Does Free Will Exist?

[Nimos]

People may find this one interesting:

 

[bobhikes]

This 15 minute video, Why Free Will Doesn’t Exist, was posted to me by an atheist I have been posting to on another forum. I do not agree with him that we do not have free will. Below is the gist of his argument. The first two paragraphs below are a summary of what is in the video and the last paragraph is this atheist’s personal opinion.

What makes free will an illusion is that the choice you make will always be either the choice to do what you most want to do (even when it overrides your wanting to do something else) or the choice you don't want to make but are forced to make.

We like to think that we have free will, that we could make choices other than the ones we make. However, free will -- the ability to have acted differently -- is an illusion. No matter what choice you ever made, you never really had the ability to have chosen differently.

Since free will is an illusion, it's also nothing but a lame excuse for certain problems that theists run into, for example, why a good god would allow evil to exist.​

What I believe is that we have the will to stop. Unlike free will you don't decided to anything you want. You are presented with an action and then decide to do it or not to do it. Situations create needed actions, like the need to eat but we have the ability to say no and refrain from eating. Not only is this the case for us but all life has the same ability to some extent.

 

[charlie sc]

The concept of free will took a bit of a dint with the advent of the unconscious mind with Freud. If there’s anything we got from Freud, is how the unconscious mind influences and even controls the conscious mind and it’s impossible to ever completely know the unconscious mind. Therefore, to be controlled or influenced by thoughts you’re not aware of puts a bit of a handicap on free will.

 

[LuisDantas]

You are exercising your free will now.

I am also developing my stockpiles of negopobalism, which had taken a hit last week. If all runs smoothly, they will be back to normal tomorrow.

Or maybe not. How can either of us tell?

(Sorry, but that is such a cliche, and it does not say anything whatsoever)

Unless someone else forced you to make that post.

Or something? Such as circunstances, limitations, etc?

How do you know that there are any such situations at all? Out of faith alone? Because it feels right?

This road of doubting free will has very dangerous implications.

I think that presuming free will and lending it significance may have much more dangerous implications, as best illustrated by certain results in politics and law.

If ever it should become mainstream thought (no free will). You run the risk of people committing crimes then saying they had to do it, they had no choice, it was their destiny.

And that would change nothing, nor would it have any reason to.

And since the idea of free will no longer exist, you can't hold somebody responsible for something they had no control over.

Do you truly think that would change anything?

As things are, there is no functional such concept.

All because "I had no choice your honor" "it was just something I had to do".

That happens all the time, you know.

 

[columbus]

What makes free will an illusion is that the choice you make will always be either the choice to do what you most want to do (even when it overrides your wanting to do something else) or the choice you don't want to make but are forced to make.

We like to think that we have free will, that we could make choices other than the ones we make. However, free will -- the ability to have acted differently -- is an illusion. No matter what choice you ever made, you never really had the ability to have chosen differently.

Since free will is an illusion, it's also nothing but a lame excuse for certain problems that theists run into, for example, why a good god would allow evil to exist.

I think that this is spot on.

Some illusions are very strong. Take horizons as an example. We can see them, talk about them, make pictures of them, etc. But they don't objectively exist. They are an illusion created by our limited power of perception.

Similarly, free will is an illusion created by our limited ability to perceive the causes of our choices. But those causes do exist, and are beyond our control. So our will isn't really free.
Tom

 

[Koldo]

The man in the video said that there are only 2 reasons you ever do anything:

1. You WANT to, or

2. You are forced to

This is essentially the position I hold.

He says that you cannot control your WANTs and maybe that is true.

I cannot control what I WANT but I can control what I DO about what I WANT. And that is the definition of free will, the ability to make choices between more than one option and act upon one of those choices.

My will can override what I WANT and then I will do what I feel I should do at any given time.

My desires do not control me. My beliefs which instill moral values in me control what I do.

The whole purpose of religion is to instill values into us so we have control over our lower selfish nature, what Christians call our sinful nature.

Free will does not mean you can do whatever you WANT to. Nobody can do whatever they WANT to do. Sometimes you can do what you WANT to do and sometimes you can’t. Sometimes you can act out of principle but sometimes free will is thwarted by something that precludes action.

I do a lot of things I do not WANT to do because I think they are the right things to do. I do them because I put aside my own selfish desires for a higher purpose.

