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Does "evil" recognize itself?

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Relative morality allows evil to think it is good, since morality becomes subjective. Street criminals who are now pampered, must now think they are being good. If it feels good and nobody does anything about it, how can it be evil? Evil then become what everyone who uses an objective standard, is doing.

For example, Affirmative action was just a sugar coated name for racial and sexual profiling and discrimination. This is still thought to be good by those who practice relative morality. Many cannot see how discrimination of any kind is wrong or evil, since they have no objective compass for good and evil. What they have is based on what is relative to the needs of one group, which is not universal enough to become objective morality.

Senator Schiff from California, who lied about Russian Collusion, is seen as a hero to those who practice relative morality. They cannot see how lying is wrong, since this is what they do, and which brings then an advantage. How can the advantage of lying be wrong?
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Relative morality allows evil to think it is good, since morality becomes subjective. Street criminals who are now pampered, must now think they are being good. If it feels good and nobody does anything about it, how can it be evil? Evil then become what everyone who uses an objective standard, is doing.

For example, Affirmative action was just a sugar coated name for racial and sexual profiling and discrimination. This is still thought to be good by those who practice relative morality. Many cannot see how discrimination of any kind is wrong or evil, since they have no objective compass for good and evil. What they have is based on what is relative to the needs of one group, which is not universal enough to become objective morality.

Senator Schiff from California, who lied about Russian Collusion, is seen as a hero to those who practice relative morality. They cannot see how lying is wrong, since this is what they do, and which brings then an advantage. How can the advantage of lying be wrong?
I'd hate to see the objective morality that might impose chopping off hands for stealing, blinding for voyeurism, castration for rape, or whatever for other crimes being the norm, and would rather see some compassion for both victims and offenders as to dealing with real issues.

As to lying - it is mostly just an aspect of being human, and learnt quite early on, so I wouldn't place this as being some ultimate aim in 'correcting' societies. Not that I advocate it either. :eek:
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Relative morality allows evil to think it is good, since morality becomes subjective. Street criminals who are now pampered, must now think they are being good. If it feels good and nobody does anything about it, how can it be evil? Evil then become what everyone who uses an objective standard, is doing.

For example, Affirmative action was just a sugar coated name for racial and sexual profiling and discrimination. This is still thought to be good by those who practice relative morality. Many cannot see how discrimination of any kind is wrong or evil, since they have no objective compass for good and evil. What they have is based on what is relative to the needs of one group, which is not universal enough to become objective morality.

Senator Schiff from California, who lied about Russian Collusion, is seen as a hero to those who practice relative morality. They cannot see how lying is wrong, since this is what they do, and which brings then an advantage. How can the advantage of lying be wrong?

Oh, ffs... :rolleyes:
 

Angelical

Member
How often do you think that those who many might consider to be immoral, unethical, dishonorable etc. are aware of and acknowledge that about themselves vs. think themselves otherwise or be in denial about it?
I would say most who do Evil are unaware:

1. Many think there is some kind of thing where if you aren’t where they are you must have done something wrong. It is a lack of World experience, or otherwise not seeing how you could be in the same situation. There are probably People right now thinking about how something really really bad could never happen to them as they read this.

So these People that some call “True Evil”, the supposedly “Good, who do nothing in the face of Evil”. Kind of the Germans not fighting against the Nazis even though it was only 3% of them.

2. Many People Justify what they are doing. Like, “Someone else did it to me first”, or “This is how it happens around here”, I’ve even heard People try to blame Texas and being Texan for Heinous Crimes. And I’m Texan and completely disagree. So often these People don’t even know what they’ve done.

3. Then there is the “Nice Guys Finish Last” concept. There are some out there who are past Justifying, past thinking Bad things happen to Bad People, and they feel like if a Female sees them with a soft Penis too often, maybe she won’t let him put it in her so often. So she has to always see him Horny. And, no Hoes around here unless they like Dope and can follow orders. Like, they actually start to think in terms of themselves being successful, having achieved something, even a feeling of being better than others, smarter.
 
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Father Heathen

Veteran Member
How is evil defined? I define evil as anything that goes against God.

I think most people know the difference between good and evil and that's why they do their evil in the dark. In the end, EVERYTHING will be revealed and the wicked will pay a great price.

