on their physical sexuality, instead.

I think belly dancing is a different kind of dance that's engaged in under different conditions. My guess is that the majority of the audience at most belly dancing performances will be other women, who are not lesbians, but who want to learn about a traditional seductive art form. I have also heard that in some parts of California, it has become sheik for young women to dance the strip-tease, and so some new clubs have opened up offering a stylized version of strip-tease dancing, again, as much for an audience of other women as for men. But these are the rare exceptions. Most exotic dancing, and striping, is just gross sexual exploitation that degrades everyone involved.

 

[PureX]

How many women do you think are doing exotic dancing because they enjoy it? I would imagine the number would be extremely small. In countries like Australia, there is no use for it because you can receive government financial assistance to get by until you find a real job. Therefore people are doing it because they enjoy it, or regular wages are insufficient to support their lifestyles. So they need to change their habits.

I cannot imagine any woman choosing stripping as a career, it is something they fall into out of desperation, and can if they try, get out again. But they have no desire to because they quickly become accustomed to what they are doing. They lose all self worth and their morals too.

How many of you would defend it if your mothers of your daughters became exotic dancers? :cover:

Myself, I don't consider whether they "enjoy it" or not. It's a sad fact that most women who become prostitutes have been sexually abused from an early age, and have come to view themselves as sexual objects as a result. If asked, many of them claim they like being a prostitute because they see it as a way of "taking back control" of the sex acts that they engage in. They believe that they are using their bodies to exploit men for money instead of the men using them against their will (as was the case in their past). They don't see themselves as being sexually exploited for money. They see themselves as the exploiters.

At the same time, the men who "buy" women for sex certainly don't think that they're being exploited, either. They think it's just a business deal, and no one's being exploited, or if they think they're the exploiters, they just don't care. But my opinion is that everything about prostitution is exploitive; both parties are exploiting the other, regardless of what they think they're doing, and regardless of their agreeing to it.

I realize that exotic dancing is not the same as prostitution, but I think it is quite similar, at least here in America. And I think in many other parts of the world, too.

 

[Quiddity]

I would not date one, nor would I be very happy if my daughter became one. Some of us disagree with the proper manner our bodies are to be used for.