You have said: "My will can override what I WANT". In my perspective, your will is your want. They are not separated. I will try to explain what I mean.

To say that free will doesn't exist sounds outright contradictory at first glance. It certainly seems to contradict our own subjective experience. For instance, we have been able to, time and time again, resist the urge to do something we really wanted to do. Yesterday I have resisted the urge to buy a snack I really appreciate eating. So, how can I say that free will doesn't exist while at the same time acknowledge that we can resist our desires, even strong desires ?

The answer is: because if you were to ask me why I resisted the urge to buy that snack I would tell you it is because that snack is not gluten free and I want to try to have a gluten free diet for a while. Notice how I had to refer to the word 'want' to explain why I chose what I did ?

Whenever I think of the reason as to why I chose to do something the word 'want' is always present.

Now, of course, it is common for people to do what they don't really want... in a sense. For example, you might not want to work today but you still go ahead and do it even though you really didn't want to. So how do I explain that ? I explain that by saying that even though you didn't want to work in a certain day you didn't want to face the consequences of not working even more so. By not working you might get fired from your job and end up being forced to beg for money or even live in the streets. You do rather work than face that though.

In essence this means there is an hierarchy between your 'wants', and since choices come in packages ( for most of us, we can't have a good standard of living AND refuse to work, just to cite one example ), we end up choosing the package that suits what we want the most.

This leads to the point that if I knew the exact hierarchy between your 'wants' at any given moment I could know exactly how you would choose if asked any given choice. This is what leads some people to say there is no free will.

 

[robocop (actually)]

I think free will doesn't exist, but we're hard wired to believe it does.

 

[Koldo]

I got about half of the way thru the video and found it completely off base and terribly dishonest.

He totally ignores the free will used to DECIDE whatever course of action we all want to do. And it also ignores the fact that many people DECIDE to NOT do whatever someone is trying to force them to do.

But to me, the most dishonest part of his deceptive viewpoint is how he ignores the free will we all use to make us who "we" really are. Take his example of "wanting" vanilla ice cream. Somewhere along the line a free will decision was made to like vanilla ice cream over the other flavors. Whereas someone else made a free will decision to like strawberry ice cream over all the other flavors. The same for a "free will" decision to dress how we like to dress, what interests we like and what things we don't, how we picked our friends, the things we buy, etc. Without free will we would all be the same.

I don't remember ever choosing to like something over anything else. Do you ?

If you were to ask me what ice cream flavor I prefer I would think of which flavor brought me the greatest joy. I would just compare the experiences. There would be no choice involved.

 

[David T]

This 15 minute video, Why Free Will Doesn’t Exist, was posted to me by an atheist I have been posting to on another forum. I do not agree with him that we do not have free will. Below is the gist of his argument. The first two paragraphs below are a summary of what is in the video and the last paragraph is this atheist’s personal opinion.

What makes free will an illusion is that the choice you make will always be either the choice to do what you most want to do (even when it overrides your wanting to do something else) or the choice you don't want to make but are forced to make.

We like to think that we have free will, that we could make choices other than the ones we make. However, free will -- the ability to have acted differently -- is an illusion. No matter what choice you ever made, you never really had the ability to have chosen differently.

Since free will is an illusion, it's also nothing but a lame excuse for certain problems that theists run into, for example, why a good god would allow evil to exist.​

The fallacy of the arguement is that it believes it's "objective". it's not that would contradict it's premise. Since it's not objective and purely subjective one has to ask what is it subjective to?

It makes no statement beyond itself so it's just narrcisism. I believe x to be true therefore x is true because I believe it to be true. It's circular reasoning dressed up to make believe it's saying something.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Free Will is just a made-up religious term.

Aren't all terms made-up?

 

[charlie sc]

The fallacy of the arguement is that it believes it's "objective".

Since you’ve used quotation marks, where in the video does he say objective?

 

[SalixIncendium]

I thought that karma was the result of choices that we make.
What causes us to make one choice instead of another?

Vasanas

 

[columbus]

Aren't all terms made-up?

Yes.
But some refer to concepts with objective existence, such as hydrogen and gravity.

It doesn't matter what you believe, hydrogen and gravity exist.
Other terms refer to things that have no objective existence, only a subjective belief. Such as God and scriptures and free will and horizons.
Tom

 

[SalixIncendium]

Yes.
But some refer to concepts with objective existence, such as hydrogen and gravity.