Luke 8:17 ESV​

For nothing is hidden that will not be made manifest, nor is anything secret that will not be known and come to light.
Oh my stars.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Relative morality allows evil to think it is good, since morality becomes subjective. Street criminals who are now pampered, must now think they are being good. If it feels good and nobody does anything about it, how can it be evil? Evil then become what everyone who uses an objective standard, is doing.

For example, Affirmative action was just a sugar coated name for racial and sexual profiling and discrimination. This is still thought to be good by those who practice relative morality. Many cannot see how discrimination of any kind is wrong or evil, since they have no objective compass for good and evil. What they have is based on what is relative to the needs of one group, which is not universal enough to become objective morality.

Senator Schiff from California, who lied about Russian Collusion, is seen as a hero to those who practice relative morality. They cannot see how lying is wrong, since this is what they do, and which brings then an advantage. How can the advantage of lying be wrong?
What you call "relative morality" isn't.

E.g.: different countries have different opinions about maturity and the protection of minors. In one country minors are protected by the state until they are 18, i.e. protected from exploitation in the workplace, protected from abusive/im-balanced relationships (child marriage), special treatment before the law, etc. This protection comes with the limit of freedom, limited ability to choose relationships, limited ability to enter into contracts, limited voting rights, limits on consumption of alcohol and other substances.
When the limits match the age of protection, it is relative morality. Seeing someone as immature justifies protection and limits, no matter where that age is.
When the limits don't fit the protection, its not relative morality, its hypocrisy.

As for lying, when you think lying is immoral and you don't lie and don't let your tribe lie but someone else lies and isn't offended when they're lied to, that's relative morality. When you are offended when lied to but don't mind when members of your tribe lie to others, that's tribalism and hypocrisy.
Someone who voted for Bush jr's second term or for Trump should never be offended by a lying politician of any colour.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
The thing I have learned over the years about this subject is to keep in mind that it's cumulative. The first time we blatantly and deliberately lie to someone for our own advantage, we will be keenly aware of it, and feel very uneasy about it
Didn't grow up in survival mode, did you? Starting young to protect yourself makes it very easy to lie.
The point being that each time we choose to do something evil, we become a little bit more evil, ourselves. Until eventually we have become a truly evil person. One that not only does evil, but 'believes in' doing it. As if it were a virtue. And is even proud of it.
No. Some of us have done some wrong things, but it doesn't consume us and many of us realize the errors of ways and stop doing those things.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
What you call "relative morality" isn't.

E.g.: different countries have different opinions about maturity and the protection of minors. In one country minors are protected by the state until they are 18, i.e. protected from exploitation in the workplace, protected from abusive/im-balanced relationships (child marriage), special treatment before the law, etc. This protection comes with the limit of freedom, limited ability to choose relationships, limited ability to enter into contracts, limited voting rights, limits on consumption of alcohol and other substances.
When the limits match the age of protection, it is relative morality. Seeing someone as immature justifies protection and limits, no matter where that age is.
When the limits don't fit the protection, its not relative morality, its hypocrisy.

As for lying, when you think lying is immoral and you don't lie and don't let your tribe lie but someone else lies and isn't offended when they're lied to, that's relative morality. When you are offended when lied to but don't mind when members of your tribe lie to others, that's tribalism and hypocrisy.
Someone who voted for Bush jr's second term or for Trump should never be offended by a lying politician of any colour.
If you look at science, lying is frowned upon, since the needs of one ego, for fame or promotion, is not worth everyone else having to live that lie. Bad science can cause harm. Lying at the level of those in Government power, imposes injustice on all. To live their lie, people lose rights and are made stupid.

Justice needs to based on objective morality, which all can infer, like basic principles of science using the hard data in front of you. It has to be based only on truth; hard realty data, instead of relative reference pretend data and self serving political references. Democrats may not be able to tell the difference. This leads to injustice for all.

Science that uses casino math and thereby depends on fuzzy dice data, lies to science and all of us. Fuzzy dice gives too much wiggle room, to fake the truth. That is not real science and this needs to be pointed out. How many times can the weather man be wrong before anything is done to correct their casino science approach? Is one supposed to accept poor predictions and be satisfied in that alternate realty world of lies; do not equate to reality.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
How often do you think that those who many might consider to be immoral, unethical, dishonorable etc. are aware of and acknowledge that about themselves vs. think themselves otherwise or be in denial about it?