It doesn't matter what you believe, hydrogen and gravity exist.
Other terms refer to things that have no objective existence, only a subjective belief. Such as God and scriptures and free will and horizons.
Tom

So a better way to put it would have been "a term for a made up concept?"

And I can objectively prove the scriptures exist.

 

[David T]

Since you’ve used quotation marks, where in the video does he say objective?

he says I am a barking seal barking at a shadow and nothing more therefore that is all there is me barking at shadows behaviorly.

In that regard he is correct he lives in a fantasy of his own creation. That is not reality but a fantasy. This Is a bit like the idiotic "what is reality question" or "why is there something rather than nothing. "

This is an extremely old debate in Christianity. Calvin saw it as proof for god this individual sees it as proof as well for no god. . Calvin is a goofball. It's just christian philosophical crap repackaged is all. who cares? It deserves the response.....smart folks are idiots.

 

[12jtartar]

Of course. It's the only way the sin and salvation of Christianity makes sense, so the Christian must champion it to retain the validity of his religion.


Another illusion that doesn't exist: choosing/deciding. We come to the conclusion that X is right or wrong because we can do no differently. To do differently the causal events leading up to the conclusion would have to have been different. BUT THEY WEREN'T, hence our conclusion had to be what it was.

.

Skwim,
Stop a Moment and think about what you are saying. Are you telling me that you never make decisions, you do not decide to do one thing or another? That is just as preposterous as saying, I do not breath. Every day, you, as well as all humans, except for unconscious ones, make decisions, many times. For most people, their decisions are gratuitous, for their advantage, but for those who love their neighbor, they put the other person first, Philippians 2:2-4. This is one of the things that Jesus said would show the true religion, John 13:34,34. Romans 13:8-10. Agape!!!

 

[charlie sc]

he says I am a barking seal barking at a shadow and nothing more therefore that is all there is me barking at shadows behaviorly.

In that regard he is correct he lives in a fantasy of his own creation. That is not reality but a fantasy. This Is a bit like the idiotic "what is reality question" or "why is there something rather than nothing. "

This is an extremely old debate in Christianity. Calvin saw it as proof for god this individual sees it as proof as well for no god. . Calvin is a goofball. It's just christian philosophical crap repackaged is all. who cares? It deserves the response.....smart folks are idiots. View attachment 29341

Uhhh, ok so no answer to my question. This is about free-will, not necessarily about god. Your response was confusing if not barking nonsense are you the child in picture?

 

[David T]

People may find this one interesting:

Just Methodist vs Calvinism repackaged is new drag. Might as well talk about what is reality. Why is there something rather than nothing etc. We don't evolve nearly as quickly as we pretend we do.

 

[David T]

Uhhh, ok so no answer to my question. This is about free-will, not necessarily about god. Your response was confusing if not barking nonsense are you the child in picture?

Oh wow totally different than the Methodist vs Calvinism debate. How many centuries ago? Please same nonsense in new drag doesnt make it remotely valid orrid philosophy is still horrid philosophy regardless how it's dressed up.

Uhhh, ok so no answer to my question. This is about free-will, not necessarily about god. Your response was confusing if not barking nonsense are you the child in picture?

You can dress a pig any way you want to it's still a pig and really if you can't move beyond Wesely and Calvin it's just southern Baptist in Micky mouse clothing is all. Evolve doesn't mean change of clothing. Wait Mickey is a cross dresser omg!!

 

[Skwim]

Skwim,
Stop a Moment and think about what you are saying. Are you telling me that you never make decisions, you do not decide to do one thing or another?

In the sense that decisions/deciding are undirected by controlling influences, yes. Decisions amount to choosing, which I've already explained doesn't exist---see previous posts.

That is just as preposterous as saying, I do not breath.

I disagree.

Every day, you, as well as all humans, except for unconscious ones, make decisions, many times. For most people, their decisions are gratuitous, for their advantage, but for those who love their neighbor, they put the other person first, Philippians 2:2-4. This is one of the things that Jesus said would show the true religion, John 13:34,34. Romans 13:8-10. Agape!!!

Yes, I understand. In order for Christianity to hold together it's imperative that the concept of free will be true. So, there is no way Christians can embrace their religion while at the same time deny free will. I get it; you're stuck with need and irrationality.

.