This question reminds me of this scene:

qvig745bg6c61.jpg



Bill Foster : I'm the bad guy?

Sergeant Prendergast : Yeah.

Bill Foster : How'd that happen? I did everything they told me to. Did you know I build missiles? I helped to protect America. You should be rewarded for that. Instead they give it to the plastic surgeons, y'know, they lied to me.

Sergeant Prendergast : Is that what this is about? You're angry because you got lied to? Is that why my chicken dinner is drying out in the oven? Hey, they lie to everyone. They lie to the fish. But that doesn't give you any special right to do what you did today.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
The real question is why are "they" in charge? Why do we keep letting the liars run things when we know they don't have anyone's interest in mind but their own?

I am continually astonished that a nation of millions of people will allow one psychopathic lunatic and a small contingency of thugs to take over and run it into the ground, killing millions. Why couldn't they simply see it coming, and kill the psychopath, instead?

And yet this keeps happening over and over and over. Not just within nations, but in churches, and businesses, and in any collective human engagement that allows power to be accrued in the hands of a few, to inevitably be abused.

Why? Why don't we ever learn from the enormous suffering that always results?
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
If you look at science, lying is frowned upon, since the needs of one ego, for fame or promotion, is not worth everyone else having to live that lie. Bad science can cause harm. Lying at the level of those in Government power, imposes injustice on all. To live their lie, people lose rights and are made stupid.

Justice needs to based on objective morality, which all can infer, like basic principles of science using the hard data in front of you. It has to be based only on truth; hard realty data, instead of relative reference pretend data and self serving political references. Democrats may not be able to tell the difference. This leads to injustice for all.

Science that uses casino math and thereby depends on fuzzy dice data, lies to science and all of us. Fuzzy dice gives too much wiggle room, to fake the truth. That is not real science and this needs to be pointed out. How many times can the weather man be wrong before anything is done to correct their casino science approach? Is one supposed to accept poor predictions and be satisfied in that alternate realty world of lies; do not equate to reality.
I don't know how you got from relative morality to mathematics (which you understand even less than morality). Can you explain the steps?
 

Ostronomos

Well-Known Member
Evil is a delusion. It may use trickery and deceit to lull people into a false sense of security. But it can be destroyed as I read in the past. Evil is not merely a deliberate act against societal values. It can occur simply by a deceitful individual who uses trickery over the internet to say, convince the masses that there is no God or no religious beliefs hold water. That they are absurd and only rationality should be championed, as if that were true.
 

Ostronomos

Well-Known Member
Like organisms evolved in gentle tide pools, who migrate to freezing oceans or steaming jungles by developing metabolisms, mechanisms, and behaviors workable in those harsher and vaster environments, our descendants, able to change their representations at will, may develop means to venture far from the comfortable realms we consider reality into arbitrarily strange worlds. Their techniques will be as meaningless to us as bicycles are to fish, but perhaps we can stretch our common-sense-hobbled imaginations enough to peer a short distance into this odd territory.

Simulation, Consciousness, Existence
Hans Moravec, 1998

Simulation​

During the last few centuries, physical science has convincingly answered so many questions about the nature of things, and so hugely increased our abilities, that many see it as the only legitimate claimant to the title of true knowledge. Other belief systems may have social utility for the groups that practice them, but ultimately they are just made-up stories. I myself am partial to such ``physical fundamentalism.''

Physical fundamentalists, however, must agree with René Descartes that the world we perceive through our senses could be an elaborate hoax. In the seventeenth century Descartes considered the possibility of an evil demon who created the illusion of an external reality by controlling all that we see and hear (and feel and smell and taste). In the twenty-first century, physical science itself, through the technology of virtual reality, will provide the means to create such illusions. Enthusiastic video gamers and other cybernauts are already strapping themselves into virtual reality goggles and body suits for brief stints in made-up worlds whose fundamental mechanisms are completely different from the quantum fields that (best evidence suggests) constitute our physical world.

Today's virtual adventurers do not fully escape the physical world: if they bump into real objects, they feel real pain. That link may weaken when direct connections to the nervous system become possible, leading perhaps to the old science-fiction idea of a living brain in a vat. The brain would be physically sustained by life-support machinery, and mentally by connections of all the peripheral nerves to an elaborate simulation of not only a surrounding world but also a body for the brain to inhabit. Brain vats might be medical stopgaps for accident victims with bodies damaged beyond repair, pending the acquisition, growth, or manufacture of a new body.

The virtual life of a brain in a vat can still be subtly perturbed by external physical, chemical, or electrical effects impinging on the vat. Even these weak ties to the physical world would fade if the brain, as well as the body, was absorbed into the simulation. If damaged or endangered parts of the brain, like the body, could be replaced with functionally equivalent simulations, some individuals could survive total physical destruction to find themselves alive as pure computer simulations in virtual worlds.

A simulated world hosting a simulated person can be a closed self-contained entity. It might exist as a program on a computer processing data quietly in some dark corner, giving no external hint of the joys and pains, successes and frustrations of the person inside. Inside the simulation events unfold according to the strict logic of the program, which defines the ``laws of physics'' of the simulation. The inhabitant might, by patient experimentation and inference, deduce some representation of the simulation laws, but not the nature or even existence of the simulating computer. The simulation's internal relationships would be the same if the program were running correctly on any of an endless variety of possible computers, slowly, quickly, intermittently, or even backwards and forwards in time, with the data stored as charges on chips, marks on a tape, or pulses in a delay line, with the simulation's numbers represented in binary, decimal, or Roman numerals, compactly or spread widely across the machine. There is no limit, in principle, on how indirect the relationship between simulation and simulated can be.

Today's simulations, say of aircraft flight or the weather, are run to provide answers and images. They do so through additional programs that translate the simulation's internal representations into forms convenient for external human observers. The need to interpret limits how radical a simulation's hardware and software representations can be. Making them too different from the form of the answers may render the translation impractically slow and expensive. This practical limit may be irrelevant for simulations, such as the medical rescue imagined above, that contain their own observers. Conscious inhabitants of simulations experience their virtual lives whether or not outsiders manage to view them. They can be implemented in any way at all.

What does it mean for a process to implement, or encode, a simulation? Something is palpably an encoding if there is a way of decoding or translating it into a recognizable form. Programs that produce pictures of evolving cloud cover from weather simulations, or cockpit views from flight simulations, are examples of such decodings. As the relationship between the elements inside the simulator and the external representation becomes more complicated, the decoding process may become impractically expensive. Yet there is no obvious cutoff point. A translation that is impractical today may be possible tomorrow given more powerful computers, some yet undiscovered mathematical approach, or perhaps an alien translator. Like people who dismiss speech and signs in unfamiliar foreign languages as meaningless gibberish, we are likely to be rudely surprised if we dismiss possible interpretations simply because we can't achieve them at the moment. Why not accept all mathematically possible decodings, regardless of present or future practicality? This seems a safe, open-minded approach, but it leads into strange territory.

From: Simulation, Consciousness, Existence -- Hans Moravec, 1998
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
The real question is why are "they" in charge? Why do we keep letting the liars run things when we know they don't have anyone's interest in mind but their own?

I am continually astonished that a nation of millions of people will allow one psychopathic lunatic and a small contingency of thugs to take over and run it into the ground, killing millions. Why couldn't they simply see it coming, and kill the psychopath, instead?

And yet this keeps happening over and over and over. Not just within nations, but in churches, and businesses, and in any collective human engagement that allows power to be accrued in the hands of a few, to inevitably be abused.

Why? Why don't we ever learn from the enormous suffering that always results?
It has to do with law. Many people assume law equals righteousness. So when corrupt people control the law, they can make changes to the law, that many people assume is well thought out and righteous, since the law passed and is now enforced.

When Hitler made laws that allowed the Jews to become targets, or when the Left makes laws to allow parents to be portrayed as domestic terrorists, the thugs have the power of the law on their side; police state. Obeying and enforcing the law is now a duty, even if the law is immoral; Democrat racial segregation laws of 1940's.

Good people end up in a moral dilemma of wanting to be lawful; good citizen by the law, and wanting justice in the law, with changes to the law taking time to reach the Supreme Court. It is not lawful to bust up the house, unless you are a Democrat; 2020 riots. One needs to be patient and wait until change can happen, while evil has time to resist change and make more laws, to further secure its evil and self serving position.

The solution is to reduce the number of laws to a smaller set of basic principles, making it harder to change with the tricks of evil; Constitution. Evil works better when law is complicated and convoluted, so the masses cannot see the loopholes the criminals are creating, before it is too late. We should be able to reduce law and regulations to 10% of the current, so it is not set up to be exploited by lair lawyers like Adam Schiff. It is not coincidence that the worse offenders make the most laws.

The tax code, which is based on laws, could be simplified to one page. Currently it take 70,000 page of convoluted legal tax talk, which makes it easy to skirt the spirit of the law, without being illegal. The Democrats will complain both the evil rich not doing their fair share. But there is always resistance to any simplification that can achieve that end, since the crooks need convolution to run their donation and gold parachute scams. We assume the tax laws are needed to protect us, but that is what they want you to think. Its convoluted design is for the gamers and for the exchange of donor money.

Rational laws are being restored and the crooks are having a fit looking for new ways to skirt simple guiding principles of the Constitution. Read the 1st Amendment, it has all the controls on Government. The citizens are free to speak and worship anywhere, yet the crooks convoluted that and placed controls on people based on atheism and political parties. Since that is signed into law, crooked behavior becomes legal, and common people are not sure how to be good by the law, and also fair to the ideals of good law. You need lawyers which are expensive. This whole scam we can be traced to lawyers, lawyer jobs and their donations to the Democrat Party.
 
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PureX

Veteran Member
@wellwisher

All of your posts are drowning in right wing conspiracy BS. There's really nothing for it but for me to ignore it. It's just a lot of poisonous political crap intended to grease the rails for the very criminal bullyboys that you accuse everyone else of being. And that's a shame, because I can see that you are in earnest. But no one can save you from yourself. You drank the coolaid and you've joined the cult and now you'll die when your Dear Leader tells you to, thinking you're a martyr for their idiotic rhetoric.
 
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osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
I think most people are not aware of being immoral. One's morality is another's immorality.

Evil is hatred of conscience; a total absolute willful lack of care for conscience towards others. Evil is totally willful. They are aware of it even if they don't have names and concepts for what it is. Evil and villain are not the same thing. A villain feels they are justified whereas an evil person couldn't care less.
 

Ostronomos

Well-Known Member
RESPONDENT: Here is how the spiritual faculty works:
According to the scientific method, absolute certainty cannot exist. This reduces to the statement: ‘The only certainty, is uncertainty’ This appears to be a tautological statement. So the scientific method itself, employs a type of circular reasoning. In fact, there seems to be no escaping certain types of circular logic. It is built into the very structure of our cognitive machinery. The ultimate limits of observation, i.e. the extremely small approaching zero and extremely large at the end of the universe, appear to be forever beyond our reach. It can be acknowledged that quantum phase inhibitors exist in the neural underpinnings of certain sentient programs. A type of built in ego identity fail-safe that prevents total systemic collapse in the neural subroutines ensuring that redundancy is not compromised. So we see that atheism-theism are two sides of the same coin. What is needed is mathematical closure in the cognitive matrix of the ostensible TOE theorizer. Therefore, belief systems must be analysed from a higher level of abstraction, a deeper level of truth. Does a first principle exist to remedy the dilemma of discovering the true approach to the ultimate truths? How can we be sure that logic is the most basic of basic starting points. What is the correct path?’ [endquote]
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
How often do you think that those who many might consider to be immoral, unethical, dishonorable etc. are aware of and acknowledge that about themselves vs. think themselves otherwise or be in denial about it?
I think that denial is the general rule. It is just too easy to convince oneself that what is done is "necessary", particularly once an actual community of mutual reinforcement is built.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I think that denial is the general rule. It is just too easy to convince oneself that what is done is "necessary", particularly once an actual community of mutual reinforcement is built.

Yeah, but that is sociology and psychology and relevant to all sub-cultures and even cultures.
 
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